DMing Problem - Don't Split the Group

[InsaneMaggot]

Allright, i'm not a good DM at all but i think i have an approach for this. tell me what you think.

Make 2 quests, seemingly unconnected.
For the lone wolf it would be from his tribe, something along the lines of "the kidnaped your sister!". he obviously is going to go alone and try to settle matter on his own.
While the rest of the group has an unconnected quest, like say, They have to kill a monster that is terrorizing the nearby town.
The rest plays out like this (and i would talk with the group beforehand, excepting the lone wolf so they know what's up) :
lone wolf will quest alone and ultimately find the guy who holds hist sister/whatever hostage, but it turns out that the guy is friggn powerfull.
While the other group happens to be near that spot still searching for the monster. If they have a ranger on board, maybe they can find the hideout quickly, but don't make it too obvious.
Lone wolf is nearly losing and at that moment the group arrives and helps him out, giving his character a reason to see the mistake in his racist nature.

Could be done in one setting, the entire thing would revolve around him (presumably what he wants) and gives his character growth. If he is a good rp'player like you said, i highly doubt that he will continue to play like before (with his current char)

Y/N, folks?

 

[Crystalite]

hm, rule number one:
Never ever play with people who take this to seriously, or get upset about the fate of their characters.
Believe me, it always always ends in drama.

You say this person is your friend, but you describe him as a selfish prick, when gaming at least. Why do you want to play with him? No, he is not a good player if he cannot understand that the enjoyment of the group is more important than some hype he has created about some make-believe figure of his.

If you absolutely must wait on his strange whims, then just make a solo campaign for him and this character, and play with the others in peace - without him.
That or just tell him how you feel, and that he should act like a grown up, or stuff it.

Just saying, get some perspective both of you.


Sorry if that is harsh, but this is a hobby of yours.
Nobody needs that kind of Diva in his free time.


Edit: That is also why you never let your players control the amount of power their characters have. Sorry, that is just not a clever thing to do. Sooner or later you will be calling down tactical nukes on their heads without scratching them, trust me.
Characters should be more or less on par with one another and slightly less powerfull than the campaign demands, forcing them to think and improvise.

 

[Kuilui]

My advice is lay down the law. YOUR IN CHARGE NOT HIM but do it nicely and in front of everyone else. I say in front of everyone else because he'll probably try to spin it with his other friends don't let that happen. He sounds like a spoiled brat from your responses. if you say anything even remotely negative about his behavior or his character he freaks out on you? Your friend sounds like he has the emotional stability of a spoiled seven year old.Tell him the story is around the group and he has to deal with it. If he leaves than screw the whiner. I've been in similar situations, your better off not being around people like that. It'll only end up blowing up at some point, you might as well control when it does.

Either that or let him go off on his own and just deal with it. Don't make his stuff all that interesting though. Give him what he wants but make it very uninteresting and lame. Careful what you wish for right?

 

[James Crook]

Uh, excuse me, but may I ask a question?
What's DMing? What game are you talking about? I'm not so good with acronyms, especially in gaming, sorry :L

 

[WyndWalker02]

I suppose I don't understand how the player's outwitting the DM. Take the example you gave above, for instance. You claimed that if he went off on his own and you got him into an encounter, he'd whine until you let him make a perception roll, then go into stealth mode to avoid any baddies. You know that there's ways around that, right?

Put a caster on his trail, for example (faerie fire, see invisibility, etc, certainly not tough to locate a mundane stealth ability), or a rogue with better stealth skills. There's always someone more powerful. Maybe the issue is that you need to be throwing stronger things against him when he goes all Diva and wanders off on his own, or simply using the old DM technique of Fudging. Make crap up. Use some stealthy critter and lie about your rolls, making sure your (bad) player fails his rolls. It's really not that tough.

Beyond that, just suck it up and deal with the situation like an adult. If your player wants to be a whining pain in the ass, sit him down and tell him straight. Point out that he's being a child when he gets all "emotional" about you "picking on him/his character." You like being around him when this is how he acts? It's a game. If he can't deal with being mature and group-oriented for a group-oriented activity, then he simply shouldn't be there.

 

[Demlemon]

As Wyndwalker said and I'd been thinking the whole time

Although I have never played d&d in my whole life, and I only know a small bit about what it is, there has to be some kind of spell/class etc. that can cancel his stealth or detect him during stealth. Add one of those to a group of baddies that he can't take alone (Just make it a close fight, but obviously one-sided when you know it's intended) and see how he reacts, maybe give him a chance to flee the battle, but desperately needing something the main group has to cure him from the fight. Special magical poison? Sounds cool

 

[Xanadu84]

There are heavy handed approaches if necessary, telling him that what he is doing is off-camera, telling him to stop, and kicking him out of the group are last case scenarios, although before that, I would say that you should talk to him about changing his character into something more group-friendly. However the game will probably be better if you take other more subtle approaches

First and foremost, there are levels for a reason. There are plenty of monsters that are designed to be taken on by a a party of 4 varied classes. All you have to do is allow the player to go off on there own, and encounter a perfectly reasonable creature from your world that he can't handle alone. Is he playing a wizard? Well throw in some decent level Drow rouges with sneak attack and a bunch of attacks of opportunity and significant magical resistances. Is he a bruising barbarian? Find something with a lot of charm, stun, and illusion, or magical defenses like Stoneskin and mirror image. A sneaky rouge might run into something with tremorsense to negate the sneakiness, and a bunch of things immune to critical hits. Or perhaps another party member has a silver/ghosttouch/adamantine/whatever weapon, and the lone wolf realizes that hes stumbled into some werewolfs/ghosts/golems/whatever. To a large extent, even just throwing in a monster that's a reasonable danger to a party of 4 should be able to present an impossible task to a lone character, especially once you factor in those flanking bonuses. The challenge doesn't have to be limited to combat either. Make sure you include a lot of deadly, crippling traps that a rouge needs to disable, that delivers poison that must be cured magically by a cleric, a key plot item beneath a church that will only let a party in if they get the testimony of a adventurer who worships that God, Arcane writing leading to an item that can only be unlocked by magical means, tasks that must be performed by a certain race, favores needed from another characters patron, challenges that require certain skills...the possibilities are endless. Just 1 locked door that needs to be picked and then opened by channeling divine power will stop a lone wolf player cold, and if the big bad boss's massive treasure vault is behind that door...

You could also introduce a little linearity. Variety is the spice of life, so if you have been doing a big sandboxy game, make the next major plot point be in a liniar dungeon crawl. Theres really no way to go off to the side when the entire quest is backwards and forwards. Maybe he will get used to functioning as a fellow party member, and the problem will dissipate.

Also try going with the flow. Just once, throw in a plot point where some baddie group are invoking racist rhetoric and subverting his species, and the party has to oppose them, both to help the discriminated against party, and further their main goals. Let the party get all friendly with the lone wolf characters race at large, and just wait for them to jump on the character-growth plot ball. Maybe the character sees a fellow party member save a child of his race when he wasn't able to, and he decides that maybe all non-his species arn't that bad. Or give rewards for cooperation. Maybe he wants to multiclass and needs a mentor. Or maybe his leaders want him to learn about other races, or want him to help with the parties goals so the other party members patrons owe his patrons a very important favor, and failing to help leads to a serious dressing down by his superiors, and serious repercussions for the people he cares about. War makes for strange bedfellow, and failure to make those enemies into friends can lead to disaster. Makes for some good intrigue too.

You can also give him some subtle hints. Give the character his side-quest. Maybe he defeats a monster or two, but because he went away from the main party, his side quest involves a lot of waiting and traveling. Then go back to the main party, and run your quest. Give them most of the spotlight, loot, and experience. If this guy is so dedicated to roleplaying his character realistically, he won't be able to complain that the adventuring that the main party is doing in the most important areas that have the most information about terrible things happening and that the rest of the party thinks is the first priority happen to also have the most rewards. He will change his tune pretty quickly.

If nothing works, then just talk to the player. Most overly focused players think that they subscribe to the idea that fun is the only thing that matters, even when they really don't. Tell them outright that there character is making the game a lot less fun. Don't blame him for it or point any fingers, just tell him the truth, and try to figure out a way around it.

Basically, make his racism and desire to be alone interesting to the plot. Don't try to force him to act like something he is not, make the character decide that rationally he has to put aside his objections for a larger goal. That's the best way to eliminate racism, even in real life. Concoct scenarios where he needs a party, and make him believe that it is his characters idea for him to do so, not yours. If you need other ideas, just think of fiction where a person is a loner or a bigot, and he is forced to work alongside those he dislikes for a more important goal.

This is all things I can gather based on general RPG knowledge. If you could tell us the system, the setting, and a little background like the classes in the party, other parties personal goals, and significant NPCs, we could probably help you a lot more. I'm kinda assuming D+D because it seems the most likely.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I had a problem like this when I ran a campaign with my friends. The one who played the rogue was constantly going too far ahead and doing his own thing, leaving everyone to just watch his little adventures while trying to catch up.

 

[SixWingedAsura]

Talk with him.

Tell him outright that his actions are screwing the game up. If he wants to roleplay, encourage it, but make sure that he knows that he needs to mesh with the group. He can't have his own adventure and he can't split the group up. It's not fair to the other players and to you, as a DM. Let him know that he if he still continues to make life difficult for everyone, his character may end up on business end of a pinpoint lightning strike.

If he's really that good of a friend, he'll understand.

 

[katosmullet]

Your problem seems pretty easy to handle in game. You control all the NPCs, right? Then have an elite NPC of his race (monarch, witch doctor, whatever - don't have specifics) instruct him to stay with the other PCs. There are a number of ways to play that:

- one of the PCs resembles a hero of the race's prophecy tied to your overarching plot (you must help him, lone wolf)
- there's some heretofore unrevealed history between one of the PCs families and the elite; said elite instructs lone wolf to stay with them and help
- the lone wolf's race doesn't trust humans and so they demand he stick to them like glue and report back
- assuming the overarching objective is battling some kind of major evil and not "find loot, get rich," the elite believes the threat will eventually turn towards his people and thus demands lone wolf help the humans stop it now

Lone wolf was must therefore obey orders and stick with the group. If he doesn't, there should be consequences. First time he goes out on his own, have members of his race catch him, scold him, and let him know they plan to report him. He doesn't listen and goes off on his own again? Then he gets exiled from his race. Take all of his equipment and brand him. If there are powers or abilities tied to being a member, these should be stripped too. Maybe some curses for good measure. If he continues to go off on his own, he should be vulnerable enough to be killed easily at this point. Possibly by members of his own race who think such a willful, arrogant individual who brings shame to his family / his people by defying orders should die.

Alternately, after the second infraction, the elite could impose the magic rings solution or other maguffi on the lone wolf (must stay close to the other character of be paralyzed, violently ill, dying). It's not deus ex machina in that instance; it's a consequence of the player's actions.

If he's pushed you to play the exile / stripped of powers & honors card, offer him a way to redeem himself through traveling with the main group and accomplishing the larger objectives. That way his personal agenda happens to be the same as the group's and he can only achieve it with them.

If he's really such a great role-player as you insist, spending more time with the other PCs should slowly overcome his racism, even if he only likes these particular humans. And, after all, growth and personal development of a character is supposed to be what role-playing is about, right?

Hope that helps.

 

[Redford Blade]

Hey guys Ive never played d and d but it seems like fun, can I get a fast 101 on how to play this thing? some links would be nice

Start here [http://wizards.com/Company/Brands/DnD.aspx]. There is a link near the bottom about DnD Encounters, a common event where a game store or other venue runs a short session or series of session, and new players are not only welcome, but actively encouraged. You shouldn't need to bring anything, though $10 or so might come in handy should you need to purchase a set of snazzy dice for the game (usually sold on site). The folks there will be better able to explain the game, how it is played, and how to get the most from it far better than I ever could.

Uh, excuse me, but may I ask a question?
What's DMing? What game are you talking about? I'm not so good with acronyms, especially in gaming, sorry :L

DMing = Dungeon-Mastering, also known as running a tabletop role-playing game. The term comes from Dungeons and Dragons, unarguably the most well-known tabletop game, but is often used to describe the person in charge of any RPG. Similar terms are Storyteller (for White Wolf's products) or Game-Master (abbreviated as GM).

ON TOPIC

You've been given all the best general advice there is, but I can understand that you are hesitant to confront this player directly. Still, the situation will not improve, and may actively worsen, the longer you allow this to go on. From what you've said, I doubt that he is that great a roleplayer, and instead is merely a clever power-gamer. A roleplayer understands that some games (especially DnD/Pathfinder/d20) are cooperative, and that when the chips are down, the party has to stick together and work as a team. A power-gamer diva just chooses the best powers and feats so that they can ignore the other PCs and go their own way. To deal with the latter, you'll likely need the assistance of other power-gamers.

Try these places, as they will be able to give more specific advice. Be ready to share your problem-player's character sheet with them, in addition to summarizing the general direction of your campaign.

Official Pathfinder forums [http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG]
"DMing Made Easy" and the Wizards community [http://community.wizards.com/gargs454/go/tag/view/blog_post/DM%27ing+Made+Easy]

Failing all that, you can always message me on these forums, and I'm willing to take the time to learn about your game and offer more specific advice. Us DMs/GMs/Storytellers have to stick together; we need parties just as much as players do.

 

[Double A]

If you really want to not piss him off so much, and since you don't just want to tell him to stop being such a ponce...

Make the Big Bad about to destroy his entire country (not just his village) along with whatever human place he wants to take over. Then he'll be forced to stop trying to go solo because only an entire party or a really high level character would be able to take down the boss.

Alternatively, just have a sidequest to his village that results in it being protected by magic tree wizards or something until he can come back. Make sure he doesn't have the need to actually run back home.

 

[AngryMongoose]

Here's how you handle split groups. Let the PCs leave, but make them NPCs controlled offscreen 'til their job is done, and in the meanwhile give the player a mercenary to control. Splitting the party is not an option. If it's that important to the player he can control some random 'til his character comes to his senses.

Worse yet, he hates when DMs use deus ex's to keep a story going. If I try using some earth shattering event which he can't roll against like a cave-in to keep the group together, he just bitches at me and calls it bullshit. And even if he accepts it, it's only a temporary solution. Once they get out of said cave, he'll just head out in the other direction without even saying a word.

Or, alternatively, rock falls the bastard. He's intentionally making your job difficult, so punish him for it, give him inappropriately high level encounters, see to it no decent loot drops for him ect. If he insists on breaking the game to 'stay in character' making him play drinking-in-a-bar-for-hours adventure. If he's gonna be a dick you don't have to be a nice GM.

Or... y'know, kick him out the group.

 

[Sarah Frazier]

I had a similar problem with a pair of players in a decently sized group. They would go off on their own adventure and the GM 9/10 times followed them with rapt interest while the other players sat for hours with maybe a "So what are you doing? Make a roll. Nothing interesting happened" no matter what those other players tried to do. Nothing seemed to work even though some of the rest of the party WANTED to be involved or at least have something to do.

Lesson to be learned? It's hard to force people to work together if they're determined not to, and sometimes it's best for the group to not even try. If a small group keeps wanting their own adventure at the expense of the rest of the group, let them run their own game.

 

[Dragunai]

"Hey you guys want to play Dungeons and Dragons?"

"Isn't that the game where you get a bunch of friends together, grab some pizza, a few beers and work together to defeat enemies and complete team based adventures?"

"Yes that's the one!"

"I'm in but I want my own story, not to work with any one else in the group and while I'm at it, I've pissed in the beer and eaten the pizza."

Get rid of him. D&D is a fun group based game, if he wants to be a douche he can be a douche in his own D&D group. Don't let him ruin everyone elses fun!

Obligatory:


It's a bloody nuisance when someone plays a prick but it can also be fun as long as you challenge them appropriately. I always play a difficult character but to be honest you could force him to reroll if it gets too bad, just say the party has exiled him.

That is the most upbeat and awesome song I ever heard about D&D and ... well the only one... but it was awesome. Although I DO take offense at the remarks about the Thief because thats MY class in D&D hahaha.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Everyone has been giving some really good advise that I'll definitely be using and mildly altering at my own discretion. Since I can't respond to everyone's comments, I just want to say thanks to everyone who gave their opinions on my problem. Not saying I'm abandoning the thread, just wanted to make sure people knew I appreciate it, especially as the thread continues.

 

[Saelune]

So the character goes off, but YOu dont have to keep DMing him. He then has to make a new character or bail.

 

[Kohake]

"Worse yet, he hates when DMs use deus ex's to keep a story going"
Then don't keep the story going. If he ruins things, don't fix them for him. Let him have his way for while, and eventually the entier groupe will be bored. And they will be blaiming him, not you. If my players want to split up? Fine. I'm not going to force them to have fun. It requiers extra effort to run two lesser groupes simultainiously, but what happens if the I just go on as usual?

The players will suffer. They will have to compeat for my attention. One groupe will be bored to tears if the other gets all the attention. I could split my attention equally, but why? It's their fault for splitting up. In fact, if it's just one guys fault, I'll tell him something like "I have 4 players so I can't give you more than 25% of my time". Quietly waiting for 75% of the session is dead boring. If I kill his character with deus ex, he'll be pissed at me. If I give him less time for splitting up he only has himself to blame. Don't punish him in the game for being a jerk IRL. Punish him IRL.

If you've planned cool plot hooks and epic encounters, let the players who are behaving propperly have them. How fun is it to run around alone if nothing is happening? In my experience: if you let people split up, and one of them finds something exciting, the other will want to be there as soon as possible to join. So I tell them "though shit, should have thought of that before you ran of on your own. You don't know this is happening, so your character has no reason to go there".

Remove all conflict from the missbehaving players. Don't challenge him and don't reward him. No dragon, no tressure. If he wants to kill someone, make them a weakling, and make sure they don't have any money. It'll be boring as hell. Imagen if you only got to play 15 minutes every hour, and during those 15 minutes NOTHING IS HAPPENING.



I have done a lot of DMing when I was younger. I think I was in second grade or something when we started. Obviously, we didn't know all the rules (9 years old and all) but you run in to a lot of the same issues. I didn't handel it very well back then, but I learned a lot. One important thing is that you need to be able to draw a line. If you're players can't handel that they aren't fit for role playing in groupes. Diffrnet people have diffrent preferances. You can't make someone like something they don't.

If your friend is an immature prick, you're screwed. But assuming he isn't the first thing I'd do is to tell him everything you wrote in this topic. He needs to undetrstand that changing is nessecary. Tell him that you are doing your best to please your players, but that it's just not possible and he is the main issue. Don't say that he's wrong but make sure he sees things your way.

It's a lot like bargaining for a deal. If he's not willing to pay more, and you're not willing to sell for less there won't be a deal. If you explain to him that you can't and won't sell it that cheap, he is more likely to meet you half-way. You aren't the only one who'd lose somthing without the deal. There is a common dynamic where it's up to the DM to make things work.(probably because they are the most ambitiout) Refuse to accept this role. Tell your player(s) that it's up to them to make it work.

I know what it's like to want to go easy on your friends, becasue your firends, but roleplaying isn't that easy. Everyone has difrent tastes and you need to be in agreement for things to run smoothly. Co-operation is mandatory.

If you can proove to that you're really trying to make things work(you could ask what he thinks you should do about it or tell him that you've tried asking other DMs) but he isn't trying to make things work, he'll feel guilty for ruening it for you.(assuming he's a good friend)

Some players genuinly believe that players should stay 100% in character all the time and if they aren't allowed to then it's just not fun. I've had troubles with this and it sucks. It sucks because there isn't really a good solution. Perhaps you could make him write a new character or re-write his character so that this becomes a none-issue, but other than that there really is only two options. Either one of you gives in or one of you quits. A player who won't enjoy the game unless they are 100% in character isn't likely to give in, and if the DM gives in it ruines the game for everyone, even the player who refused to co-operate in the first place. It has to get really bad before someone would willingly quit, but if the issue is unresolved it just sucks for everyone.(especially you though)

 

[docSpitfire]

If you're a good enough DM

The OP said this is the first campaign in which he's been DM
He's only level 1 still...

Other than that I don't think your solution would be terrible if he occasionally wandered off, but this sounds like solo for the rest of the campaign if the player gets his way.

Whatever the OP decides, making a decision and just implementing it in game without discussing your problem with the players is the best sure fire way to go wrong.

He may just go "oh I'm sorry I didn't know" and problem's solved.
Proposing a story driven reason why he would stay with the group may make that conversation easier as well...
i.e. perhaps lead him to believe they hold information he requires and they are willing to trade it in exchange for services, or he has to earn their trust first or something like that. A higher authority has remanded the player into the party's custody for some bizarre reason... who knows.

 

[Starke]

tl;dr: Basically what I'm asking is how do you guys keep you're group together? What are ways to avert group-splitting?

Generally speaking? Don't. If he wants to write up his adventures while he's off on his own, that's fine, but don't split the party up, and don't give him XP for that.

Having a character who's a lone wolf tends to work best in campaigns when one of the players won't be around reliably. If he's there consistently, I'd suggest you work with him to revise his character into something more consistent with the group.

As for using Deus Ex Machina? Don't if you can avoid it. I understand how, when you're on the spot you need a way out, but it's still a somewhat amateur narrative device. If you're asking how you want to avoid it, one good technique is to plot through what you want to do with your campaign, and make sure there's some "trap doors" you can use when players go off the rails.

For example: If you're going out in the woods hunting a monster of some kind, before they leave town have them run across a ranger who is also on the trail of this thing. If they decide they want to team up, they can, if they don't, then you can bring him back in later when they miss clues to tracking it, or if they run afoul of something else and need a rescue. It's not a Deus Ex Machana, because the character is already established, but he remains a quick narrative tool to keep the party on the intended rails.

You probably only want to use him once, though, so if it's just missing a clue, keep dropping various ones, until the players catch one.