Do Bat-fans actually like Batman, or do they actually want Az-Bat/BatPunisher?

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Gorrath

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TheLaughingMagician said:
People also thought Rorshach was the hero in The Watchmen. Some people are just dumb. I think most bat fans were upset with Batfleck shooting folk.
Rorshach was a hero in the watchman. The label hero is most often applied to those who do murderous things with extreme disregard for their own safety while often pushing an ideology many would find agreeable. Rorshach was all of that. But that's what makes Watchmen so good; we can see the real face of heroism reflected in the moral sacrifices of Ozymandias, the destitution of Rorshach and his ultimate sacrifice, the naive but morally noble acts of Nite Owl. Real heroism isn't pretty.

OT: As a general fan of the Bat, I thoroughly dislike murderous versions of him. What is especially silly about BvS is that, if he's willing to shoot people with guns, it undermines the whole character concept and a lot of his actions become nonsensical. Why toss batarangs around if you've no problem with just blasting people? He just becomes the Punisher at that point, a Punisher who isn't even internally consistent.
 

Shoggoth2588

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I don't really mind when Batman uses a gun but it's got to be an absolutely pivotal part of a plot for it to work for me.

One of the two moments Batman used a gun was in a flash-back sequence in the series, Batman Beyond. It was used to show why Batman quit and involved an aged Batman (in the beyond suit) failing to save a woman using his traditional means of beating the Hell out of the people who kidnapped her. Beaten and cornered, Batman grabs a fallen gun and aims it at a nearby thug. He doesn't fire the gun but after the encounter, he is so disgusted with himself that he shelves the suit and says "never again".

The next example and another great one of Batman using a gun takes place towards the end of Final Crisis. Darkseid had finally solved the anti-life equation, Orion was dead and Batman seemed to have the only means of stopping the end of everything. He set aside his one rule to shoot Darkseid with a single bullet designed to kill a God and he hit. He died immediately afterward thanks to Omega Beams.

I'm fine with Batman using a gun just make it matter. Make it a huge, pivotal, climactic scene instead of turning Batman into...well, The Punisher. If these guys really want to make a Punisher movie I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to...nobody has adapted Circle of Blood to a film. The problem with someone like Zack Snyder making a Punisher film though would be that War Zone was the best film of all time so it would be absolutely impossible to top it...
 

EHKOS

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I don't care about Batman. I DO care about his rogue gallery. I enjoy the villains so much more because they can be very well written. In the Arkham games the most fun I had was interacting with them or finding the nods to the ones who didn't make it in.
 

Chaos Isaac

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Saltyk said:
However, Batman should not kill. To do that means crossing a line. To become like the man who killed his parents. Batman should not kill. Simply because he needs to be better than that. Better than Joe Chill.

In the same way, Superman should not kill. He is so Over-Powered that the minute he starts killing, all troubles should be over. Lex is dead. Joker is dead. Deathstroke is dead. Every villain on Earth is dead. Think of Injustice.
I think a lot of the problem is mentality like this, where there's no shades of gray. You either don't kill ANYONE and let mass murderer's run free all the time. Or you kill someone and become the new world dictator/comic hitler.

I can easily argue that Batman is already worse then Joe Chill. Joe Chill killed, what, two people? Okay, dick move, not a good guy. But Batman? He's indirectly allowed thousands of people to die by not stopping the Joker, who he knows is just going to escape, hatch another plan, and kill more people. It's what he does. Batman is complicit in this. He doesn't even make a special Joker prison for the bastard to hold him away forever.
 

cthulhuspawn82

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I'm fine with Batman's "one rule" being that it's a comic book. In the real world, the Punisher would be the only practical, and moral superhero. It depends on whether you think it's immoral to not do something that is within your power to save/protect lives. I could argue it makes Batman immoral to not kill people he knows will continue to hurt others.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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I can only speak for myself, but as a pretty ardent Bat-fan I was disgusted with the portrayal of Batman in BvS, and I don't see how fans of the character could have a different reaction. Nolan had Batman walk down the street in the middle of the day in a big rubber suit and fist fight Bane in the midst of a mob, and Snyder turned him into a ruthless murderer. That's not Batman.

Batman has sworn himself to a crusade of justice and the triumph of good over evil at any cost within the confines of morality. Wayne became the Batman the day his parents died, and swore to stop that same tragedy from happening to anyone else, nor would he stoop so low as to use the same tactics and tools of the criminal; something BvS Batman does with abandon. Batman's code goes so deep that he often follows it at the expense of his family (i.e. not killing the Joker after he murders Jason Todd.) Batman is allowed to hate. He's allowed to fantasize about murdering the Joker in more and more painful ways (i.e. Hush), but he doesn't kill. That's what makes him Batman. Break bones, interrogate, beat into a pulp, but no murder.

I'm still waiting for the first really good on-screen Batman. My Batman is exemplified in the version from the animated series and in the comics run Hush by Jim Lee and to a slightly lesser extent Morrison's run which I'm working on now. Batman is supposed to be a lithe, athletic, brilliant, strong, human being. Not a brute in power armor. Just once I want to see Batman actually use his detective skills and swing around on a damn grappling hook in a costume that doesn't look like it's made from rubber and metal plates.
 

thepyrethatburns

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Gorrath said:
OT: As a general fan of the Bat, I thoroughly dislike murderous versions of him. What is especially silly about BvS is that, if he's willing to shoot people with guns, it undermines the whole character concept and a lot of his actions become nonsensical. Why toss batarangs around if you've no problem with just blasting people? He just becomes the Punisher at that point, a Punisher who isn't even internally consistent.
A Batman who runs over people with tanks in Arkham Knight or attaches several pounds of explosives in Bad Blood (and don't give me bull that he carefully measured the amount needed to precisely disable the jetpack without injuring the pilot. That just goes into Bat God territory.) isn't much better than a Batman who uses guns in terms of murder.
 

thepyrethatburns

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Thinking about it, some of the other issues in addition to what I mentioned are this.

Batman is an asshole.

Shortly after Zero Hour, I read a team-up between the new Starman, Swamp Thing and Batman (something about restoring Solomon Grundy). Throughout the first issue of this team-up, Batman was an unrelenting asshole to everybody. I asked my friend who was into Batman what was wrong with him and he just said that this was what he was like in all guest appearances now. Unfortunately, this idea spread until it started hitting his own comic as well. Everybody tries to talk about what a great humanitarian Bruce Wayne is and how vital a part of the JLA he is. However, except for brief moments, he's portrayed as a whiny asshole who is a massive control freak. Every time he doesn't get his way in the JLA, he quits or just does what he wants anyway. Batman used to work with the police but now he just does whatever he feels like and everybody just goes along with it. At some point, having a Batman who is a completely anti-social asshole should come back on him hard.

Perhaps this is due to the readership. Maybe the Bat-Fans are people who are completely impotent in their real lives and they enjoy reading about a Batman who can do anything and treat everyone else badly. Perhaps this is due to lazy writing. Whatever the reason, this is something that has to stop. Batman has to learn to play nice with the people who are his allies.

Power Creep

I realize that I mentioned how Batman could use his wealth more creatively but I want to revisit how his infinite wealth becomes two character flaws.

Pre-Crisis Batman was still just an "old money" rich boy. He had a finite level of means. Post-Crisis Batman now has an infinite bankroll which he can use to create Batman Inc/Satellites that spew forth self-replicating robots/The Watchtower/etc

Yet, Gotham is still a slum.

When Batman is established as having enough money to outright buy Gotham and improve the city immensely but he chooses to just punch people in the face, this becomes a character issue. The issue becomes more dramatic when you realize that all of the people he is beating up are either the poor or people who have stereotypical representations of mental illness. I imagine that this is one of the reasons that the goons in Batman are all white males. Having an issue where a rich white boy in a bat-suit beats information out of a poor black man might set off a massive ****storm.

This is simply lazy writing and needs to be cut out. Personally, I would like to see Batman go through the same thing that Tony Stark did ages ago where Stark lost everything and was living in a cardboard box. I'd like to see a Batman who wasn't just able to reach in his utility belt and throw diamonds at people but had to make do with limited means. I'd like to see a Bruce Wayne that had to actually address the money side of issues and had to spend time actually running Wayne Enterprises. Somebody who actually has to interact with people without the cape and cowl AND without being able to punch his way out of a problem.

Lateral Thinking

As I said earlier, Bruce Wayne needs to start finding more creative ways to help the people of Gotham than just face-punching. Believe it or don't, Pre-Crisis Batman had whole issues devoted to him helping through philanthropy. Sometimes, it was a convoluted way to flush out a criminal organization (The Kangaroo Race story comes to mind here) but, sometimes, it was also a way to say "Hey, funding a free clinic so people don't have to turn to crime in order to afford medical aid helps cut down crime."

When is the last time Batman actually thought this laterally? When is the last time we actually had Batman look at the conditions that make a white male say "Hey, working for the Joker is the best career path available to me." and try to address them in a non-face-punchy way?

If we MUST keep the infinite wealth angle, I'd like to see a Batman who occasionally uses that wealth for something other than diamond-encrusted Batarangs. It doesn't have to be every issue. Most issues of Pre-Crisis Batman didn't focus on the philanthropy either. Just every so often, use it as a way that Bruce Wayne can help Gotham in a way that Batman can't.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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If there's one thing that's always bugged me about Batman, it's that Bruce Wayne- with all the power he wields as head of Wayne Enterprises- has apparently never, ever made an effort to help Gotham contain these mass-murdering megalomaniacs that he keeps beating up but leaving alive. Arkham Asylum might as well have removed its gates for all the ease it seems that psychotic criminals had in escaping; couldn't Bruce, with his incredible insight into the criminal mind, help design and implement an institution with safeguards that could contain them?

That's why I think that, deep within himself, Batman wanted those super-criminals to be able to escape, so he would have "worthy prey" to continually put himself against. (Of course, from a real-life standpoint, all those escapes were so that the writers wouldn't have to continually come up with new and interesting villains.)
 

karkashan

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AzBats actually wasn't that bad of a Batman before he went full nutso due to the angry ancestor spirit hypnosis subliminal message whatever the hell was going on with him later on in the storyline. I think if they had been serious in actually giving the mantle over to Azrael they could've made him into a Batman that readers could've enjoyed.

grimabepraised
 

Smooth Operator

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Well I don't particularly hang onto the Batman IP, I've watched their stuff from time to time and it always looked like a joke until Batman Begins. That trilogy is probably the only thing I enjoy out of the IP, and it is probably where I'll stop watching this stuff again.

Comic book cheese is not my cup of tea, also have no idea what an AzBats might be.