Do members of the military get too much respect? What profession do you respect the most?

[PhunkyPhazon]

A person earns respect for their actions, not because they signed their name on a sheet of paper. So by that philosophy, a lot of soldiers truly do earn respect, others seem to think the title is enough.

 

[Keith Reedy]

I've never really been swayed by the whole "soldiers are heroes" argument.

If they were directly protecting their homeland against foreign invaders, then yes, that would be pretty damn heroic. If WW3 started, then every last soldier who fought to protect my country would earn my eternal respect. Hell, I'd probably enlist myself.

But soldiers fighting in current conflicts? I don't wish to sound ungrateful here, but somebody who goes to far-flung countries to kill the natives and is driven more by the pay than a pressing need to protect the motherland... isn't that the definition of a mercenary?

You may not have realized this when you opened that stupid mouth of yours but no good soldier joins the army to go kill natives they go to places like afghanistan because they have to its their duty.

And you must have a pretty stupid view to think that the military went to the middle east to kill the natives even if the actual reasons were pretty pitiful

 

[The Black Ghost]

Respect is never a bad thing, but I do think they get a dispraportionate amount of attention. Part of that is our social culture, but they also kind of deserve it for all the crap they put up with. Also, they need these kinds of benefits cuz the government doesnt provide them! many vets have pTSD of some kind and have trouble re-integrating, so I see it as giving them a break.

But I have a feeling this bugs them quite a bit more than anyone else being constantly bombarded with this patriotic stuff.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

"Signing up to go over and kick the shit out of innocents who never did anything to you just because a tiny group of fuckwits did something is just plain wrong and I have no respect for those who go along with it because its their orders."

That statement shows how blatantly ignorant you are about the Military and the current conflicts it's in. Shooting back at someone who's shooting at you is not "kicking the shit out of innocents". Does abuse happen? Of course it does; you place people in a stressful situation where they're trying to get out alive and locals are lying to them, people are gonna tend to get angry and go overboard. Argue all you want over whether the wars are justified or not, but pretending everyone joins so they can be the world' biggest bully is just pathetic.

And before you ask, yes, I am in the Military, and yes, I have deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[ProtoformX]

No. No we do not get too much respect. Actors, doctors (responsible for 70% of homicides in the United States due to negligence), politicians, and firefighters (you'll all probably be shocked, but it's true. Those guys sit around the firehouse 2-3 days a week, and then have 2-3 full weeks off. Their line of work isn't even THAT dangerous either. No worse than a cop. 9/11 gave the Nation an unnatural perception of how dangerous Firefighters have it, and how much they 'sacrifice'.) do.

The coversation you described may occur in SOME places of the United States, but not where I live. I (and my fellow Soldiers) only get condescending statements, and worse than dirt treatment in this liberal state.

We deploy for 12 months (count em) and even spend most of our time training away from our families when we are in the CONUS.

Let's not forget that we're sent over-seas, asked to fight a war, and accomplish a mission... And then criticized every step of the way.

People of America: Do you want the job done? Or do you just want it to look like we're getting the job done? We've made it look like we're getting the job done for ten years now. How much longer do you want us to keep dancing this dance?

Yea, fuck the doctors. It's not like we need them or anything. :/

Also, I'd like to see a source for that 70% of homicides bit. Because I don't believe it. And what you're calling negligence is more than likely simply a ba situation. Atleast in the UK, actual negligence is fairly low.

You're absolutely right. I misspoke.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

http://www.naturodoc.com/library/public_health/doctors_cause_death.htm

14,748 murders a year

250,000 deaths from negligence a year.

Doctors are overpaid.

The first link has nothing to do with Doctors and mortality rates. The second link is just bullshit blame throwing.

Have you any idea how complicated it is to diagnose and treat illness? It doesn't come with a handy chart that narrows it down perfectly each time. Not being able to save a patient =/= negligence or murder. Even though they get tried for it.

And most of the cases of mixing up medication or misdiagnosis is down to overworking. Doctors and nurses are hellishly overworked.

The first link is to crime reports and statistics. Murders included. I was admitting, and demonstrating my error in my original statement.

The second link (if you cared to read the sources) is taken from reports of actual documented negligence. Not reports of negligence, or "unavoidable negligence", or assumed negligence. These were people who were FINE, and then a doctor did something, and they were no longer fine. Get it?

Put the two links together (via magic, or whatever works for you) and you'll notice negligence mortality rates are much MUCH higher than homicide (again, demonstrating my original statement was incorrect).

Learn to read, and you wouldnt't have been so confused as to make such an asinine statement.

 

[Greni]

You may not have realized this when you opened that stupid mouth of yours but no good soldier joins the army to go kill natives they go to places like afghanistan because they have to its their duty.

And you must have a pretty stupid view to think that the military went to the middle east to kill the natives even if the actual reasons were pretty pitiful

Now now, play nice; or you might accidentally be branded as a huge, arrogant, self-centered prick for foul-mouthing another player who in no way aggravated you.

 

[NoOne852]

Not at all. The military is respected and rightfully so. There's no rule for it, people just do it, as you should for anyone who risks their life to carry out the orders of the country, even if they don't agree with it.
Anyone willing to risk their life to do what they believe is right earns my respect, even if I don't agree with them. (I don't include those who just do stupid actions cause they want to be the next viral video on youtube or something just because they're...well, stupid)
Outside the millitary my higher priorities of respect are police, firefighters, paramedics. I say that because the paramedics don't put themselves in danger, however, they perform wonders and save lives.

 

[ProtoformX]

Not at all. The military is respected and rightfully so. There's no rule for it, people just do it, as you should for anyone who risks their life to carry out the orders of the country, even if they don't agree with it.
Anyone willing to risk their life to do what they believe is right earns my respect, even if I don't agree with them. (I don't include those who just do stupid actions cause they want to be the next viral video on youtube or something just because they're...well, stupid)
Outside the millitary my higher priorities of respect are police, firefighters, paramedics. I say that because the paramedics don't put themselves in danger, however, they perform wonders and save lives.

Paramedics actually do put themselves in danger. Far more than firefighters. EMTs are the ones who don't put themsleves in danger.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

You know the scene. Two people are introducing themselves to each other.

Person A: What do you do?
Person B: I'm actually a Vet. Marine Corps.
Person A: Oh wow. Thank you for your service.


Now that's all well and good, but I've always thought that not only do members of the military get too much unconditional respect, but that other people who provide invaluable services don't get near enough. Sure there are the basic Police and Fire Fighters, but they get plenty.

So...there's a limited amount of 'respect' to be given out, and you're proposing that military veterans get too much of it?

Also, you're overestimating the amount of respect that police get. You don't see two people on a street corner, talking about how a firefighter pulled someone out of a burning building and overhear one say, "Man, fuck the eff-dee!"

I'm talking about people like Pathologists, Teachers, EMTs, Surgeons, social workers, etc.

Well, let's see. I've heard teaching cited so often as one of the most under-appreciated professions in America that it's coming full circle. Meager salaries are a problem, though, so I'll give you that. Same goes for social workers.

I've heard EMTs not getting respected as professions, so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

The average cardiovascular surgeon gets over a quarter million dollars per year. They provide lifesaving services, but considering that they make more money per year than six average citizens combined, you sort of assume that they don't need additional nonspecific expressions of gratitude.

Wait...pathologists and surgeons made the list, but 'regular' doctors didn't?

These people certainly do as much individually, if not more than any one member of the military. Plus as a whole I guarantee the previously mentioned professions have done more good than the military.

Ugh. Mate, a word of advice: when you're trying to make an argument, don't drop in things that are likely to turn people against you no matter what else you might be saying. Case in point, talking about how we should respect X profession more because it has, "...done more good than the military."

I'm sure I'll get the "But the military risks their own lives" argument. However, not only do less than 15% of military members ever even see anything even close to resembling real combat, but emergency response and doctors put themselves on the line constantly.

Well, might as well try and nip this one in the bud. I'll use your 'Person A, Person B' conversation for an example.

Person A: What do you do?
Person B: I'm a Marine Corp vet, but now I (insert current job here).
Person A: Oh...okay.
Person B: Is something wrong?
Person A: Well, vets get a lot of respect from people for the risk of your work, but only about 15% of you ever see combat.
Person B: (Pulls up one leg of his trousers, revealing a prosthetic leg)

Look, man, I know what you're trying to say, but you're saying it in the absolutely worst way possible. And I might as well say that the military isn't usually something you do for one or two tours and then leave: it's a career. So if you're talking with a reasonably young veteran of a branch of the military, there's a solid chance that they didn't leave by choice.

From the constant threat of general sickness, to more serious stuff like AIDs scares and other deadly infectious diseases. Then you also have the paramedics and EMTs who are sometimes in sketchy situations. Shootings, stabbings, gang violence, etc. Plenty of these brave people have been injured or killed while trying to save someone.

I'm not denying any of that. Hell, I even agree that those jobs might not get as much instinctive respect as they ought to. But being in the military, during an active deployment, is a sort of danger that no other job can match. To an alarming number of people, soldiers are different from humans. Their lives are somehow worth less, and are easier to take.

Even fictional media reflects this: how many times have you seen 'noble' heroes butcher their way through the villain's soldiers, only to spare one of the villain's accountants or something? There's some ingrained idea that not only did these people explicitly sign up to fight until their deaths, but that they are some sort of hive-mind extension of whoever they ultimately represent. Even in the most seemingly black-and-white circumstances, the individuals of the Wehrmacht were not extensions of Hitler's will (as much as I hate Godwin's Law).

Sorry, but I'm not about to thank some cook in the navy for whipping up some sweet pasta when no one even bothers to thank the real heroes out there.

Ah, I see what's happening: you see that because most men/women in the military don't see frontline combat, and subsequently assume that any veteran you meet has never seen frontline combat because it's statistically unlikely.

I'm sure that there's a name for that sort of logical fallacy, but I don't need a name for it to know that you're operating under faulty logic.

I'm sure I'll get some hate for this post due to people being groomed to think the military is somehow better and braver than other professions,

Wow. It's like you're becoming increasingly unlikable as the post goes on. You started off talking about how you think the immediate respect military service evokes is overshadowing other equally important professions, which is at least a reasonable claim. Now, you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you has been brainwashed, because there's no possible way for them to logically disagree with you...

but I'd like to see someone logically explain to me why they deserve the gratitude they get when other professions have to go without.

...and yet you still ask people to say why they logically disagree with you.

Ah, I see it now. You're worried that we're depleting our nation's Respect Reserves by giving too much to the military and not spreading it evenly amongst other groups.

Well, never fear. We'll solve that problem: no more respect for military vets unless they can provide us with a gruesome scar, prosthetic leg, or psychological evaluation proving that they have PTSD.

And why stop there? Homosexuals don't have the Right to marry, but that's probably because we've been watering down our Minority Rights ever since the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, look at how many Rights we've given blacks! Let's just bring back literacy tests [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_tests]. That'll provide enough Rights to give gays the ability to marry.

Man, life is so much easier when you pretend that things like 'respect' can only be given if you first take it away from somewhere.

I've never seen a "Support our Pathologists and Surgeons" sticker.

I have no desire to minimize the potential risks of working in an emergency room or as an EMT. But you've made it clear that you think 85% of military personnel live in hermetically sealed boxes while the other 15% is in combat.

Here's the thing: that 85% works right alongside the 15%. They know each other. When was the last time you came into work and didn't see a coworker who ought to have been there? Did you care? Odds were high that they were just late, sick, or any number of other things. You were flipping off cooks earlier, so I'll use them: in the military, if one of the mess tables has an empty seat the day after an operation, you don't have the luxury of assuming that someone got caught in traffic or caught a bad cold. You have to do your job, every day, with the constant knowledge that someone out of that 15% might just never show up again.

Oh, and that reminds me: all the jobs you listed have one thing in common that the military doesn't. It has nothing to do with salaries, workplace conditions, or even potential dangers.

Teachers, EMTs, surgeons...they all get to go home after work. I've an ER surgeon in the family, and I've seen the sorts of strange and difficult hours he has to work sometimes, but he always goes home afterward. Men and women in the military? They don't. They eat, sleep, and live at their job, and odds are they know someone who did the same thing as they did, but never got to go home ever again.

 

[Ascarus]

i don't think members of the military get too much respect per se, but the way those same soldiers are used by politicians, media and some citizens is downright scary.

and i have more respect for first responders (paramedics, police, firemen, etc.) than pretty much any other profession. and many of them do it for pennies.

 

[ProtoformX]

You know the scene. Two people are introducing themselves to each other.

Person A: What do you do?
Person B: I'm actually a Vet. Marine Corps.
Person A: Oh wow. Thank you for your service.


Now that's all well and good, but I've always thought that not only do members of the military get too much unconditional respect, but that other people who provide invaluable services don't get near enough. Sure there are the basic Police and Fire Fighters, but they get plenty.

So...there's a limited amount of 'respect' to be given out, and you're proposing that military veterans get too much of it?

Also, you're overestimating the amount of respect that police get. You don't see two people on a street corner, talking about how a firefighter pulled someone out of a burning building and overhear one say, "Man, fuck the eff-dee!"

I'm talking about people like Pathologists, Teachers, EMTs, Surgeons, social workers, etc.

Well, let's see. I've heard teaching cited so often as one of the most under-appreciated professions in America that it's coming full circle. Meager salaries are a problem, though, so I'll give you that. Same goes for social workers.

I've heard EMTs not getting respected as professions, so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

The average cardiovascular surgeon gets over a quarter million dollars per year. They provide lifesaving services, but considering that they make more money per year than six average citizens combined, you sort of assume that they don't need additional nonspecific expressions of gratitude.

Wait...pathologists and surgeons made the list, but 'regular' doctors didn't?

These people certainly do as much individually, if not more than any one member of the military. Plus as a whole I guarantee the previously mentioned professions have done more good than the military.

Ugh. Mate, a word of advice: when you're trying to make an argument, don't drop in things that are likely to turn people against you no matter what else you might be saying. Case in point, talking about how we should respect X profession more because it has, "...done more good than the military."

I'm sure I'll get the "But the military risks their own lives" argument. However, not only do less than 15% of military members ever even see anything even close to resembling real combat, but emergency response and doctors put themselves on the line constantly.

Well, might as well try and nip this one in the bud. I'll use your 'Person A, Person B' conversation for an example.

Person A: What do you do?
Person B: I'm a Marine Corp vet, but now I (insert current job here).
Person A: Oh...okay.
Person B: Is something wrong?
Person A: Well, vets get a lot of respect from people for the risk of your work, but only about 15% of you ever see combat.
Person B: (Pulls up one leg of his trousers, revealing a prosthetic leg)

Look, man, I know what you're trying to say, but you're saying it in the absolutely worst way possible. And I might as well say that the military isn't usually something you do for one or two tours and then leave: it's a career. So if you're talking with a reasonably young veteran of a branch of the military, there's a solid chance that they didn't leave by choice.

From the constant threat of general sickness, to more serious stuff like AIDs scares and other deadly infectious diseases. Then you also have the paramedics and EMTs who are sometimes in sketchy situations. Shootings, stabbings, gang violence, etc. Plenty of these brave people have been injured or killed while trying to save someone.

I'm not denying any of that. Hell, I even agree that those jobs might not get as much instinctive respect as they ought to. But being in the military, during an active deployment, is a sort of danger that no other job can match. To an alarming number of people, soldiers are different from humans. Their lives are somehow worth less, and are easier to take.

Even fictional media reflects this: how many times have you seen 'noble' heroes butcher their way through the villain's soldiers, only to spare one of the villain's accountants or something? There's some ingrained idea that not only did these people explicitly sign up to fight until their deaths, but that they are some sort of hive-mind extension of whoever they ultimately represent. Even in the most seemingly black-and-white circumstances, the individuals of the Wehrmacht were not extensions of Hitler's will (as much as I hate Godwin's Law).

Sorry, but I'm not about to thank some cook in the navy for whipping up some sweet pasta when no one even bothers to thank the real heroes out there.

Ah, I see what's happening: you see that because most men/women in the military don't see frontline combat, and subsequently assume that any veteran you meet has never seen frontline combat because it's statistically unlikely.

I'm sure that there's a name for that sort of logical fallacy, but I don't need a name for it to know that you're operating under faulty logic.

I'm sure I'll get some hate for this post due to people being groomed to think the military is somehow better and braver than other professions,

Wow. It's like you're becoming increasingly unlikable as the post goes on. You started off talking about how you think the immediate respect military service evokes is overshadowing other equally important professions, which is at least a reasonable claim. Now, you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you has been brainwashed, because there's no possible way for them to logically disagree with you...

but I'd like to see someone logically explain to me why they deserve the gratitude they get when other professions have to go without.

...and yet you still ask people to say why they logically disagree with you.

Ah, I see it now. You're worried that we're depleting our nation's Respect Reserves by giving too much to the military and not spreading it evenly amongst other groups.

Well, never fear. We'll solve that problem: no more respect for military vets unless they can provide us with a gruesome scar, prosthetic leg, or psychological evaluation proving that they have PTSD.

And why stop there? Homosexuals don't have the Right to marry, but that's probably because we've been watering down our Minority Rights ever since the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, look at how many Rights we've given blacks! Let's just bring back literacy tests [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_tests]. That'll provide enough Rights to give gays the ability to marry.

Man, life is so much easier when you pretend that things like 'respect' can only be given if you first take it away from somewhere.

I've never seen a "Support our Pathologists and Surgeons" sticker.

I have no desire to minimize the potential risks of working in an emergency room or as an EMT. But you've made it clear that you think 85% of military personnel live in hermetically sealed boxes while the other 15% is in combat.

Here's the thing: that 85% works right alongside the 15%. They know each other. When was the last time you came into work and didn't see a coworker who ought to have been there? Did you care? Odds were high that they were just late, sick, or any number of other things. You were flipping off cooks earlier, so I'll use them: in the military, if one of the mess tables has an empty seat the day after an operation, you don't have the luxury of assuming that someone got caught in traffic or caught a bad cold. You have to do your job, every day, with the constant knowledge that someone out of that 15% might just never show up again.

Oh, and that reminds me: all the jobs you listed have one thing in common that the military doesn't. It has nothing to do with salaries, workplace conditions, or even potential dangers.

Teachers, EMTs, surgeons...they all get to go home after work. I've an ER surgeon in the family, and I've seen the sorts of strange and difficult hours he has to work sometimes, but he always goes home afterward. Men and women in the military? They don't. They eat, sleep, and live at their job, and odds are they know someone who did the same thing as they did, but never got to go home ever again.

Spot on. Especially that last bit.

 

[Windexglow]

Soldiers of any branch sign away their rights. If the government wants them to do something (and the contract covers quite a bit) they have little/zero say in it. Families are torn on this, people get ptsd and still be far from combat.

The military isn't a job, it's a way of life. They get my respect from that, not by being ultra marine black ops sniper special forces delta seal man of the year.
edit: And the pay sucks pretty bad too.

 

[NoOne852]

Not at all. The military is respected and rightfully so. There's no rule for it, people just do it, as you should for anyone who risks their life to carry out the orders of the country, even if they don't agree with it.
Anyone willing to risk their life to do what they believe is right earns my respect, even if I don't agree with them. (I don't include those who just do stupid actions cause they want to be the next viral video on youtube or something just because they're...well, stupid)
Outside the millitary my higher priorities of respect are police, firefighters, paramedics. I say that because the paramedics don't put themselves in danger, however, they perform wonders and save lives.

Paramedics actually do put themselves in danger. Far more than firefighters. EMTs are the ones who don't put themsleves in danger.

Yeah, sorry about that mix up. >_< it's been a long day... -_-
Rest assured that I do respect all medical service men and women, but those who will put themselves in danger to help other people will always have more respect from me then someone who doesn't.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

I don't know, I'd have someone that is legally permitted to run around with a firearm. That goes the same for police officers as well.

At least, in Canada.

 

[Dfskelleton]

It's not always about doing the most good. The way I see it, joining the military of any nation isn't just agreeing to go fight your country's current wars, and run a miniscule risk of being killed. Joining the military is making a very simple commitment - that, if it is required, you are willing to die for your country. Sure, NATO casualties in Afghanistan may be relatively low (though still regrettable), but if you ask me - which, by posting the topic, you did - military personnel aren't just agreeing to fight in Afghanistan, they're making the commitment to fight in much deadlier potential conflicts, as well.

So basically, you can argue that soldiers do far less good in this world than doctors, or teachers, or paramedics. You might be right, I don't really know or care. But soldiers have agreed to, if necessary, die for their country, and that makes every last one of them a goddamn hero.

As you may have guessed, the profession I respect the most would probably be "soldier".

You summed up my ideas entirely, good sir. Even if they never have risked their life, the fact thet they're willing to in order to save innocent lives is deserving of respect.

 

[ProtoformX]

No. No we do not get too much respect. Actors, doctors (responsible for 70% of homicides in the United States due to negligence), politicians, and firefighters (you'll all probably be shocked, but it's true. Those guys sit around the firehouse 2-3 days a week, and then have 2-3 full weeks off. Their line of work isn't even THAT dangerous either. No worse than a cop. 9/11 gave the Nation an unnatural perception of how dangerous Firefighters have it, and how much they 'sacrifice'.) do.

The coversation you described may occur in SOME places of the United States, but not where I live. I (and my fellow Soldiers) only get condescending statements, and worse than dirt treatment in this liberal state.

We deploy for 12 months (count em) and even spend most of our time training away from our families when we are in the CONUS.

Let's not forget that we're sent over-seas, asked to fight a war, and accomplish a mission... And then criticized every step of the way.

People of America: Do you want the job done? Or do you just want it to look like we're getting the job done? We've made it look like we're getting the job done for ten years now. How much longer do you want us to keep dancing this dance?

Yea, fuck the doctors. It's not like we need them or anything. :/

Also, I'd like to see a source for that 70% of homicides bit. Because I don't believe it. And what you're calling negligence is more than likely simply a ba situation. Atleast in the UK, actual negligence is fairly low.

You're absolutely right. I misspoke.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

http://www.naturodoc.com/library/public_health/doctors_cause_death.htm

14,748 murders a year

250,000 deaths from negligence a year.

Doctors are overpaid.

The first link has nothing to do with Doctors and mortality rates. The second link is just bullshit blame throwing.

Have you any idea how complicated it is to diagnose and treat illness? It doesn't come with a handy chart that narrows it down perfectly each time. Not being able to save a patient =/= negligence or murder. Even though they get tried for it.

And most of the cases of mixing up medication or misdiagnosis is down to overworking. Doctors and nurses are hellishly overworked.

The first link is to crime reports and statistics. Murders included. I was admitting, and demonstrating my error in my original statement.

The second link (if you cared to read the sources) is taken from reports of actual documented negligence. Not reports of negligence, or "unavoidable negligence", or assumed negligence.

Learn to read, and you wouldnt't have been so confused as to make such an asinine statement.

I did read it, and you need to drop the attitude.

What is reported or tried isn't an accurate representation of the actual level of negligence. Doctors are constantly being found guilty of negligence regardless of whether their job could have been done better under the circumstances or not.

You can thank your ridiculous 'where there's blame there's a claim' culture for that.

You can also thank that ethos for the amount of refused surgeries and treatments. Surgeons now refuse to take on cases with high mortality rates because a death means a hearing and a possible trial. Not to mention a permanent blemish on their record. Which is why so many simple operations are taken on and why your uncle Bob won't be getting that Whipple procedure. Because he's slightly overweight and that ups the chance of mortality on an already risky OP.

Feel good man? Wanna talk some more about things you're clearly not so well versed on?

Sure, lets blame the people trying to save lives when something goes wrong, that'll have no repercussions. :/

Oh wow... I can't even being to list the number of things wrong with your statement.

1. You drop the attitude. I was just educating you, bub.

2. Maybe that's how it's done in the UK (or wherever you're from) but doctors over here have VERY good lawyers. They do NOT get in trouble for things they didn't do very often. Most of the time, they actually DON'T get in trouble when they should.

3. ANY doctor who refuses to do a surgery or operation is VERY CLEARLY NOT doing his or her best to help people. You said yourself, they care more about the potential black spot on their record. They are very clearly putting themselves before the people they're "saving."

One of the core Army Values on the other hand is Selfless Service. I (and any good Soldier) live those values. I put my subordinates, the mission, and my collegues before my own wellfare 24/7. You talk about saving lives? I would jump out of cover any day under enemy fire if it meant saving the lives of my men, or the civillians who get caught in the crossfire. Know why? Cause I know my boys would do the same. Some of the guys I serve with are scum bags. You find them in any profession. Get some booze in them during downtime or leave, and you have nightmare on your hands. But their actions in the line of duty are beyond question.

Feel good? Wanna keep running your mouth about things you pretend to know more than you do about?

I'm sure everything is just dandy in your country. It aint over here.

 

[Korolev]

It depends. No really, it depends on the situation.

Did the soldier sign up DURING a time of war (or when war was imminent)? That deserves respect
Did the soldier sign up for COLLEGE MONEY (as QUITE a few do)? That does NOT command nearly enough respect.

Did the soldier serve honourable, and obey the rules of war? That deserves respect.
Did the soldier get drunk, shoot a few locals in the night and brag about it (as have some soldiers in recent wars)? That does not deserve respect.

Did the soldier really sign up and fight for the right reasons, as in they wish to defend democracy and their people? That deserves respect.
Did the soldier sign up because they wanted to KILL things and feel like a big man and only follow orders because they've been trained like a cattle dog to do so? That does not deserve respect.

Some soldiers deserve respect. Some don't. No one, NO ONE deserves "Automatic" respect for being in ANY profession, because, as in any profession, you get people who join for the wrong reason. I'm a scientist, and I'm training to become a doctor, and let me tell you, not all doctors join for the "right" reason. A fair few join simply because they want prestige or money or because their parents pointed at them and said "YOU! BE A DOCTOR!" and the child dumbly obeys their command. I don't respect all doctors - I've worked with a few of them (tutored some too), and while some are genuine fonts of humanitarianism and good will, a fair few doctors are jerks who couldn't care less about their patients, except when it comes to getting the money in their wallet.

So no - I don't automatically respect soldiers. If every soldier was perfect, why then, I ask you, do you have Military Police and Military Courts? If every soldier signed up for the right reason, then why does the army put SOOOOOO much effort into showcasing the financial/career perks of joining (as in, college money)? Let's be honest here - not every soldier joins for the "right" reason. A fair few, more than a fair few, joined because they have NO IDEA about their future and the military in the US now accepts anyone with two legs and two arms due to recruitment troubles. Notice how recruitment tends to nosedive during a time of war? That suggest to me that a fair number of soldiers who signed up in peace-time wouldn't have if they knew a war was around the corner.

Anyone who has been in the military knows this: You KNOW there are bad soldiers in your squad or your platoon or your company. You KNOW a lot of them did not sign up because they are super-patriots who have tattoos of eagles crying emblazoned on their chest. You KNOW a fair number signed up simply because they wanted a stable job, or because their father or mother told them they must. Soldiers should know more than anyone else that members of the military are just as human as anyone else, and while they should not be hated, I'm certainly not going to go around thinking that every single one of them is a hero who would sacrifice his life for his country.

Now, there ARE heroic soldiers. There ARE soldiers who command our respect - soldiers who signed up for the right reason, who possess sound and well-developed moralities, soldiers who fight bravely to save their fellow soldiers, soldiers who follow the rules of law, soldiers whose dedication to duty and setting an example overrides base desires for revenge and violence. They exist, and I respect them immensely.

But just as not every doctor becomes a doctor because they want to help someone, not every soldier joined because they wanted to serve their country. You know that's true. It's a very uncomfortable fact, but that is true. If you joined for college money, I'm sorry, but I don't have that much respect for you. If you only jump because your commander says jump (like a well trained seal), then I don't have much respect for you. If you only dumbly follow any order passed on from above with the INCREDIBLY simplistic mindset of "I'm serving my country" even when said orders might be illegal or immoral, then I don't have much respect for you. That one really gets my goat - soldiers, more often then not, you are NOT serving your country. You are serving the politicians who send you out there. Sure, the people elected the politicians, but very often politicians do not do what is in the public's interest. You can't hide behind the notion that "I'M SERVING MY COUNTRY THEREFORE YOU CANNOT CRITICIZE ME". Well, buddy, ANY soldier can say "I'm serving my country". It doesn't make their actions automatically right. Soviet soldiers were "serving their country" when they crushed the Prague spring! French soldiers were "serving their country" when they went around Algeria massacring locals in the 50's and 60's. You see how just because your nation orders you to war, that war might not be justified?

I have immense respect for soldiers who realize this and make a stand. There was an American soldier who refused to go to Iraq, because he thought it was an unjust war. He was willing to go to Afghanistan, because he thought it was a just war, but not to Iraq. Regardless of your opinion of whether or not the Iraq war was justified, that soldier proved that he had a morality, that he had a sense of right and wrong divorced of the military chain'o'command. He wasn't a well trained cattle dog willing to fight because a general said he must. And I respect him.

Hell, if you think Iraq was a justified war (and there are grounds for thinking so), then I respect those who do fight in Iraq, provided that you actually believe in the mission you are given, I have respect for you. But if you just shoot whoever the man-with-the-ribbons-on-his-chest tells you to shoot because he is the man-with-the-ribbons-on-his-chest and you must never question the man-with-the-ribbons-on-his-chest, then I have little respect for you.

 

[ProtoformX]

Korelev, I'm glad you raised some of those points. FYI, it is a Soldier's duty to NOT follow illegal orders. Illegal orders are classified as orders that are contradictory to the oath the Soldier swore, or the ROE for the current conflict. Shooting civilians (as an example) is an illegal order. It is every Soldier's duty to DISOBEY that order.

It's easy to look at the military and think "brainwashed robots." The truth cannot be farther from that. US Army doctrine is leadership oriented. Leaders think for themselves, and innovate. Follow orders, place the mission first... But exercise discretion in all things.