Do not fight back.

[KazeAizen]

As most of you have heard by now I'm sure. At least the American users of this site have heard about the Naval Yard shooting on Monday. I'm not seeing as much but the reports are slowly trickling in that are again using video games as a straw man. Now we can either do one of two things. We can either A) whine and have a knee jerk reaction and just start saying they are wrong and act like little kids which will just prove to them how immature we are, or we can B) act like the mature people we like to think we are and respond with intelligent answers and disprove their theories about what caused the guy to go nuts. I know you all are sick and tired of this happening whenever a tragic shooting occurs. I know I am. It will probably never stop but if we can get a majority of the public at large on our side then that will be the real win. As big as the industry is we are still a minority when it comes to the public at large.

 

[Legion]

Video games are being used as a scape-goat not a straw-man. A scape-goat is when you assign blame to the wrong thing because it is easier or more beneficial to. A straw-man is when you "prove somebody wrong" by arguing against a made up position that they never held in the first place.

The kind of person who uses games as a scape-goat is not the kind of person who is going to listen to intelligent answers, or else they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence can tell that there are a lot more plausible reasons for why somebody might kill another human being.

There is no need to respond to it at all, because there is nothing to respond to. The kind of people who blame games for shootings are the same as those who used to blame rock/rap music and horror movies, eventually they will simply assign blame to the next thing that they cannot be bothered to understand.

People can respond if they like, and I am not suggesting people "shouldn't", but you cannot cure stupidity and you cannot educate people who don't want to be educated.

 

[Foolery]

I think the US needs to look at what is behind these shootings. Yes, they need to look at how they view guns in their society, but they also need to deal with why someone has a mental breakdown leading to a desire to get a firearm and start shooting. Public mental health has been a low priority for such a long time, in both the US and Canada, that we are reaping the consequences of ignoring it for so long. Yes, the decision to start shooting lies with the person doing it, but mental health is a societal issue as much as it is an individual issue.

But hey. It's far easier to blame the vidjya games than do any real work.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Grand Theft Auto V killed my father and raped my mother! ! !

 

[krazykidd]

I think if people just ignored it it would go away . People like attention . Stop giving them attention and they will sink into darkness .

 

[Windcaler]

Not fighting back would mean the perception that even the gaming community thinks they're right. However I agree that the internets usual outbursts are the last thing we need. What needs to happen is gamers need to confront this kind of nonsense with reasoned and intelligent debate, not a slur of curse words and threats against the individuals and their families.

I would even go so far as to say that when possible we should be protesting news orginizations that make such baseless claims but once again, peacefully. No riots, no cursing, no threats. Present our arguments in a reasoned and intelligent manner to show that this kind of thing will not fly anymore

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

The guy was involved in two shootings prior to this one. He even said that he experienced a blackout the second time it happened. He was already insane. And he was still able to legally purchase a firearm. Was it because of video games, or maybe because the politicians in the "greatest country in the world" are too fuckin' stupid to implement a simple background check in the legislation. If background check existed, he would not have been able to legally buy a gun. You could argue that he could purchase one illegally, but if that's your argument then why don't we just get rid of all the laws and legislation. People can get away with theft and murder. Does that mean we shouldn't legislate those things? And how many people are actually able to just get in touch with an illegal arms dealer?

 

[Windcaler]

The guy was involved in two shootings prior to this one. He even said that he experienced a blackout the second time it happened. He was already insane. And he was still able to legally purchase a firearm. Was it because of video games, or maybe because the politicians in the "greatest country in the world" are too fuckin' stupid to implement a simple background check in the legislation. If background check existed, he would not have been able to legally buy a gun. You could argue that he could purchase one illegally, but if that's your argument then why don't we just get rid of all the laws and legislation. People can get away with theft and murder. Does that mean we shouldn't legislate those things? And how many people are actually able to just get in touch with an illegal arms dealer?

There are background checks in place, the depth of those checks vary from state to state but usually only go into criminal backgrounds of convicted felons. I dont know his criminal history but if he was never convicted of a crime it would have never shown up (as it shouldnt since there wasnt a conviction).

The issue is, once again, our mental health system. In the US were supposed to have the best health care in the world but the problem is nobody can afford it. Within that system there really is no way, that Im aware of, to monitor people that may be mentally unstable. Furthermore Doctor/patient confidentiality gets in the way of the issue (and make no mistake confidentiality is needed to help people with mental problems). At the end of the day our mental health system (or lack there of) is to blame for all of these shootings. It needs an overhaul but as long as we keep scape goating firearms and art its not going to happen

 

[KazeAizen]

Video games are being used as a scape-goat not a straw-man. A scape-goat is when you assign blame to the wrong thing because it is easier or more beneficial to. A straw-man is when you "prove somebody wrong" by arguing against a made up position that they never held in the first place.

The kind of person who uses games as a scape-goat is not the kind of person who is going to listen to intelligent answers, or else they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence can tell that there are a lot more plausible reasons for why somebody might kill another human being.

There is no need to respond to it at all, because there is nothing to respond to. The kind of people who blame games for shootings are the same as those who used to blame rock/rap music and horror movies, eventually they will simply assign blame to the next thing that they cannot be bothered to understand.

People can respond if they like, and I am not suggesting people "shouldn't", but you cannot cure stupidity and you cannot educate people who don't want to be educated.

Thanks for correcting me. I forgot the difference between strawman and scape-goat. Still I'd like to think that there is something we can do. Something so huge that the only people sniping us are the hyper conservative news channels such as Fox etc. Its not so much getting them off our backs but rather getting the masses on our side is what we need. There are still several people who believe that video games help cause this stuff. If we can get those people on our side then the news casters wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Problem about waiting for "the next thing" is is that I have not seen any indication of it. Video games seem to be the last pop culture thing to be invented with this kind of influence with nothing on the horizon to take its place. Thankfully that Supreme Court case finally won us our First Amendment rights. At least the way I understand it. Still I want this to be a non issue anymore. New casters aren't blaming TV or comics anymore. I want that for us so badly.

 

[-Ezio-]

In the US were supposed to have the best health care in the world

in the W.H.O rankings of best healthcare systems the US ranks 38th. so yeah. needs work.

tho i'll admit that was in 2000. still makes you think.

 

[Maximum Bert]

Video games are being used as a scape-goat not a straw-man. A scape-goat is when you assign blame to the wrong thing because it is easier or more beneficial to. A straw-man is when you "prove somebody wrong" by arguing against a made up position that they never held in the first place.

The kind of person who uses games as a scape-goat is not the kind of person who is going to listen to intelligent answers, or else they wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Anybody with an ounce of intelligence can tell that there are a lot more plausible reasons for why somebody might kill another human being.

There is no need to respond to it at all, because there is nothing to respond to. The kind of people who blame games for shootings are the same as those who used to blame rock/rap music and horror movies, eventually they will simply assign blame to the next thing that they cannot be bothered to understand.

People can respond if they like, and I am not suggesting people "shouldn't", but you cannot cure stupidity and you cannot educate people who don't want to be educated.

True but just because someone uses something as a scapegoat dosent mean they are ignorant or stupid I mean it could be but usually its because they know the truth or think people will come to a conclusion that is detrimental to what they want so they need to shift the blame and since its a lie they have to have a lie that everyone will easily believe and ofc videogames are still an easy target. Its just about playing your audience.

They could also just be spinning the situation to their advantage so not using it as a scapegoat as such because they dont care about other facts being covered up they just care about pushing an agenda such as banning certain games for instance. Yes it could be this this and this but there is a slight chance it was the game so lets ban it.

I am just speculating on this though as for this specific case I have zero idea of the facts as I dont live in the USA.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Grand Theft Auto V killed my father and raped my mother! ! !

Well, if she hadn't been dressing so slutty, the disc wouldn't have felt the primal urge to insert itself in her! That's her own fault!

OT: I'll be honest. I cringe a little bit every time someone links a news story going "video game implicated in latest killing!" It's not a news story, though. This happens so often that I'm surprised people even care enough to post in such threads. "Breaking news! Video games blamed!" It's not breaking news. It's happened five times this month already (Of this, I'm not really sure. I'm just being hyperbolic). Of course video games were blamed. They get blamed every single time.

Can we just move on already? It might be relevant to discuss if some new psychological study about violent video games came out, but an idiotic news station being an idiotic news station? That's not news to me and it shouldn't be news to you. They're all idiotic.

 

[Saltyk]

The guy was involved in two shootings prior to this one. He even said that he experienced a blackout the second time it happened. He was already insane. And he was still able to legally purchase a firearm. Was it because of video games, or maybe because the politicians in the "greatest country in the world" are too fuckin' stupid to implement a simple background check in the legislation. If background check existed, he would not have been able to legally buy a gun. You could argue that he could purchase one illegally, but if that's your argument then why don't we just get rid of all the laws and legislation. People can get away with theft and murder. Does that mean we shouldn't legislate those things? And how many people are actually able to just get in touch with an illegal arms dealer?

You're wrong. Background checks are mandatory. And our shooter passed his background check.

It's not a problem of no background checks. It's that we need to revamp them. It seems mental health is either not taken into account or so bad about updating the database that it might as well not even get mentioned. I'm not really sure which it is, honestly, but I think it's a lack of reporting from what little I have read on the subject.

Also, if you knowingly sell someone a gun that has a criminal record or that you know intends to commit a crime with it, you are guilty of a crime. And if you buy a gun legally, to give to a person who can't legally purchase a gun, that is a crime. Even owning a gun as a felon is a crime.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

The guy was involved in two shootings prior to this one. He even said that he experienced a blackout the second time it happened. He was already insane. And he was still able to legally purchase a firearm. Was it because of video games, or maybe because the politicians in the "greatest country in the world" are too fuckin' stupid to implement a simple background check in the legislation. If background check existed, he would not have been able to legally buy a gun. You could argue that he could purchase one illegally, but if that's your argument then why don't we just get rid of all the laws and legislation. People can get away with theft and murder. Does that mean we shouldn't legislate those things? And how many people are actually able to just get in touch with an illegal arms dealer?

You're wrong. Background checks are mandatory. And our shooter passed his background check.

It's not a problem of no background checks. It's that we need to revamp them. It seems mental health is either not taken into account or so bad about updating the database that it might as well not even get mentioned. I'm not really sure which it is, honestly, but I think it's a lack of reporting from what little I have read on the subject.

Also, if you knowingly sell someone a gun that has a criminal record or that you know intends to commit a crime with it, you are guilty of a crime. And if you buy a gun legally, to give to a person who can't legally purchase a gun, that is a crime. Even owning a gun as a felon is a crime.

The problem is that there IS no database. Due to "Doctor/Patient confidentiality", mentally disturbed individuals are often never entered into any sort of system until they actually commit a crime. The idea behind this being that there is already too much of a stigma attached to mental illness, and that Doctor/Patient confidentiality protects them from having their medical information shared.

To give a perfect example, I have a friend who is a Cop. He told me that if they have to pick someone up for acting crazy or acting like they are on drugs, even if they know for a fact that the person spent time in a mental hospital, calling the Hospital and trying to get information is worthless, because the Hospital will not share any information with them regarding a patient's mental status, under Doctor/Patient confidentiality.

 

[Windcaler]

The guy was involved in two shootings prior to this one. He even said that he experienced a blackout the second time it happened. He was already insane. And he was still able to legally purchase a firearm. Was it because of video games, or maybe because the politicians in the "greatest country in the world" are too fuckin' stupid to implement a simple background check in the legislation. If background check existed, he would not have been able to legally buy a gun. You could argue that he could purchase one illegally, but if that's your argument then why don't we just get rid of all the laws and legislation. People can get away with theft and murder. Does that mean we shouldn't legislate those things? And how many people are actually able to just get in touch with an illegal arms dealer?

You're wrong. Background checks are mandatory. And our shooter passed his background check.

It's not a problem of no background checks. It's that we need to revamp them. It seems mental health is either not taken into account or so bad about updating the database that it might as well not even get mentioned. I'm not really sure which it is, honestly, but I think it's a lack of reporting from what little I have read on the subject.

Also, if you knowingly sell someone a gun that has a criminal record or that you know intends to commit a crime with it, you are guilty of a crime. And if you buy a gun legally, to give to a person who can't legally purchase a gun, that is a crime. Even owning a gun as a felon is a crime.

The problem is that there IS no database. Due to "Doctor/Patient confidentiality", mentally disturbed individuals are often never entered into any sort of system until they actually commit a crime. The idea behind this being that there is already too much of a stigma attached to mental illness, and that Doctor/Patient confidentiality protects them from having their medical information shared.

To give a perfect example, I have a friend who is a Cop. He told me that if they have to pick someone up for acting crazy or acting like they are on drugs, even if they know for a fact that the person spent time in a mental hospital, calling the Hospital and trying to get information is worthless, because the Hospital will not share any information with them regarding a patient's mental status, under Doctor/Patient confidentiality.

Thats not exactly correct. Law enforcement can still get a court order to review medical records but they have to go through a judge to do it. So they have to convince that judge that there is a real need to open those records up which can rarely be done before a crime is commited

 

[00slash00]

Both options are a waste of time. We have tried whining and tried making well reasoned arguments and neither work. The best course of action is to just ignore their arguments against video games. There is no evidence linking games to real life violence so it's not like video games will be at risk if we don't defend them. They don't actually believe video games are the cause, they're just throwing around blame. They are closed off to any argument we make. You may as well debate someone about their religion

 

[Ihateregistering1]

The guy was involved in two shootings prior to this one. He even said that he experienced a blackout the second time it happened. He was already insane. And he was still able to legally purchase a firearm. Was it because of video games, or maybe because the politicians in the "greatest country in the world" are too fuckin' stupid to implement a simple background check in the legislation. If background check existed, he would not have been able to legally buy a gun. You could argue that he could purchase one illegally, but if that's your argument then why don't we just get rid of all the laws and legislation. People can get away with theft and murder. Does that mean we shouldn't legislate those things? And how many people are actually able to just get in touch with an illegal arms dealer?

You're wrong. Background checks are mandatory. And our shooter passed his background check.

It's not a problem of no background checks. It's that we need to revamp them. It seems mental health is either not taken into account or so bad about updating the database that it might as well not even get mentioned. I'm not really sure which it is, honestly, but I think it's a lack of reporting from what little I have read on the subject.

Also, if you knowingly sell someone a gun that has a criminal record or that you know intends to commit a crime with it, you are guilty of a crime. And if you buy a gun legally, to give to a person who can't legally purchase a gun, that is a crime. Even owning a gun as a felon is a crime.

The problem is that there IS no database. Due to "Doctor/Patient confidentiality", mentally disturbed individuals are often never entered into any sort of system until they actually commit a crime. The idea behind this being that there is already too much of a stigma attached to mental illness, and that Doctor/Patient confidentiality protects them from having their medical information shared.

To give a perfect example, I have a friend who is a Cop. He told me that if they have to pick someone up for acting crazy or acting like they are on drugs, even if they know for a fact that the person spent time in a mental hospital, calling the Hospital and trying to get information is worthless, because the Hospital will not share any information with them regarding a patient's mental status, under Doctor/Patient confidentiality.

Thats not exactly correct. Law enforcement can still get a court order to review medical records but they have to go through a judge to do it. So they have to convince that judge that there is a real need to open those records up which can rarely be done before a crime is commited

You are correct, I am mistaken, but my basic point is that, for whatever reason, Police can easily enter someone's name into a database and get information about whether they have committed a crime in the past, but they have to jump through multiple hoops to get information about whether the person is mentally ill.

 

[Eve Charm]

No stop it, Stop thinking that rolling over and letting them straw man and scape goat video games is the right thing to do. It's a disservice to the games of course, but it's a disservice to the tragedy and the victims of it. The longer people let them keep blaming it on video games and washing their hands from it they won't look at the REAL problem. When they believe video games are the problem they'll think and spend money on ways to fix, ban, whatever while more and more tragedies happen instead of looking at gun control or mental health, something that actually might stop people from shooting and killing others.

Stop rolling over.

 

[Windcaler]

You are correct, I am mistaken, but my basic point is that, for whatever reason, Police can easily enter someone's name into a database and get information about whether they have committed a crime in the past, but they have to jump through multiple hoops to get information about whether the person is mentally ill.

To be fair most people that are deemed a danger to themselves and others are put into specialized care facilities like an asylum to seperate them from the general populace. I am not a psyciatrist or any kind of mental health professional so I cant say where that line is drawn exactly. What I do know is that confidentiality is vital to patient recovery (which is why professionals can actually loose their liscence to practice if they violate that) so IMO it should be hard to access that kind of information. That said, I think it should be easier for head investigators in law enforcement to access that kind of information too

I actually wish I knew someone who worked in this field so I could get their insight in how to approach such an important issue

 

[Something Amyss]

You're wrong. Background checks are mandatory. And our shooter passed his background check.

For a shotgun. He also failed the state requirement for a rifle.

This sort of bolsters your point that we need to fix the checks, mind. Just pointing out the correction.