Do the mentally/physically challenged implicitly deserve my friendship?

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Unesh52

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Don't get too offended by the title, I'll elaborate.

When choosing your friends, there are certain qualities you look for. Some people just irritate you, so you spend the least amount of time possible with them. It doesn't mean that you attack them (verbally, physically, or otherwise), it just means you choose to spend your time with others. These discriminating qualities may include political, religious, or ethnic identities, though often it's more simple. Does this person smell? Do we share any interests? Is his laugh annoying? Does he have a propensity towards crapping his pants?

Now, these are normal criteria on which to determine friendship, no? Then why, oh why must I be forced to accept those who do not satisfy such a criteria just because "it's not their fault?" This is the argument I hear when I say I don't like hanging out with the SpEd student at school because she has a speech impediment. Or because he's been wearing the same outfit for about a month and smells like a doctor's office. People have called me insensitive for denying their friendship. Now I'm not attacking them, not calling them freaks or whatever, I'm just trying to avoid them. I would even ask them to go away if there was a nice enough way to do it.

This is actually less of a problem for the truly disabled, who in my experience tend to be reserved and uninvolved outside of their usual circle of close friends, but is certainly a problem for those with the more subtle "disorders," like that aspergers thing or ADHD. People who, ironically, are utterly lacking in subtlety. People who are tactless. People who have irritating habits. People who simply can't seem to pick up on physiological and social hints that get most of us by. I don't like these people, but to suggest that in public (or God forbid I say to their face and someone catches wind!) and I get the fifth degree! I don't care if they're "nice people," or if "they don't really mean it," they're goddamn annoying and I will not be forced to like them by virtue of pity! I've even been told I just have to help them along and they're ok. Whatever. There happen to be plenty of folks that I don't have to make concessions for to talk to. It's not my responsibility to teach some idiot how to behave like a reasonable adult, nor do I have the patience or skill for it.

This is going on a bit long, so I'll cut to the chase, i.e.

TLDNR

Do you feel like people with disorders/disabilities deserve special concessions in social groups, namely yours? Do you know anyone who's like this? Are you friends or do you make them sit on the other side of the room if possible? If you still don't know what type of person I'm talking about, think of the kind of personality traits held by Steve Carell's character in Dinner for Schmucks; he's the one who brought this up for me anyway.

Edit: In response to a few reasoned comments, I'll change the subject header from: Do the mentally challenged really deserve my acceptance?
 

Colour Scientist

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Jul 15, 2009
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Well obviously being a nice genuine person doesn't matter if they can't speak as well as others. How dare they not be as fortunate as you are.

I really hope you're not being serious.

So if people are imperfect you won't befriend them?
 

Cabisco

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Hmmm I havent feel thought about it, I think with a mental disability I couldn't hold really harsh feelings for them, but I understand if you just didn't get on as friends it's perfectly understandable not to hang out. I'd say your title is misleading mind, when I read it I thought you meant something very different to do I have to be friends with a jerk if he a reason for it. It would still mean he's a jerk.

What I always remember when people talk about people with disabilities is these two kids in school, one couldn't use his legs and the other had a disorder (i'm sorry I don't know the name) where essentially he didn't have proper control of his body. Now I know you should feel sorry for them both, and be friendly to them, but the dude in the wheelchair was just a knob. I mean an absolute arsehole to everyone.

Yet the teachers would have a go at us if we didn't show him the upmost respect and friendship. Example. In a corridoor with my friend talking, the kid rams into me with his wheelchair and it's my fault because I didn't move according to the teacher. He did this to more than just me, if you didn't get out of his way (he wouldn't tell you to move) you got rammed, someone should have mentioned to him about asking people to move. The other dude though was awesome, he was nice and caring, he was idiotically intelligent (much much superior to everyone else even though we were older) and he just got involved with things.

Anyway, what I mean by all that is that if someone is a dickhead it shouldn't matter if they have a special excuse or not. They are a Dickhead. Though they should get all the help they can from society, whether you like them or not they should deserve help.
 

1blackone

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You may run into a situation where you have a group of friends who hang out with a SpEd person for his/her good qualities rather than the negative qualities that annoy you. Would you force your friends/family members to choose between the two of you?

It only becomes a problem if you discourage others in your social group from interacting with these people. Or, even worse, join a group that expressly avoids contact with a certain type of person. If you were to do that, then you're pretty much creating a supremacist group without the violence...

Another thing to consider is that abhorring someone for "more subtle disorders" can be a slippery slope. Where will you draw the line? A physical tick? A lisp? You could end up with a group of people that think, look, feel, and talk EXACTLY like you. If you wanted that, why not just talk to yourself?

I took it to its extreme, but you see what im getting at: if you draw the line at an annoying laugh, or a socially awkward person, you aren't giving yourself much room to work with in terms of diversity in friends.

But hey, maybe you like that one-mind pack mentality thing.
 

Betancore

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If I like the person, then regardless of their mental capabilities, they're my friend. I wouldn't feel obliged to consider someone my friend just because they've got some kind of disability or disorder. I wouldn't outright reject their friendship though. I wouldn't do that to anyone. It's just that I do have certain qualities that I look for in friends, so while I can be polite and agreeable, I don't have to be friends with everyone I know.
 

JanatUrlich

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Dude. What. Really?

That's like saying that you wouldn't hang out with someone because you don't like their eye colour. It's something that person genuinely can't change. I'm not saying that you have to be best friends with 'mentally challenged' people, but you do have to be fucking civil. Telling them to go away when it's polite enough is not being civil.

I'd much rather 'grant acceptance' to a person with aspergers than you right now to be honest.
 

sosolidshoe

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Out of interest, OP, are you willing to make concessions for someone with a physical disability? For example, would you tell a deaf person that you're not prepared to face them while speaking in order for them to lipread, because you find it annoying? Would you refuse to befriend a person in a wheelchair, because doing so would limit your choices when going out for a drink or a meal, as they require you to attend venues which provide disabled access?

The reason I gave these examples is because you seem to be making a distinction between physical and mental disability which doesn't actually exist in this case. The disorders which you provide as examples(speech impediments, Asperger's, ADHD) all have difficulty in social situations as defining characteristics, and so require concessions in the same way as a deaf person requires lipreading or sign language, or a paraplegic requires wheelchair access.

I think one of the main motivators behind people's criticism of your attitude is that, well, it is discriminatory. Are you allowed to discriminate when selecting your social circle? Absolutely. Does that mean the methods and criteria you use in said selection should be immune from comment? Not at all.

EDIT: Disclaimer - I have Asperger's, so I'm likely biased.
 

Rakkana

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It's a fine moral line that people tend to choose the darker side of. People can wish to be kinder but unfortunately we never put it into practice.

Personally I have no problem with it but to say I haven't treated somebody mentally challenged in the past differently would be a lie.
 

tofulove

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as a officially diagnosed by a doctor aspie, i wouldn't call it a metal disability, but we are fucking annoying, so don't blame ya,

on a side note, should give us a chance, although lacking in natural born tools for socializing, we can with practice improvise, should be a little more tolerant so we can learn to socialize better, but because of people like you, society has not yet fully appreciate all that we have to offer,
 

Unesh52

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Colour-Scientist said:
Well obviously being a nice genuine person doesn't matter if they can't speak as well as others. How dare they not be as fortunate as you are.

I really hope you're not being serious.

So if people are imperfect you won't befriend them?
Everyone is imperfect. It's the nature of their imperfection that determines how we treat them. When my fully competent friend doesn't bathe for a week, he smells. I may choose not to go out for pizza with him until he showers. If he made a habit of it, I can tell you from experience that our friendship would deteriorate -- quickly. Similarly, there was a drooly sort of boy who has some form of mental handicap in my school as well. He smelled funny. Like drool, sweat, and piss usually. And anti-bac. It's unpleasant. Why should I take it for him when I wouldn't even accept it in my cognizant friends?

And specifically about the girl with the speech impediment -- I can't understand what she's saying. I have to make wild guess based on where we are and what kind of wild, spasmodic gestures she's making. I end up avoiding her at all costs because I don't want to hurt her feelings by going "I CAN'T FUCKING TELL WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!" and running off. I'm not asking her to suddenly learn to talk, but if she can't come up with a more reliable form of communication, I wish she'd stop trying. Until then, our encounters are awkward and pointless -- why should I like such a person?

What's that you say? Maybe if you take her aside in a quiet room and try to establish some sort of sign language you could be real pals? WTH? Sorry, but there are people who can already talk for me to associate with. I don't have to devote the length of a Lifetime original movie in order to establish basic communication with them.

Demon ID said:
Anyway, what I mean by all that is that if someone is a dickhead it shouldn't matter if they have a special excuse or not. They are a Dickhead. Though they should get all the help they can from society, whether you like them or not they should deserve help.
Yes, they deserve to have the handicap accessible walkways and restrooms and such. And they deserve to be treated for what ails them, helped to acclimate into a society that is different from them, and treated with respect like any other person. That's not the same as being accepted as a friend.

I'm not really talking about people who are just dicks. I mean people who have unlikable qualities directly related to their disabilities/disorders that get befriended in spite of them, because people feel like they have to. And how I am expected to like them in spite of their obvious flaws. Regardless of whether it's their fault or not, I don't like it -- why should I accept it?

And again, I'm not talking about belittling them or taking away their rights, I'm just talking about not wanting to be near them and associate with them. I don't hate disabled people, I just don't like some of them for reasons that aren't their fault.

Oh! Here's an example of something similar that is acceptable: I don't like to date black chicks. I just don't find that skin tone pretty (generally). It's ok for me to not want to date a girl because she's black (an immutable quality she didn't choose), but somehow it's not ok for me to not want to hang out with some guy because he has ADHD/turrets and won't stop spitting or drumming his fingers. That's not his fault either, but because it's sad or whatever I'm expected to give him sympathy. Not fair.

sosolidshoe said:
Out of interest, OP, are you willing to make concessions for someone with a physical disability? For example, would you tell a deaf person that you're not prepared to face them while speaking in order for them to lipread, because you find it annoying? Would you refuse to befriend a person in a wheelchair, because doing so would limit your choices when going out for a drink or a meal, as they require you to attend venues which provide disabled access?

The reason I gave these examples is because you seem to be making a distinction between physical and mental disability which doesn't actually exist in this case. The disorders which you provide as examples(speech impediments, Asperger's, ADHD) all have difficulty in social situations as defining characteristics, and so require concessions in the same way as a deaf person requires lipreading or sign language, or a paraplegic requires wheelchair access.

I think one of the main motivators behind people's criticism of your attitude is that, well, it is discriminatory. Are you allowed to discriminate when selecting your social circle? Absolutely. Does that mean the methods and criteria you use in said selection should be immune from comment? Not at all.

EDIT: Disclaimer - I have Asperger's, so I'm likely biased.
I really want to reply to everyone, but I have to pick and choose, so I like this one. You make a very good point; my discrimination should be within reason. However, I think I've misled here to suggest that I dislike all of the handicapped. In fact, my distaste has nothing to do with the disability itself. It's the symptoms. If a person has turrets and compulsively cracks his knuckles, I'd probably be fine with that. That doesn't really annoy me personally. If the same person instead compulsively did mouth guitar or drummed on things, I get the feeling I would be at my wits end very fast. But if I tell my friends "Oh, that guy's going? No thanks, I'd rather not deal with 10 minute intervals of sweet child o' mine all night," they'd cry, "But he has a disorder!" And now I'm the bad guy. That's lame.

Ok one more:

JanatUrlich said:
Dude. What. Really?

That's like saying that you wouldn't hang out with someone because you don't like their eye colour. It's something that person genuinely can't change. I'm not saying that you have to be best friends with 'mentally challenged' people, but you do have to be fucking civil. Telling them to go away when it's polite enough is not being civil.

I'd much rather 'grant acceptance' to a person with aspergers than you right now to be honest.
See the black girl thing above. Just because they can't change it doesn't mean it's suddenly alright. And though I may not have articulated it properly in the OP, I hope I've made it clear by now that I don't exclude people just because they're handicapped. I discriminate among people based on their qualities, all of them, regardless of their connection to physical or mental disability.

There's still more to say, but this is quite enough for now.
 

Danzaivar

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tofulove said:
as a officially diagnosed by a doctor aspie, i wouldn't call it a metal disability, but we are fucking annoying, so don't blame ya,

on a side note, should give us a chance, although lacking in natural born tools for socializing, we can with practice improvise, should be a little more tolerant so we can learn to socialize better, but because of people like you, society has not yet fully appreciate all that we have to offer,
Society hates aspies simply because every anti-social person self diagnoses themselves as one, tolerance doesn't come into it.

--

OT: I kinda agree. Nothing is more frustrating than holding a conversation with a dumb person, forcing yourself to do it more is kinda pointless.
 

tofulove

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Sep 6, 2009
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also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.
 

tofulove

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Sep 6, 2009
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Danzaivar said:
tofulove said:
as a officially diagnosed by a doctor aspie, i wouldn't call it a metal disability, but we are fucking annoying, so don't blame ya,

on a side note, should give us a chance, although lacking in natural born tools for socializing, we can with practice improvise, should be a little more tolerant so we can learn to socialize better, but because of people like you, society has not yet fully appreciate all that we have to offer,
Society hates aspies simply because every anti-social person self diagnoses themselves as one, tolerance doesn't come into it.

--

OT: I kinda agree. Nothing is more frustrating than holding a conversation with a dumb person, forcing yourself to do it more is kinda pointless.
unfortunately, it has become a band wagon for every person who isnt very social, and has given it a bad name,

and dumb people are fucking annoying, not the iq of 60 dumb, but the 80-100 who are smart enough to conversate, but lack any real insight.
 

Unesh52

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tofulove said:
also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.
Jimi Hendrix made great music. He was also a drug addict. I appreciate him for what he did (for music), but if he were alive today, or I alive then, I wouldn't want to hang out with him. Similarly, I have every reason to believe Einstein was kind of a d-bag. His wife didn't seem to like him all that much anyway. I never said that those with disorders/disabilities were worthless. I said they were unpleasant to hang out with. And many of them are. (And plenty aren't! The coolest guy I knew in Freshmen year was missing his legs below the knee, one of my best friends is manic depressive, and my girlfriend has dyslexia.)
 

jamez525

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Oct 4, 2009
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Colour-Scientist said:
Well obviously being a nice genuine person doesn't matter if they can't speak as well as others. How dare they not be as fortunate as you are.

I really hope you're not being serious.

So if people are imperfect you won't befriend them?
He isn't saying that at all, I don't know but I assume that summerof2010 would happily hang out with someone with a disability if he liked them, but he is saying that he will not befriend these people out of pity because people believe that is the right thing to do.
 

Unesh52

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jamez525 said:
Colour-Scientist said:
Well obviously being a nice genuine person doesn't matter if they can't speak as well as others. How dare they not be as fortunate as you are.

I really hope you're not being serious.

So if people are imperfect you won't befriend them?
He isn't saying that at all, I don't know but I assume that summerof2010 would happily hang out with someone with a disability if he liked them, but he is saying that he will not befriend these people out of pity because people believe that is the right thing to do.
Yes, the man with the awesome avatar has hit the nail on the head.

[small]That sea lion (I suppose) is adorable![/small]
 

jamez525

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Oct 4, 2009
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summerof2010 said:
jamez525 said:
Colour-Scientist said:
Well obviously being a nice genuine person doesn't matter if they can't speak as well as others. How dare they not be as fortunate as you are.

I really hope you're not being serious.

So if people are imperfect you won't befriend them?
He isn't saying that at all, I don't know but I assume that summerof2010 would happily hang out with someone with a disability if he liked them, but he is saying that he will not befriend these people out of pity because people believe that is the right thing to do.
Yes, the man with the awesome avatar has hit the nail on the head.

[small]That sea lion (I suppose) is adorable![/small]
I'm not entirely sure but I think it is a manatee...

Actually google images has convinced me now, it is a manatee!