Do we need more female protagonists, or just more interesting ones?

[Schadrach]

-snip-

One of the big problems both with games and the media in general is because white, heterosexual males are the "default" hero for any story. Most stories that aren't specifically ABOUT race or gender have a white, heterosexual male as the lead. Even though in most stories that don't come out the race or gender or sexual orientation of the character doesn't matter, they're still white, heterosexual males.

In cases where their sexual orientation doesn't matter, how do you know that they are heterosexual? Other than merely assuming it because they haven't made a point of it otherwise? Or are you claiming it "doesn't matter" if the plot doesn't revolve primarily around their orientation?

I wonder what you'd say about Always Sometimes Monsters, the demo they had at PAX East for it explains that it's a love story then assigns your race and gender (as well as that of your potential significant other) at random (supposedly in the final product you get to choose). Supposedly the game goes to some dark places, and deals with sexism, racism, and homophobia where appropriate. Comes out next month. http://store.steampowered.com/app/274310/

 

[Scow2]

Or if the story was set in the future. The future especially because it looks like there must have been a war where half the women and all the racial minorities were killed off... So that's why all the humans who migrated to mars are White men.

All the women were killed off when a plague ravaged the earth, killing every woman that lacked the "Edge". After everyone ran out of Tanx, it was only the White Guys who had the privilege of having enough money and opportunity to escape into space, and the persecution complex (Especially with all the women being put in charge as Queen Lords) to feel driven off earth.

It's all easy when you think about it.

 

[gargantual]

And Heeeeere we go again. Oh well. My two cents.

Rhianna Pratchett inferred on one of these threads, why games have bad writing and poorly realized characters. The story is put in as second fiddle after the levels and all 3D assets are already built, and they're asked as writing consultants to fill in the blanks.

Where if they had more creative input from the very inception and pre-production of a AAA game, games would be likely to have more fleshed out and consistent character development, and narrative that reflects the mechanics and game objectives properly.

Any character can look confusing, bad or unintentionally marginalized when development priorities are THAT mixed up.

I wouldn't say that those priorities are messed up, given that the 3d Assets and level design are things that make a game a, y'know, game.

Didn't say messed up. I said 'mixed' up. Good working energy being applied sometimes in disjointed ways, and you can tell when a games' story is so annoying you'd rather skip it all and just play. We've folks complain about ludonarrative dissonance or whatever, and the story having crap all to do with the gameplay, and characters getting marginalized in ways that make other commenters feel like their gender or race also got marginalized.

If some developers came to a solid salable conclusion on how the story goes and will affect, the level design choice, challenges, pacing, character abilities, tone and hinderances etc, and how everyone will be represented from the very beginning along with the gameplay, instead of saying okay we're done, now slap some contrived plot and one liners on it, and we'll call the actors...maybe game stories would play out a little better.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Yeah, I pretty much entirely agree; better writing is more important than gender, race, etc. And, of course, there's no reason a talented writer can't decide to turn his/her well written protagonist into a woman unless the story demands it to be a man.

I will defend Space Marine #117, though; I kinda like the guy. I think there's a place for those stereotypes and generic macho men. It's just that they're taking up a little too much room right now.

 

[Lieju]

Older, like 40, 50s, etc. But not old, like decrepid, that's just stupid.
Actually, I think the wrongly maligned COD games have done this. Captain Price is not a young man, for example. Elias is not young in COD Ghosts.

Not that the protagonist couldn't be very old and possibly physically fragile, like an old wizard or a witch.

Personally, even as a kid (probably more as a kid) I liked middle-aged characters who had had some life experiences and failures, and whose physical presence reflected that, and was really bothered how few female characters like that there were.
So all my favourite characters were old dudes.
At least the characters I most wanted to be like.

As an aside, defining Chell as an interesting or strong, female character, or as a female protagonist is wrong. She is not a great female protagonist though frequently crops up in the list of such. She is a floating gun with a female body when viewed through our portals. No voice, no personality, Chell could've been a robot or a ghost for all the difference it would make.

But if that is all it takes to make people happy that they're getting their desired female protagonists then power to them.

She might not be a terribly complex character, but it's a step in the right direction she IS female.
Her gender does not matter. She just happens to be female.

But in 90% of cases (probably more) where the gender doesn't matter at all, the character somehow ends up a guy.
When reasonably one would expect that 50% of those cases would be female.

Or at least that males and females would be equally represented, there would also be gender-ambiquous or non-gendered characters. (like the bots in Portal 2)

Although when it comes to Chell's personality, she doesn't have to speak for us to know some things about her. Mainly that she doesn't give up.

 

[gargantual]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

How does that explain away the male part of her statement? Because there should at least be more White female protagonists according to your logic.

It doesn't, which is why I didn't mention it. My hypothesis on why male is the default is much more complicated and concerns, amongst other thing, history and demographics (women are the default in certain genres and medias) and I didn't want to write an excessively long post. Suffice to say I agree that more diversity would be a good thing. Most protagonists don't need to be white or male for them to work and I would like to see other demographics better represented. I can't remember ever playing a game with a black male protagonist (are there any obvious ones?) except for Skyrim and I created him. Also I don't think I've ever played as a gay character. That seems ridiculous to me.

I can't remember any black male protagonists except for Grand Theft Auto. Mostly they are side characters if they exist at all. Resident Evil 5 could have dropped Chris if they wanted too and just had the African members of the BSAA handle the job. But I understand why they didn't for marketing reasons.

I think that it only bothers me when the setting is actually diverse. Like when the story is in New York. Or if the story was set in the future. The future especially because it looks like there must have been a war where half the women and all the racial minorities were killed off... So that's why all the humans who migrated to mars are White men. The most organic way I can think to combat this is to push stories written by underrepresented groups into the mainstream. There are already a good backlog of such stories, it's just that investors aren't interested. Movies are the worse with this. They are adapting books into movies anyway. They could if they wanted just adapt a movie that has some diversity built in (and not white wash any of the characters, or feel the need to race swap any of the characters because they realized too late that they picked a book with no diversity).

But this article explains the issue better than I ever could. It's mostly about books but I would not be surprised if other forms of media have the same dynamic.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/danieljoseolder/diversity-is-not-enough

Prophet in Crysis is black. Although by 3rd one he's a composite being of alien DNA and the remaining matter of the dying solider in Crysis 2 rebirthing 'Prophet'.


And sadly..theres 50 Cent because bleeccchh!!

We just can't get that fully realized brotha' in the main P.O.V. yet, but it'll come. Someday.

 

[Zhukov]

I can't remember ever playing a game with a black male protagonist (are there any obvious ones?)

I can't remember any black male protagonists except for Grand Theft Auto. Mostly they are side characters if they exist at all.

Well, there is Lee Everett, protagonist from The Walking Dead.

Managed to be a grounded, sympathetic and thoroughly likeable character too.

(The sequel stars a black female. Who is also a little kid to boot. Shocking!)

Of course, being a white male and all, I was utterly incapable of enjoying either game due to the characters not sharing my skin colour and/or gender.

 

[Eve Charm]

Eh can I be the annoying mouthy one that says Neither? I mean really the main protagonist of a game, Is generally the most boring character of the game. You don't get a good protagonist by writing good protagonist, you get them by writing good side characters and good antagonists. That's Elle and Elizabeth are more notable then Joel and Booker, Nathan Drake surrounded by Sully and Chole? Even your bromances like Marcus and Dom, Jak and Daxter, and even your Ladymance in TLOU left behind, The side characters take the center show or you just have characters Like Kartos and Mario in the early years that's about as deep as a thimble. With no real backup characters as easy to point to as the main characters and such it's easy to see why no one can really remember me girl or faith.

With the Protagonist being the most boring character in a story and generally equally interchangeable with sex/race/sexuality, Bring on the blank slate character. I rather create my own character, and have the choice to act how I want to act, look how I want to and so on and so forth and characters react to how I act then try to fit the mold the story is saying I should fit. I think most people would feel like that to considering how easily most female characters get written off and thrown under the bus and labeled bad characters for dumb reasons.

The perfect protagonist will be the one you make yourself and surrounded by characters you like that react to how you decide to act. All others will fall flat.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

What I think the issue is, and brace yourself for my outstanding originality, is that we don't have many INTERESTING protagonists, Male or Female. I don't necessary blame writers for this lack though, but the money hungry and focus group using publishers for this. Face it, samey things and sex sales, and publishers know that. they sell a lot to horny teens and basement dwellers alike. I wish we could change their minds. If we lived in a great world and we could start getting more interesting stories with more varied characters then the gap between male and female protagonists would slowly decrease, I have no proof, but that's my Idea. I could be wrong, and am entirely convince-able that I am.

Agreed.

I want interesting characters. Male or female doesn't bother me.

Now, I'm not a pro writer by any stretch of the imagination (although I really like writing and hope to do it professionally someday), but I honestly feel that aside from a few small quirks (and the obvious physical differences and the results thereof [potential for motherhood, etc]) well written female characters aren't massively different from male ones.

To be honest, I feel that unless you're basing a character totally around something that only one gender can truly appreciate (being a mother, realizing you fathered a child you didn't know existed, etc), whether a character is male or female is just another character trait.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

I'll go for more interesting ones. Because trying to create more without understanding the problem would be an over correction.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I dont even think many male characters are well written outside of "im tough grrrr". But then even Gears had tough woman gears. I think there are many woman characters, just that they are painted with a sexy brush when they dont need be. I found the actress playing femshep was better than the maleshep actor. Woman can be cliche characters, just once you dress them in revealing armour, then it gets worse. When it comes to being gay or trans gen, its pointless and meaningless as now your character is all about the sexuality and not about the person you are. Is Master Chief gay? Who knows? Does it matter? No. So why should we make an issue of it. An i would like to think gay people would rather be known for what they do than who they have sex with. Though i think this choice is better with games like Mass Effect, where you can chose your sex and sexuality with out it impacting on the plot. It leaves it personal to the gamer. An thats where it should be.

 

[duwenbasden]

Trying to write good protagonist in games is almost impossible: If the interest of the protagonist does not align with mine then no amount of writing can salvage a character that I do not want to work with. Eg. Lara Croft where she stumbled into the priest. Her: *stares at the rally doing nothing*; me: LOB A GRENADE / SHOOT THE PRIEST YOU DUMB FUCK WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!! (I skipped the cutscene) The Mass Effect 3 ending also failed spectacularly because of this reason.

Unlike movies/book where the reader have no input, the player can influence the protagonist so the writer can only insert so much detail into the character before the conflict of interest interferes with the perceived quality of the character. The writer for the protagonist shall write to GUIDE the player, not make decisions for the player. You can have the best designed protagonist in history, but it is NEVER, EVER going to a player designed character, because the character in question will have motivations and desires that fits EXACTLY to the player's imagination. If I don't get to make decision in the game then I'll just save the effort and watch someone play it for me, since it'll be the same as watching a movie.

What we need is more interesting side characters:

With the Protagonist being the most boring character in a story and generally equally interchangeable with sex/race/sexuality, Bring on the blank slate character. I rather create my own character, and have the choice to act how I want to act, look how I want to and so on and so forth and characters react to how I act then try to fit the mold the story is saying I should fit. I think most people would feel like that to considering how easily most female characters get written off and thrown under the bus and labeled bad characters for dumb reasons.

The perfect protagonist will be the one you make yourself and surrounded by characters you like that react to how you decide to act. All others will fall flat.

Thank you.

 

[Raku-Gosha]

Echoing what many have above me have said.

I always find it tricky when you try to mix in gender on a character and asking myself why are they male/female and if anything what does it change. If you instead create a character based on the story and setting good characters naturally arise be it male or female. It just feels more organic as opposed to your "token female" to diversify the sausage fest.

so in repeating, it's better to create characters out of necessity of the plot or setting so you aren't writing yourself into a corner focusing on the small stuff (there are 2 boys in the group so I'll need to make 2 girls etc)

So let's hope characters of the future are lauded more for their experiences and setting rather than their package.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Yes to both? You have two issues that are kind of related, but not related. One of the ways you get interesting characters is to try a lot. You can basically try as many different and diverse ideas as you can till you get something that works. One thing that I see pop up the women characters discussion is the idea that one bad female character spoils the whole bunch so we shouldn't try making female charters till we reach some kind of quality level. I think the best way to get interesting female characters is to make female characters. Make a lot of them. Have each one be different and the best can rise to the top well the ones that don't quite work can fade away. I call it the shotgun method.

 

[StormDragonZ]

I've always wanted to see a female protagonist that is silent, but expresses emotions and facial expressions that rival the smartass-style characteristics of Deadpool.

 

[CyberSinner]

I would rather see more interesting characters on both scales of the sexes. Every hero in a video game IS male, but not only that he is always an American Soldier or some kind of Soldier. He's always super muscular and he always goes in guns blazing. Why can't we have smart main characters of both sexes? When can we get a male MC who is skinny, a survival horror where he has to use his brains and his intelligence around the problems. And he fights an alien species ,in a Doom or Deadspace setting, that is trying to eat him by using his wits about him.

As for female characters I would like more characters like Jodie from Beyond two Souls. She to me was the perfect catalyst of how a female character should behave and react to the situation around here. She was interesting and I do say it better than the new version of Laura Croft.

 

[Lilani]

In cases where their sexual orientation doesn't matter, how do you know that they are heterosexual? Other than merely assuming it because they haven't made a point of it otherwise? Or are you claiming it "doesn't matter" if the plot doesn't revolve primarily around their orientation?

That is very true, and a good point. When I was writing that, I was thinking about all the movies where the protagonist has a girlfriend/wife and child all set and locked in so all they need for the happy ending is a dog and a white picket fence. But honestly, I can't think of many movies with a male hero WITHOUT having some sort of love interest at some point, whether they start with it and are trying to keep it safe or gain it somewhere along the way. I'm sure movies like that exist, but most of the time they cover that at some point. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't do this is Frodo in Lord of the Rings--as far as I know he was never infatuated with anyone and never had a family in the Grey Havens (though I've never read the Appendices so I don't know for sure).

I guess children's stories are the ones that most often leave that ambiguous enough that assumptions can be made either way, because most often those stories are less about gaining and/or protecting families and more about solving one, specific problem (like Remy in Ratatouille, or Lilo in Lilo and Stitch, or basically any character in Winnie the Pooh). That, and they're very often not about adults, and so the character may not be in the seeking a relationship phase of life yet.

So I guess a better way to put it would be whenever a story does bother to elaborate on a character's sexuality, it is pretty much always by default straight, unless they are going to make the character's being gay a specific aspect of their character. You never see gay couples just in the background of a movie, like a couple of men walking down the street hand in hand, or a couple of women cuddled up on a bench watching a sunset. Hell the media is just now beginning to realize that interracial couples exist. Doctor Who has gotten in the habit of doing this, and while sometimes they can be a bit heavy-handed with it, it has produced some genuinely sweet moments (like two old married ladies in one episode called Gridlock, at one point everybody is singing the song The Old Rugged Cross to keep themselves going in what seems like a hopeless situation, and they take each other's hands and it's just so sweet!).

As for that game you mentioned, I think it sounds really neat, and I'll be looking out for it since I have Steam. I'm not exactly sure what you were thinking I would think of it, lol. I'm just hoping there are plenty of moments which transcend all those more obvious overtones and become just genuinely sweet moments, like that episode in Doctor Who.

 

[carnex]

As, usual, these are my opinions. You can agree or disagree with them, not my problem or care unless you can make compelling argument into changing my opinion.

1) In most games story is something only small number of players actually pay any attention beyond what is needed to understand what to do. Gears of War 2 "Dom is searching for his wife" is prime example of that. There are tons of story behind that (equally uninteresting to me) but few cared. People play that because of action. I love Uncharted games, but really, story is not at all important. I can't remember any details now even If I played all 3 PS3 ones and dug up every last bit in them. In those game characteristics of PC is important not character.

On the other hand, decades years later, I can still remember details from Ultima 6 or Fallout 2 for example. There story and character is important. I remember dialogues, events, references and even moments of gaining a profound insight into what that party of story is all about.

So, yea, you can make doom marine into anything and stuff the game full of character. I won't care. Majority of gamers wont. It's doom, we are there to blow stuff up.

2) There are games that resemble out society more and those that resemble less. It's all up to the suspend of disbelief and where you need to be with it. If you are making modern military shooter with realistic graphics you will not put woman in full gear (40kg or so) running around battlefield. Yes, it's possible that there are some female soldiers doing that but it would break suspension of disbelief for many. Now, if you are making Borderlands type game where suspension of disbelief is set fa lower with tone and graphics representation you can put woman with 7 ton truck on her back and nobody would blink an eye.

I might write more opinionated BS later. Maybe. Perhaps...