Do we need more LGBTQ+ protagonists in video games?
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I love the idea that we can only have gay characters if they add something to the story, like "heterosexual is default, so make a straight character unless you can think of a compelling reason for them to be gay. Otherwise I just don't wanna know!" Groan.
Don't tell me you're gay unless it's relevant to something I'm doing. 'Cause we're all straight here, right?
"But I'm not a white, brown-haired heterosexual male." says more than half the population. "Where're the games with protagonists that represent me?"
"They won't sell, and it's not like we can take risks on investments! We absolutely must produce blandness across the board, so hands-tied!"
Sorry to get on my soap-box. I don't mean to sound like a social justice warrior, but it's quite a blinkered and silly response that people presumably think comes across as intelligent and reasoned. Think about it for a moment: why is "brown hair, white, muscular, heterosexual, middle-class" the default? There are plenty of people who don't fit those defaults; we're varied.
I'd love to see more gay and transgender protagonists, or even just female protagonists if that's too much. Not stereotypes. There's already too much of that.
There is so much of the human experience that games can draw from, but don't. I play games for fun, and it can be nice to indulge a fantasy or see something from a different perspective; you're slipping into the body and life of a different person for the duration of play, and I find it a little insulting that gamers would be somehow uncomfortable playing as a woman or a gay man.
It's just pretend. Fantasy is just that - so why stick to the same dull, boring fantasies that you've told yourselves are the only things that can sell well, developers?
It's a little hurtful when you're not included.
EDIT: Sorry, wrong link.
Don't tell me you're gay unless it's relevant to something I'm doing. 'Cause we're all straight here, right?
"But I'm not a white, brown-haired heterosexual male." says more than half the population. "Where're the games with protagonists that represent me?"
"They won't sell, and it's not like we can take risks on investments! We absolutely must produce blandness across the board, so hands-tied!"
Sorry to get on my soap-box. I don't mean to sound like a social justice warrior, but it's quite a blinkered and silly response that people presumably think comes across as intelligent and reasoned. Think about it for a moment: why is "brown hair, white, muscular, heterosexual, middle-class" the default? There are plenty of people who don't fit those defaults; we're varied.
I'd love to see more gay and transgender protagonists, or even just female protagonists if that's too much. Not stereotypes. There's already too much of that.
There is so much of the human experience that games can draw from, but don't. I play games for fun, and it can be nice to indulge a fantasy or see something from a different perspective; you're slipping into the body and life of a different person for the duration of play, and I find it a little insulting that gamers would be somehow uncomfortable playing as a woman or a gay man.
It's just pretend. Fantasy is just that - so why stick to the same dull, boring fantasies that you've told yourselves are the only things that can sell well, developers?
It's a little hurtful when you're not included.
EDIT: Sorry, wrong link.
We don't really need it at all. I can't imagine LGBTQ+ fitting into the types of games I enjoy. In most games sexuality doesn't even come into play. And in the rest it would have to make sense, as in bisexual orgies in the Roman empire or something like that.
But even then, all I can see it adding to a game is retarded reviews and comments going "Oh wow, you so brave developer, wow, here's an award for braveness and excellence. 11/10 u my hero"
But even then, all I can see it adding to a game is retarded reviews and comments going "Oh wow, you so brave developer, wow, here's an award for braveness and excellence. 11/10 u my hero"
I have two things to say and the first is on diversity in general.
DIVERSITY
These kind of topics are getting more and more common and in all honesty I don't see the point. I mean yes Diversity is a good thing, but if games are going to go for every possible race, gender, and sexuality of the human spectrum I think we'd be here for a while. I think the main reason why the Caucasian maleis so often picked is because it's easy convent and proven to work in sales.
I agree that more diversity is a good thing, however and I must emphases that I by no means am referring to anyone specifiably here.
but I also can't help but shake the feeling that diversity is something people say they want but not really mean it. I Refer to Jim Starling's coffee argument. That people say they want more diversity because it's good to say and makes you look progressive, but given the choice of game I think most people will still go for the game with the Caucasian male.
LGBT
Because the LGBT is mostly a community focused on either sexuality, sexual identity and preference. Outside of a romantic game, like a dating sim or simply a game where the romance between characters plays a major role I don't honestly see the relevance.
Admittedly I don't play a lot of AAA games and most of the games I do play there's either, no story or the story has no romantic subtext.
In other words, there's no attention to the sexuality of the main character. They could be straight or gay but there's nothing there to indicate one or the other.
I doubt you could put in a gay character in a video game conscious without it coming off as forced or stereo typical.
Many people talk about Star Trek having gay characters in it for reasons... I don't quite understand, but that's a topic for another day.
Possibly the best show with gay characters that I've seen lately is Game of Thrones. Mostly because they're just normal. In fact my favorite character Oberyn Martel is bi-sexual.
He really was my favorite, because he was very charismatic and interesting. His sexuality suited his passionate personality and didn't come off as forced either.
That's all I have to say for now.
DIVERSITY
These kind of topics are getting more and more common and in all honesty I don't see the point. I mean yes Diversity is a good thing, but if games are going to go for every possible race, gender, and sexuality of the human spectrum I think we'd be here for a while. I think the main reason why the Caucasian maleis so often picked is because it's easy convent and proven to work in sales.
I agree that more diversity is a good thing, however and I must emphases that I by no means am referring to anyone specifiably here.
but I also can't help but shake the feeling that diversity is something people say they want but not really mean it. I Refer to Jim Starling's coffee argument. That people say they want more diversity because it's good to say and makes you look progressive, but given the choice of game I think most people will still go for the game with the Caucasian male.
LGBT
Because the LGBT is mostly a community focused on either sexuality, sexual identity and preference. Outside of a romantic game, like a dating sim or simply a game where the romance between characters plays a major role I don't honestly see the relevance.
Admittedly I don't play a lot of AAA games and most of the games I do play there's either, no story or the story has no romantic subtext.
In other words, there's no attention to the sexuality of the main character. They could be straight or gay but there's nothing there to indicate one or the other.
I doubt you could put in a gay character in a video game conscious without it coming off as forced or stereo typical.
Many people talk about Star Trek having gay characters in it for reasons... I don't quite understand, but that's a topic for another day.
Possibly the best show with gay characters that I've seen lately is Game of Thrones. Mostly because they're just normal. In fact my favorite character Oberyn Martel is bi-sexual.
He really was my favorite, because he was very charismatic and interesting. His sexuality suited his passionate personality and didn't come off as forced either.
That's all I have to say for now.
What gaming needs is to stop trying to be like movies and let the player choose. The developers should still be allowed to design the character, but developing the character should be up to the player. Games like Mass Effect and Dragon's Age are good examples. In those games you are a 'hero(ine)' or a 'space commander' and your destiny is to follow the arc of the game story. However, what being that 'hero(ine)' or 'space commander' means is left up to the player. Black, white, blue, blonde, brown, short, tall, skinny, thick, gay, straight, you are allowed to come up with a flavor for your 'hero(ine)' or 'space commander' that resonates with you on a personal level.
So if anything we need more research into how to make the character creation process more fluid and naturally implemented by players, because lists of menus are a good start, but do the medium incredible injustice to its range.
So if anything we need more research into how to make the character creation process more fluid and naturally implemented by players, because lists of menus are a good start, but do the medium incredible injustice to its range.
The video game industry doesn?t need more LGBT protagonists, but it sure would be nice to have more diversity. Of course, they actually have to be good characters first and foremost, rather than falling into the trap of many female videogame characters in having their gender be their defining ?character trait?.
I like to think that Ms. Pac-Man is just Pac-Man crossdressing, anyway (I class ?transvestite? under the ?trans? umbrella in ?LGBT?). And, if you class Morrigan as the main character of Darkstalkers (she?s not, Demitri is, but she?s at least the series' poster child and has appeared in more Capcom crossover games than him), then she?s an example of a bisexual protagonist (and makes more characteristic sense, since she?s a succubus ? although they?re slightly different in the Darkstalkers universe).
But she?s not the protagonist of Final Fight; only a minor enemy, who became so famous because of the controversy surrounding her (e.g. her and her palette swap, Roxy, being replaced by two male thugs in the North American release of the game due to censorship).
I like to think that Ms. Pac-Man is just Pac-Man crossdressing, anyway (I class ?transvestite? under the ?trans? umbrella in ?LGBT?). And, if you class Morrigan as the main character of Darkstalkers (she?s not, Demitri is, but she?s at least the series' poster child and has appeared in more Capcom crossover games than him), then she?s an example of a bisexual protagonist (and makes more characteristic sense, since she?s a succubus ? although they?re slightly different in the Darkstalkers universe).
Already got plenty of gay villains, both in video games and films. It comes with unfortunate implications too.VVThoughtBox said:
I think someone made an extensive video on this a while ago, but yes, Poison had been confirmed as a "newhalf" (a Japanese term for a pre-op trans woman) ever since the original instructional manual for Final Fight. Apparently, many of her win quotes and other characters' win quotes to her in Street Fighter X Tekken imply this further.TristanBelmont said:
But she?s not the protagonist of Final Fight; only a minor enemy, who became so famous because of the controversy surrounding her (e.g. her and her palette swap, Roxy, being replaced by two male thugs in the North American release of the game due to censorship).
It's all about context really.
A wink and a nod towards a protagonist being some part of LGBTQ, just to break the monotony of heteronormativity, would be refreshing.
A purposeful exploration of LGBTQ themes within a game story could also be a powerful thing.
Outside of that, I think LGBTQ characters fit better in a supporting role, or in a larger cast of characters. By not being protagonists they are usually able to be have more developed personalities and better defined arcs. And you can do more with their interactions with the rest of the cast. At least considering how game stories usually go.
A wink and a nod towards a protagonist being some part of LGBTQ, just to break the monotony of heteronormativity, would be refreshing.
A purposeful exploration of LGBTQ themes within a game story could also be a powerful thing.
Outside of that, I think LGBTQ characters fit better in a supporting role, or in a larger cast of characters. By not being protagonists they are usually able to be have more developed personalities and better defined arcs. And you can do more with their interactions with the rest of the cast. At least considering how game stories usually go.
Same answer as always; how many LBGT people do you know? How many characters in games are LBGT? Just pretending that that much of your audience doesn't exist is silly. If a game included no women, or no men, or nobody outside of a certain race, despite taking place in an environment where such people exist, would you not be perplexed?
'Transsexuals' are not 'sexual'. 'Transsexuals' have a brain of gender A in a body of gender B. That means that the trans person's body is incapable of maintaining their brain. This leads to depression, reduced mental faculties, and stunted maturity in trans individuals. HRT helps with the reduced mental faculties, maturity and takes the edge off the depression. Many trans individuals, however, will pursue social gender assimilation to help further alleviate the depression and loneliness brought on by being forced to socialize as and with the wrong demographic.elvor0 said:
Transvestites dress in flamboyant, campy stylizations of cultural genders for performance and/or sexual purposes.
'Transsexuals' and transvestites are NOT the same thing, not even a little.
Your comment is disrespectful and offensive, stop it.
Did you even read my post other than that small, out of context bit you quoted? My opening words were "I'm guessing it's because a transvestite is different from a transexual" in regards to why the T means Transexual, but not Transvestite.Proto Taco said:
Your post is disrespectful and offensive to me, because you didn't bother to read my point properly before jumping on me.
I'll stick it here:
I know Transvestites are not the same as Transexuals, that was the whole point of my post, where I was making a presumption at why Transvestites are not included LGBT, but Transexuls are. They can however, cross over.elvor0 said:
Of course someone can be both a Transvestite and a Transexual. The word transvestite means someone who wears clothes of the opposite sex. It /is/ the case that some pre-op Transexuals wear clothes of the opposite sex, because they are (for example) still /physically/ a man wearing womens clothing until they are post op and become...a woman wearing womens clothing. That doesn't discount how they feel mentally, but pre op the whole concept is that they feel like a Woman in a Mans body, or vice versa.
I did not mean sexual as in "they want to feel sexy in those clothes". I meant it as in they want to be the opposite physical sex, which is what I said, in my original post. "they want to /be/ the opposite sex". Which is of course, the very definition of a Transexual.
Also, not all transvestites do it for performance or sexual purposes, or in flamboyant clothing. Some just like to wear perfectly normal womens clothing because they like them as clothes, or they find them more comfortable. Your statement isn't fair to transvestites, especially not for someone wrongly having a go at me for lumping people together in a catagory. There's a guy on these very forums, who, while is way too cool to be offended at your hypocritical generalization, wears womens clothes, not because he's some flamboyant sexual deviant, but because he likes them as clothes.
Now, regardless of if you're transexual yourself, just a keyboard warrior, or both, I am /not/ apologizing for my original post. Because I didn't say anything distrespectful or offensive, I was making a point to differenciate Transvestites and Transexuals, while stating that there is some overlap between the two, which is true. I have nothing but the utmost respect for all members of the LGBT and Transvestites. But in future, read what someone has said before you start having a go at them for something they didn't say.
Frankly, I have no idea how you could be offended at the statement that some pre op transexuals wear clothes of the opposite gender and are thus transvestites. Are you just looking to annoy yourself on purpose? I'm going with keyboard warrior, because I can't believe that a transexual, for all their trials and hardships, would choose /that/ harmless statement to get worked up about.
Thats what made Volgin's reveal so funny in Metal Gear Solid 3. Its like doppelgang an important solider to sneak into the base for intel. But who could preemptively account for and say wait this is a bad idea, because said solider is the big bad villain's sex toy, and knows his genitals better than anyone else?dunam said:
No fair Kojima.
Immeasureable metrics make for great humor in action stories. Its kinda like wiping out the entire family, and their children so they don't grow up determined to exact an assassin's revenge, only to get killed years later by a distant nephew six times removed..."
Damn you writers!! *shakes fist*
Having more diversity in the sexuality of video game characters would certainly be a positive thing for gaming publicity and it would break up the routine of "muscular, heterosexual, white dude," but you really can't tell writers what to write--that's why a lot of video game and movie stories are so agonizingly bad.
I think most writers tend to write their protagonist as being the same gender, race, and sexuality that they are. It's what they're more familiar with and it's an easier perspective for them to write from. Then again that's just what I think.
The other problem is that with hot-button issues like LGBTQ+ in the United States, it's hard to write an LGBTQ+ character without them being defined by their sexuality and that being the only part of them anyone talks about.
I think most writers tend to write their protagonist as being the same gender, race, and sexuality that they are. It's what they're more familiar with and it's an easier perspective for them to write from. Then again that's just what I think.
The other problem is that with hot-button issues like LGBTQ+ in the United States, it's hard to write an LGBTQ+ character without them being defined by their sexuality and that being the only part of them anyone talks about.
Honestly, LGBT characters kind of weird me out and detract from my ability to enjoy a story. Not saying I dislike, wish to shun, or have a desire to discriminate against them.... it's just my natural reaction.
I would prefer they have their own sub-category within the fiction market to be honest. That way it wouldn't be forced upon anyone in a mainstream sort of way and they could willingly have such characters without the ability to detract from the story while simultaneously being able to be represented in a way they individually choose to be appropriate as people.
That being said... a writer, creator of a fictional work, who isn't from a certain demographic should never be forced to include anything he doesn't feel come naturally to him. I understand the argument and see where you are coming from regarding the whole "representing a certain proportion of [insert a demographic here]". It represents you as a person. It represents your world, your feelings, your perspective. I have no problem with that.
However for as much as it would attract some it would detract others as well.
I hope I don't come off negatively. I am merely stating how I feel as a person.
I would prefer they have their own sub-category within the fiction market to be honest. That way it wouldn't be forced upon anyone in a mainstream sort of way and they could willingly have such characters without the ability to detract from the story while simultaneously being able to be represented in a way they individually choose to be appropriate as people.
That being said... a writer, creator of a fictional work, who isn't from a certain demographic should never be forced to include anything he doesn't feel come naturally to him. I understand the argument and see where you are coming from regarding the whole "representing a certain proportion of [insert a demographic here]". It represents you as a person. It represents your world, your feelings, your perspective. I have no problem with that.
However for as much as it would attract some it would detract others as well.
I hope I don't come off negatively. I am merely stating how I feel as a person.
The "as long as it isn't a focal point" argument is a bit of a weird one, to my eyes. I mean, sure, obviously it's important to have non-straight protagonists who don't just stroll around talking about nothing but how not-straight they are, that'd be cartoonish, but I'm all for games in which the protagonist explores their sexuality or has to deal with how society treats their orientation. That's a story rarely touched upon in gaming, and I'd be interested to see the different variations that might emerge.
And I'm tired of the "who cares, just make good games" defence. Some people actually do care, quite a bit, and trying to include diverse characters isn't going to somehow start making games bad. More diversity in your characters and backgrounds means more diversity available in the stories you can tell. Given how overwhelming the proportion of straight white protagonists to everything else is, I doubt we'll suddenly have the entire industry churning out the gaming equivalent of Captain Planet overnight.
EDIT: AND ONE MORE THING BECAUSE I KEEP SEEING THIS ONE COME UP. "Well, it's only natural, most writers are straight white guys, so obviously they feel more comfortable writing straight white guys." I'm not even going to be nice about this one. If you can only write characters if they match your exact gender/ethnicity/sexuality/whatever, that's a mark against you as a writer. If you can't step out of your own experience, you are going to be severely limited in what you can write. Sure, you probably can't identify perfectly with someone whose life experience is completely different from your own, but you can certainly research the subject, talk to people, get a feel for the topic. That's the excuse of someone who couldn't care enough to do their homework, and who decided that, even though they were ideally placed to do something about so many people who are badly represented in media (if they're even represented at all), that was just too much effort.
And I'm tired of the "who cares, just make good games" defence. Some people actually do care, quite a bit, and trying to include diverse characters isn't going to somehow start making games bad. More diversity in your characters and backgrounds means more diversity available in the stories you can tell. Given how overwhelming the proportion of straight white protagonists to everything else is, I doubt we'll suddenly have the entire industry churning out the gaming equivalent of Captain Planet overnight.
EDIT: AND ONE MORE THING BECAUSE I KEEP SEEING THIS ONE COME UP. "Well, it's only natural, most writers are straight white guys, so obviously they feel more comfortable writing straight white guys." I'm not even going to be nice about this one. If you can only write characters if they match your exact gender/ethnicity/sexuality/whatever, that's a mark against you as a writer. If you can't step out of your own experience, you are going to be severely limited in what you can write. Sure, you probably can't identify perfectly with someone whose life experience is completely different from your own, but you can certainly research the subject, talk to people, get a feel for the topic. That's the excuse of someone who couldn't care enough to do their homework, and who decided that, even though they were ideally placed to do something about so many people who are badly represented in media (if they're even represented at all), that was just too much effort.