Do you consider Lilith Aensland fans Lolicons?

[LilithSlave]

Tell me, then, do you agree with the "don't like it!" part?

I think that people should realize how privileged and dominant the (heterosexual)male gaze is in the video game industry and shouldn't support that.

There are other issues in the media that are problematic than sexualization. Such as female submissiveness. Which I think is why many people in the anime industry found Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt a very refreshing series.

Sexualization of women itself isn't what is the problem, but what it tends to lead to being a part of in the larger picture.

I wouldn't support "liking" the dominance of the heterosexual male gaze being privileged. Because it's rather selfish.

On the other hand, sexual attraction is very natural and people are perfectly welcome to express their sexual desires in an appropriate fashion. Sexual repression is a horrible thing. It would just be nice to see less sexualized female characters when there are already plenty of them, less female characters than rely on sex appeal to be in the game, and more male characters that are sexualized.

 

[JCBFGD]

How old is Lilith? If she's younger than 16 (16 & 17 are kinda grey areas), then yeah, it makes you a paedophile, just one who hasn't fucked real little children.

No.

No? No.

I must've missed the part where being attracted to pre-pubescent people isn't paedophilia and being attracted to pubescent people isn't ephebophilia. Did that change at some point?

I think that people should realize how privileged and dominant the (heterosexual)male gaze is in the video game industry and shouldn't support that.

...

On the other hand, sexual attraction is very natural and people are perfectly welcome to express their sexual desires in an appropriate fashion. Sexual repression is a horrible thing. It would just be nice to see less sexualized female characters when there are already plenty of them, less female characters than rely on sex appeal to be in the game, and more male characters that are sexualized.

Let's pretend that first paragraph is true. Could it simply be a capitalistic pandering to demographics. Yeah, actually, assuming that's true, that's what it is. Catering to demographics.

Now let's go with the truth: it's not. Men and women are fairly equal. Need I point out specific examples? Cate Archer. Femshep. All women in the Sims series. Venus, Barbara, etc. The list goes on. There is no inequality between men and women in society, nor is there any real difference in video games.

Your second (technically last) paragraph...I'm not sure where to even begin. The hypocrisy? Or the hypocrisy? Okay, the hypocrisy. You like an extremely hypersexualised woman. Your anti-hypersexualisation argument is kinda moot. Moving on to the hypocrisy. "Women need to be less sexualised, men need to be more sexualised!" I think that about sums up my argument; the hypocrisy points itself out.

 

[Maze1125]

How old is Lilith? If she's younger than 16 (16 & 17 are kinda grey areas), then yeah, it makes you a paedophile, just one who hasn't fucked real little children.

Actually, paedophilia is defined as the attraction to pre-pubescent children.
Attraction to children during puberty has an entirely different name (one which I can't be bothered to look up right now, I think it begins with an "e").

Edit: Ah, ninja'd by yourself.

 

[LilithSlave]

But in the reasons you stated why you liked Lilith, you included "her clothes! And her demeanor! And her words!", all of which are pretty much central to her sexualization.

I know, that's why I mentioned them.

So you're obviously fine with sexualization in some cases, but don't think it should be that way in all? Is that accurate?

In all? I guess. I think I know what you mean. I certainly wouldn't want all female characters to be like this.

More, I think the video game industry already already has too many characters like Lilith, Morrigan, and Felicia. And we don't need to keep churning them out and making them the dominant face of women in the gaming industry.

 

[Lunar Templar]

*shrugs* i like Felicia and Morrigan better, cause they don't feel as awkward in battle.

sides >.> isn't Lilith 'dead' conically? i seem to recall her ending involving her rejoining/fusing with Morrigan

 

[l3o2828]

Lilith's a boy. /troll

But OT:
I do not think she's a loli, yeah she looks young but nowhere near as young as what is a usual loli.

 

[Risingblade]

No..she's a demon and obviously over 18. You just like petite women, there's nothing wrong with that :/

 

[LilithSlave]

Lilith's a boy. /troll

Actually, I've heard that Lilith's character was originally intended to be male. But they switched it up later and decided to make Lilith female and a part of Morrigan. There's a lot of directions they could have gone with Lilith but didn't.:/

 

[LilithSlave]

And that's where my whole hypocrisy argument lies.

And that's why the hypocrisy argument is stupid.

Because I like a hypersexualized female character, I have to agree with the tendency to do it and double standard in the media? That's ridiculous. That's like saying because I like a white video game character like Lilith I can't concede that there's a problem of underrepresentation of non-whites in video games.

Lilith is basically a "white" video game character, and I like her. By this logic you're calling me a hypocrite, I can't possibly think that black video game characters are underrepresented. And doing so would be hypocrisy. Even though I think that black people are underrepresented in video games and it's very refreshing, that, say, Pokemon Black and White have plenty of black gym leaders and trainers, and thus, more diversity.

Stop interpreting things in terms of such extremes. Because by this logic, someone who likes a white video game character is practically a white supremacist.

 

[Jack and Calumon]

How old is Lilith? If she's younger than 16 (16 & 17 are kinda grey areas), then yeah, it makes you a paedophile, just one who hasn't fucked real little children.

No.

No? No.

I must've missed the part where being attracted to pre-pubescent people isn't paedophilia and being attracted to pubescent people isn't ephebophilia. Did that change at some point?

I've seen pre-pubescent often as younger that 11-13, while the ephebophile area is 14-17. Plus it isn't so clear cut with fictional characters in an anime style, especially if extraordinary circumstances are involved, like in the case here with Lilith being a succubus.

Spoiler: I mean, look here

That girl is, in canon, 9 years old. Not a typo and not joking. She hasn't even made double digits. She is also however an Angel.

See how gray it all is?

OT: No, you're not a lolicon. This girl just has small breasts and appears to be fairly mature in appearance. It's hard to argue for or against wither answer, but I guess knowing her age would help. I'd place her around 15-16, which places you in a safe zone.

Calumon: Why is there a blindfold on me? What, huh, where am I?

Jack: Quiet Calumon, the grown ups are having grown up talk.

 

[JCBFGD]

And that's where my whole hypocrisy argument lies.

And that's why the hypocrisy argument is stupid.

Because I like a hypersexualized female character, I have to agree with the tendency to do it and double standard in the media? That's ridiculous. That's like saying because I like a white video game character like Lilith I can't concede that there's a problem of underrepresentation of non-whites in video games.

Lilith is basically a "white" video game character, and I like her. By this logic you're calling me a hypocrite, I can't possibly think that black video game characters are underrepresented. And doing so would be hypocrisy. Even though I think that black people are underrepresented in video games and it's very refreshing, that, say, Pokemon Black and White have plenty of black gym leaders and trainers, and thus, more diversity.

Stop interpreting things in terms of such extremes. Because by this logic, someone who likes a white video game character is practically a white supremacist.

Because you like the very thing you're bitching about, you've lost all credibility when it comes to that topic. Much like the anti-gay gay Republican has lost all credibility when it comes to anti-gay legislation.

I like how you're trying to make this a race issue when race hasn't been an issue for half a century. Good try. In the media and video games, people cast who's right. It's not racism, and any one who thinks that has, in my experience, been kinda racist themselves. Reverse racism. Now, we're on the topic of women, not blacks, so let's stick there, yes?

If you like this character because she's white, then it's really stupid of you to ***** about how blacks are under-represented. In much the same way, you like Lilith because she's oversexualised, so it's really stupid of you to ***** about how women are oversexualised. Big difference between liking a character because they're X and liking someone who happens to be X. Yours is a case of the former.

How old is Lilith? If she's younger than 16 (16 & 17 are kinda grey areas), then yeah, it makes you a paedophile, just one who hasn't fucked real little children.

No.

No? No.

I must've missed the part where being attracted to pre-pubescent people isn't paedophilia and being attracted to pubescent people isn't ephebophilia. Did that change at some point?

I've seen pre-pubescent often as younger that 11-13, while the ephebophile area is 14-17. Plus it isn't so clear cut with fictional characters in an anime style, especially if extraordinary circumstances are involved, like in the case here with Lilith being a succubus.

Spoiler: I mean, look here

That girl is, in canon, 9 years old. Not a typo and not joking. She hasn't even made double digits. She is also however an Angel.

See how gray it all is?

Gray in terms of dictionary definitions, a clear cut case of paedophilia legally. Also, that's pretty freaking disgusting.

 

[zefiris]

There is no inequality between men and women in society,

Factually incorrect. Wages alone are significantly lower even if the same work is done, and there is a massive disparity in health care, for example. Men get paid viagra, a luxury, whereas women can be denied the pill, even in cases where it is a medical necessity, for example to prevent cancer.

nor is there any real difference in video games.

Factually incorrect. There is a pretty obvious disparity in roles for characters of either gender, even when it makes no logical sense. For example, games like Risen unrealistically portray a medival society where women are absent outside of the kitchen , unlike real medieval societies, where women were visible, and 25% of blacksmiths tended to be female (ex: registers of london, around 1400, had 25% female blacksmiths and 30% female tanners, among others). Similarly, up to 20% of pirate corpses (that participated in battle and worked on the ship according to the bone wear) that we found are of women, yet gamers and developers alike cling to the unrealistic fantasy version where pirates were all male. This is artificial sexism at the expense of female characters solely so insecure male gamers can play characters in a fantasy setting where women are largely invisible.

You're hurting your point by stating that things are true that are blatantly false.

"Women need to be less sexualised, men need to be more sexualised!" I think that about sums up my argument; the hypocrisy points itself out.

Actually, that argument isn't hypocritical at all. Let me use an example that you can easily understand. Room A and B have temperatures that are not comfortable. Room A is too cold, and Room B is too hot. To have both rooms at a comfortable temperature, we need more heat in room A, and less heat in room B.

Even you must understand that arguing that both rooms need to be heated is stupid.

Just because room A need more heat doesn't mean room B also needs more heat. Sometimes, different problems need different solutions. In this case, yes, to have any sort of parity we'd need more sexualisation of male characters, and less of female characters, so both are equally sexualized and both genders get what they want.

 

[LilithSlave]

Because you like the very thing you're bitching about

No, stop interpreting things in ridiculous extremes.

I like how you're trying to make this a race issue when race hasn't been an issue for half a century.

I'm not making it a race issue any more than you're making it a gay issue with all the gay republican comparisons. I LIKE HOW YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE THIS A GAY ISSUE, NICE TRY. HAR HAR HAR.

And race hasn't been an issue for half a century? Only if you're blinded by white privilege. Western society is hugely permeated by white privilege. Racism is still very alive. And the video game culture certainly has huge, whopping degrees of white privilege and has almost no characters that are not white.

Good try. In the media and video games, people cast who's right.

YEAH, THEY CAST WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE WHITE IS RIGHT! FREAKING REVERSE RACISM!

Almost everyone in video games just happens to be coincidentally white. There couldn't possibly be any cultural racism that leads to this, could there?

Now, we're on the topic of women, not blacks, so let's stick there, yes?

IT'S OKAY FOR ME TO MAKE COMPARISONS RELATED TO GAY PEOPLE AND HOMOPHOBIA BUT IT'S NOT OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO MAKE RACE COMPARISONS IN A GENDER DISCUSSION.

Caps lock for fun. And not being too serious all the time maybe something.

Edit: Top notch arguing there, zefiris! I'm impressed and agree. Wow, this has become another thread about sexism and sexism in the game industry.

 

[Vereth]

She has a bubbly personality, but not any more so than, say, Felicia. And why would a sexually active succubus(or heavily implied, at least) have "the mind of a little girl"? Because if anything, that's gross. They shouldn't be having a succubus, who acts more flirtatious than Morrigan as being stated as anything like having the "mind of a child". If she really is stated to be like this anywhere, can we retcon this please and make it less like this? Because a character stated to have the mind of a child should not act this sexually suggestive in a mainstream video game. Make her "piece of Morrigan soul" angle less important and give her own story. With lots of new characterization and development. Heck, I'd love to play a whole game about her. I've been dying for a lot of cool characterization about her since they introduced her but never got any.

If you've played the games then you know her attacks and animations are goofy and childlike (she even has a Dan fireball). Her voice is too but I guess that doesn't mean much in a Japanese game (Felicia). The wiki says "The body she received from Jedah was the image that Lilith wanted to be, obviously an imitation of Morrigan" and that it possibly reflects her personality. But here's a win quote:

"I can't stand this! I want my real body!"

It implies that she isn't satisfied with the body she has, and wants to grow up or wants to look like Morrigan, which is childish. And then there's the innuendo...

"I've never experienced this before but... it feels great!"

Umm... yeah.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[sub]I love that saying.[/sub]

You can try to legitimise it as much as you want, 'dude, she's not really a little girl, she's 500 years old!'.

Yeah, that doesn't really cut it

 

[JCBFGD]

Spoiler: Response to Zefiris

There is no inequality between men and women in society,

Factually incorrect. Wages alone are significantly lower even if the same work is done, and there is a massive disparity in health care, for example. Men get paid viagra, a luxury, whereas women can be denied the pill, even in cases where it is a medical necessity, for example to prevent cancer.

nor is there any real difference in video games.

Factually incorrect. There is a pretty obvious disparity in roles for characters of either gender, even when it makes no logical sense. For example, games like Risen unrealistically portray a medival society where women are absent outside of the kitchen , unlike real medieval societies, where women were visible, and 25% of blacksmiths tended to be female (ex: registers of london, around 1400, had 25% female blacksmiths and 30% female tanners, among others). Similarly, up to 20% of pirate corpses (that participated in battle and worked on the ship according to the bone wear) that we found are of women, yet gamers and developers alike cling to the unrealistic fantasy version where pirates were all male. This is artificial sexism at the expense of female characters solely so insecure male gamers can play characters in a fantasy setting where women are largely invisible.

You're hurting your point by stating that things are true that are blatantly false.

"Women need to be less sexualised, men need to be more sexualised!" I think that about sums up my argument; the hypocrisy points itself out.

Actually, that argument isn't hypocritical at all. Let me use an example that you can easily understand. Room A and B have temperatures that are not comfortable. Room A is too cold, and Room B is too hot. To have both rooms at a comfortable temperature, we need more heat in room A, and less heat in room B.

Even you must understand that arguing that both rooms need to be heated is stupid.

Just because room A need more heat doesn't mean room B also needs more heat. Sometimes, different problems need different solutions. In this case, yes, to have any sort of parity we'd need more sexualisation of male characters, and less of female characters, so both are equally sexualized and both genders get what they want.

I wasn't aware that $0.98 USD was significantly lower than $1.00 USD. I'll concede that. But I will also point you to my mother: she's simultaneously in college, working at a hospital, and taking care of some things here and there at home. She couldn't do this 30-50 years ago. If you say her sex is still unequal, then you're not paying close enough attention. Also, I think saying she's still unequal is a little bit sexist, ironically enough. She begs to differ.

I will also concede that, in terms of reproductive rights, women are at a loss. I'm pro-choice, and I encourage that type of legislation. The situation in America is horrendous.

To your video game argument: Did you really expect a developer to rigorously study the history of women? If you did, then you have stupidly, ridiculously high expectations. They're in the business of making games, not researching women's role in history.

You're totally right, I totally forgot that the amount of heat in a room is something that some people mistakenly consider to be an important social issue. Bad metaphor, but I see what you're trying to say. Wanting one sex less sexualised while another is oversexualised is hypocrisy. In my opinion, if we're using your metaphor, I'd personally prefer both rooms to be cold. The thing is, I think they're both pretty goddamn cold right now.

Spoiler: Response to LilithSlave

Because you like the very thing you're bitching about

No, stop interpreting things in ridiculous extremes.

I like how you're trying to make this a race issue when race hasn't been an issue for half a century.

I'm not making it a race issue any more than you're making it a gay issue with all the gay republican comparisons. I LIKE HOW YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE THIS A GAY ISSUE, NICE TRY. HAR HAR HAR.

And race hasn't been an issue for half a century? Only if you're blinded by white privilege. Western society is hugely permeated by white privilege. Racism is still very alive. And the video game culture certainly has huge, whopping degrees of white privilege and has almost no characters that are not white.

Good try. In the media and video games, people cast who's right.

YEAH, THEY CAST WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE WHITE IS RIGHT! FREAKING REVERSE RACISM!

Almost everyone in video games just happens to be coincidentally white. There couldn't possibly be any cultural racism that leads to this, could there?

Now, we're on the topic of women, not blacks, so let's stick there, yes?

IT'S OKAY FOR ME TO MAKE COMPARISONS RELATED TO GAY PEOPLE AND HOMOPHOBIA BUT IT'S NOT OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO MAKE RACE COMPARISONS IN A GENDER DISCUSSION.

Caps lock for fun. And not being too serious all the time maybe something.

Edit: Top notch arguing there, zefiris! I'm impressed and agree. Wow, this has become another thread about sexism and sexism in the game industry.

Not very extreme. Don't even see how one could interpret it as extreme unless they're simply trying to win a debate by discrediting their opponent's points without actually addressing them.

You went into detail about the race thing. Like you're doing again, right now. I didn't get into the gay thing at all. If you wanna get into the race thing, PM me for a separate debate. This is about women, not blacks. Like I asked before, let's stick with the topic of the debate.

The rest of your post is just you trying to simultaneously discredit me using faulty logic (specifically, argument by vehemence and changing the subject) and avoiding my points.

Can we get back to the actual debate, or are you just going to spend the rest of your time and mine doing the above?

 

[Mabster]

When it comes down to it, plenty of female characters in Japanese entertainment look way younger than they perhaps should. The pretend age, or any backstory that they might cook up for a character like that just doesn't matter when we're talking about sex appeal.

If you're saying she doesn't look like a kid to you, then wouldn't that settle it? I think at worst, I might question your sense of aesthetics.

Bottom line: it's fiction -- who cares!