Do you consider Lilith Aensland fans Lolicons?

[Sylveria]

Tell me, then, do you agree with the "don't like it!" part?

I think that people should realize how privileged and dominant the (heterosexual)male gaze is in the video game industry and shouldn't support that.

There are other issues in the media that are problematic than sexualization. Such as female submissiveness. Which I think is why many people in the anime industry found Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt a very refreshing series.

Sexualization of women itself isn't what is the problem, but what it tends to lead to being a part of in the larger picture.

I wouldn't support "liking" the dominance of the heterosexual male gaze being privileged. Because it's rather selfish.

On the other hand, sexual attraction is very natural and people are perfectly welcome to express their sexual desires in an appropriate fashion. Sexual repression is a horrible thing. It would just be nice to see less sexualized female characters when there are already plenty of them, less female characters than rely on sex appeal to be in the game, and more male characters that are sexualized.

I don't get it.. there's plenty of ripped, shirtless dudes running around in video games and anime waving their phallic symbols around and talking about bitches. The sexualization is there and probably there in higher volume than with women when you think about it. The only difference is you don't get any feminism points if you get offended by that. Not to mention there's hundreds of games out there which feature female characters that aren't the least bit sexualized, but again, you don't get any feminism points for talking about those. Really, that's what a lot of this stuff boils down to if you ask me, a lot of overblown outrage by guys pretending to be feminists to score non-existent points.

Really, gamers need to grow up and stop acting like prudes or dudes about this stuff. Certainly not doing us any favors to shake the stigmas of being misogynistic or permavirgins when you have people like Bob or Linkara constantly bitching about this stuff when you can't walk through a mall without seeing a dozen stores that have never held a video game featuring posters with buff guys in their underpants dripping with sweat in them or women in theirs doing the same to sell body spray, clothes, or cheese graters. Both genders get their fair share of it. It's out there, it's in everything, get over it already.

They especially need to get over this crap when it comes to loli and young women chracters in GAMES, Christ, there's FAR more heinous stuff out there that's very, very real, Toddlers and Tiara's for example. Frankly, if you're not going to the beach and protesting these moms that put their 4yr old in a two piece, why the heck so offensive to you about characters in a game? Shouldn't you have more lofty ambitions? Oh wait, you won't get internet-feminist points that way.

Let's not forget that Rule 34 exists while we're at it. If the game doesn't sexualize something, the fans sure as hell will. Heck (DON'T)look at (Really, don't) the mountains of shota stuff that Kingdom Hearts birthed and the little boys in that game couldn't be less sexual. How many out-rage threads do you see about that atrocity? Oh, what? Cause they aren't portrayed that way in the game it's okay? If you say so, frankly the fans have done far more creepy stuff with those characters than anything I've seen with Lilith.

By the by, Lilith, I'd consider Demetri's skin-tight "suit" showing off his abs and package sexualization to. Not to mention Lilith IS a succubus, sorta, it's kinda her shtick.

 

[Loop Stricken]

So, err...

Lilith, not paedo? We decided now? We cool?

 

[Tony2077]

considering what Lilith is and what lolicon means i don't think so

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

snip

I thought this was about fighting games? I'm not talking about games as a whole. I thought we were discussing one genre.

 

[NikolaiK]

I will not stand for reverse discrimination.

So you decline that male privilege and white privilege exists, even though it plainly obvious that games more than anything cater to the desire of the typical white heterosexual male. And that the desires of homosexuals, women, and non-whites are treated as fairly unimportant?

That is blind.

No, blindness is staring so hard at your copy of Feminism 101 that you fail to see that you are attempting to link male and white privilege, social darwinism (an idea that is thoroughly discredited) and the desires of 'homosexual, women and non-whites' to a computer simulation of people hitting each other.
And also, that is not what I am saying. I am not saying that there is no descrimination on behalf of white males anywhere. What I am saying is that the whole of society, all over the world, is not(edit needed, with the not removed the point I am trying to put across disappears) solely dedicated to the continuation of 'white privilege'. Seriously, race is not important. More harm is done by trying to enforce the concept of white guilt than good.

 

[Mr Pantomime]

Oh for fucks sake, I wanted to talk about Darkstalkers and Lolicon, but suddenly everyone is a Nazi. Why does this always happen?!

 

[LilithSlave]

Yes they are.

Female sexuality has to do with their hips and waist mainly, and their chest can play and important part as well.

Male sexuality has to do with appearances of strength or physical ability, and later in human history heightened mental ability could play a role as well, but not as much a physical appearance.

That is a standard. It is also a sexist standard.

One that treats women as attractive because of their bodies/weaknesses.

But treats men as good or "attractive" because of their strengths/abilities.

We can have this discussion elsewhere. Can we not wash this subject with my opinions of gender just because some users have a bone to pick with me for being a feminist and want to take any opportunity to slip me up? Seriously, what was this discussion about again?

 

[NikolaiK]

That is a standard. It is also a sexist standard.

One that treats women as attractive because of their bodies/weaknesses.

But treats men as good or "attractive" because of their strengths/abilities.

Strengths and abilities based on... their physical strength! Otherwise known as their... bodies!

 

[wintercoat]

Oh for fucks sake, I wanted to talk about Darkstalkers and Lolicon, but suddenly everyone is a Nazi. Why does this always happen?!

Godwin's Law man. Godwin's Law. Every road leads to Nazis.

 

[Cowabungaa]

That is a standard. It is also a sexist standard.

One that treats women as attractive because of their bodies/weaknesses.

But treats men as good or "attractive" because of their strengths/abilities.

Weaknesses? When I look at those fighting games, I see hyper-sexualized women, yes, but I also see them kicking major ass, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The main medium where I see women portrayed as attractive thanks to their weaknesses isn't even Western at all, it's anime. No small wonder really, considering the status of the female gender in that country, though it's luckily improving. But now this:

No, I'm pointing out consistent social constructs in the macrocosm of Western society that has existed since the era of Nazis and the prominence of the klan and other similar Social Darwinist groups. How their thought has not been eradicated. And how the video game industry has symptoms of that way of thinking.

Makes even less sense.

And it already made fairly little sense, and that these bad gender standards can be explained in a way simpler way. I'll just quote myself because it seems to have sailed over you somehow:

Really, this has nothing to do with Social Darwinism. You're really thinking it through way too much. It's simply hundreds of thousands of years of having a fixed order in gender roles not being erased from the public consciousness in a couple of decades.

Look, we're talking about a young medium that's still being predominantly aimed at teenage boys. Teenage boys like hot babes thanks to hormones and shit, and want to be the alpha male also thanks to hormones and shit. I mean for heaven's sake the games we're talking about here aren't even Western, and are filled with all kinds of weird characters.

So giving them those caricatures caters to their needs and that gets gaming companies lots of money. There's really no need to bring übermensch philosophies into this. It's just not that complicated, Occam's Razor, stuff like that.

Really, your stuff is pretty far 'out there'. Vidja games are still a business, it's just about money in the end.

That reminds me. Anyone else really pissed off that hitler had to go and ruin a both a perfectly good first name and a mustache style?

Adolf a good first name? Sounds pretty goofy to me. Shame about the 'stache though, poor Charlie Chaplin deserves credit for that.

 

[LilithSlave]

You know what? Forget it. I will not merit this kind of stuff with a proper response. Sorry to say this, but you are so far gone, you need to take a step back and read that again. Thats one of the most deluded things I have ever read on this forum.

You attack someone for not immediately responding with complicated explanations, but simply saying "no".

But then you turn around and say something like "I will not merit this kind of stuff with a proper response". Like ridiculing the other user and refusing to respond has any kind of god damn merit.

 

[wintercoat]

Oh for fucks sake, I wanted to talk about Darkstalkers and Lolicon, but suddenly everyone is a Nazi. Why does this always happen?!

Godwin's Law man. Godwin's Law. Every road leads to Nazis.

That reminds me. Anyone else really pissed off that hitler had to go and ruin a both a perfectly good first name and a mustache style?

Michael Jordan questions why you added the mustache thing. [http://api.ning.com/files/sh8P-F6zjwDlnp9XYNYenPoBx2FZWAAGorN-PC3lD1nD6p3xCw6wohMRnC*fdmP81Y2god1JXo*ob94Tk3jqNcdMcvTEIZI8/miacheljordanhitlermoustache.jpeg]

 

[snagli]

Liking Lilith Aensland makes you a Lolicon as much as liking Pinkie Pie makes you a furry.

Which means, not at all.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

snip

I thought this was about fighting games? I'm not talking about games as a whole. I thought we were discussing one genre.

Actually we were talking about gaming in general, but fair enough, fighting games then. Dodged a bullet there, didnt you? Heres another one.

We are back to square one; is it really such a terrible thing that one single genre panders to a certain gender? If we are just talking about fighting games...

Well, the other day, I watched a romantic comedy, and it clearly pandered to women. Do I mind? No, because its one genre of film, created only for women, and women enjoy it. Why is it such a terrible thing to have the same thing in gaming, with fighting games? As you can see in my previous post, there are more than enough games that do not feature powerful white guys beating each other up, why is having 3 games that do feature them such a terrible thing?

I have never seen a fighting game that didn't pull the fan service card. I'd just like devs to realize that their players are not all 13 year old boys. Personally, I feel insulted that they do that because they think that it is how you get me to buy a game.

 

[LilithSlave]

Really, this has nothing to do with Social Darwinism. You're really thinking it through way too much. It's simply hundreds of thousands of years of having a fixed order in gender roles not being erased from the public consciousness in a couple of decades.

Social Darwinist thought was hugely influential and hand in hand with racism and sexism and other problems in general. And even if the technical term could just be seen as a passing phase, something just like it was present all throughout much of Western society for a very, very long time. Racisms and sexisms and classisms, that while not part of any "social darwinist school", are essentially close enough. And basically the same thing, just without the "Social Darwinist" name. The gender roles you talk about are Social Darwinist and male supremacist in nature.

And telling someone they think things through too much, is a horrible rebuttal.

and want to be the alpha male also thanks to hormones and shit.

Hormones do not cause sexism. They wish to dominate over women and be an "alpha male" because of sexist thought.

Liking Lilith Aensland makes you a Lolicon as much as liking Pinkie Pie makes you a furry.

Which means, not at all.

Oh yeah, we were talking about this. Thank you.