Do you consider Lilith Aensland fans Lolicons?
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No, they're not, not even remotely. Those gender roles not only pre-date Social Darwinism, they also pre-date Western civilization and civilization itself. Women have been the care-takers for hundreds of thousands of years, and men have been the warriors for the same amount of time. Blaming this on Social Darwinism ruling the European continent for a couple of years is just plain silly, gender roles sit way deeper in the human psyche than that.LilithSlave said:
And that's exactly what makes changing humanity's way of thinking about it so damn difficult. Those roles have been with us for so damn long that you can't just poof them away in a couple of years. We're trying, and making pretty good progress considering from where we started from, but you shouldn't be expecting miracles.
To post an example, look at this little thing:
Notice the enlarged hips, the huge breasts, the over-sized vagina. All showing a woman's gender role according to the carver; makin' babies. How old is it? Between 35.000 and 40.000 years old. Just a wee bit older than Social Darwnist thought, a school of thought around 150-ish year old. See where I'm getting at?
That's not the point. Those hormones cause teenage boys to want certain things. Certain game developers cater to those teenage boys wanting those things because that earns them money. That's it. No crazy Aryan nonsense involved.
Also, hormones do cause sexist thought, to a certain extent. That's because gender roles, at least in a sexual sense and once again to a certain extent, are pretty much ingrained in us biologically. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to rise above it, of course, something we're doing pretty well considering the circumstances.
Funny thing is is that these things have been explained to you before by multiple people in different threads, but somehow you keep ignoring them, well, exactly like those 'silly Creationists' as you described a few posts back. Why is that?
I don't think she's an adult. But loli (as in Rachel or Platinum from BB), nah.Loop Stricken said:
Persona 4 Arena. There's a little (mainly Mitsuru's redesign) but for the most part it's pretty tame.RedEyesBlackGamer said:
OP said he's "perversely and creepily obsessed".totally heterosexual said:
The argument of whether the world's most possibly strong man would be stronger than the world's most possibly strong woman and comparing strengths of genders, would add one more arguement to the pot that it doesn't need. Considering anti-feminists have already done this much to derail me based upon false dichotomies.NikolaiK said:
But you're basically at the point of answer the problem of sexism with "but men are superior! ... what's the problem?". And saying male supremacy is sexy and biological fact.
Making men muscular normalizes male strength and female weakness. Video games should not be trying to say that men are superior and women are these things. Attributing unlikely or impossible muscles to men even though women are plenty capable of developing muscles. Exaggerating and setting in stone differences that do not exist. Giving women back breaking boobs and men impossible muscles, practically disabling women and practically turning men into gods. And then saying "it's okay! Both are sexy!"
No, that's just a bad justification. And also completely and conveniently ignores yet again what women want, in favor of some vague, male supremacist ideal of attraction. A lot of supposed "secondary sex characteristics" are only things that happen slightly more in men. For instance, women are plenty able to develop muscle. And plenty of women natural grow a lot of hair. And pushing things into such extremes is a lot more flattering to men than women.
There's no reason to assume this is coincidental that media focuses on supposes strengths of men as if they only belong to men, only because they're more common. And focus on weaknesses of women as if they're only belonging to women.
And they normalize it and treat other desires as irrelevant.Cowabungaa said:
The desires of teenage boys and adult men are not superior to everyone else's.
/googled character since i didnt know who she was... thats not a loli :/ she's to old... too tall...
What I find funny is all the games that do try to appeal to girls are Japanese and men hate them for it (as shown by you insulting the protagonist by calling them girly). So why is is that girls are suppose to sit by and ignore all the fanservice while men freak out at the slightest hint of manservice?SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Also how the fuck does Dante look like a girl? When people say he looks like he just walked out of a gay strip club I can't argue with that (but I do enjoy it, his looks not arguing) but a girl? Really?
I would also like to point out it took three games for Mass Effect to allow you to be a gay man while you could be les in the first one. Thankfully Bioware improved but gamers are still intolerant since the lesbian thing was okay but EA gets hate letters for having a gay male relationship.
OT: Nah Lilith looks too old. Loli's look like little girls not teenagers.
No. Nonono.JCBFGD said:
Pedophilia.
Hebephilia.
Ephebophilia.
Even then, take the articles with a grain of salt. "Wikipedia isn't biased" my ass.
No. He'd be a fan of a character with said characteristics. You aren't a fan of FPSs if you just like Portal.
He doesn't hypersexualize, Lillith is already hypersexualized.
Now leaving the thread for a bit as I can just predict what will happen with me talking about this subject.
No, they're not, not even remotely. Those gender roles not only pre-date Social Darwinism[/quote]Cowabungaa said:
As a school of thought, yet. But those values are almost identical anyway.
What was that about "quacks like a duck" some people were saying? Those values quacked like a Social Darwinism.
Also, I've reason to believe there were matriarchal societies and that it isn't in our nature to put men above women. By chance, they were mostly killed of. Like how by chance, and not the "natural order of things", white people happened to be the ones to colonize. It could have been anyone else. Christianity and Rome did a lot to kill matriarchal societies.
Right, just like there has been racism towards black people for so long, white privilege is no where near gone. But I believe it is mostly social constructs, not physical chains binding us.Cowabungaa said:
Remember how it was said that one can't simply respond with "no it's not".Cowabungaa said:
You haven't proved anything. PROVE IT. You make an extraordinary claim, back it up.
I didn't ignore it, I disagreed with it. Because it's WRONG.Cowabungaa said:
This has to be one of the weirdest fuckin' thread I've ever come across on this site.
ANYWHO: After doing a quick google search I could see how someone can see lolicon in the character, but to me it seems a bit of a reach. She just looks like a flat chested demon chick to me(except for the very clear lolicon porn depictions of her). However your "enjoyment" of her shall we say, is very very very very very very very very very very ... very creepy, and you should probably re-evaluate a few things in your life, and maybe go outside, and/or meet someone, somehow, and never ever tell them about your favorite game character, ever.
ANYWHO: After doing a quick google search I could see how someone can see lolicon in the character, but to me it seems a bit of a reach. She just looks like a flat chested demon chick to me(except for the very clear lolicon porn depictions of her). However your "enjoyment" of her shall we say, is very very very very very very very very very very ... very creepy, and you should probably re-evaluate a few things in your life, and maybe go outside, and/or meet someone, somehow, and never ever tell them about your favorite game character, ever.
Of course they're not not, but it just happens to be the target audience for videogames, especially fighters, for quite some time now and it's a group they can earn a lot of money from. It has nothing to do with superiority or anything, it's just about making money. No Aryan sub-culture, no male privilege theories, just plain ol' money. It motivates a lot of things.LilithSlave said:
You're looking at it the other way around. Those modern sexist ways of thinking are a reaction on schools of thought that fight for gender equality, a movement that's relatively new in our 200.000 year history as a species.LilithSlave said:
Really? Just look at old tribes in Africa, Asia or the America's. Do they look matriachal to you?
But even if they were ruled by women, there were still fixed gender roles; women were baby makin' care-takers, men were warriors and hunters. And those are the roles still embedded in us today and what we're trying to change. And once again, that's gonna take some time.
No where near is pushing it, but yes that's the reason.Yyes, those things are social constructs as well. Problem is that those social constructs are embedded really deep into our collective sub-concious. Thousands upon thousands of years, way longer than racism.
Extraordinary? I learned that stuff during my second year of high school. It's really not that hard to grasp now is it? Puberty brings sexual maturation, which is caused by hormones. That sexual maturation sadly doesn't come with mental maturation right away, causing teenagers to do all kinds of stupid shit and wanting stupid shit and looking at girls in a funny way. Certain videogame companies play right into their hands by making games that fuel their fantasies.
Is it purely biological? No, of course not, I never said that, I clearly said "to a certain extent" didn't I? But do the hormones help? Of course.
You're not presenting a counter-argument though, nothing to show that what we're saying is wrong. A case of cognitive dissonance perhaps?
Lol, most of my friends are yaoi addicted shotacons obsessed with things like Loveless and Axis Powers Hetalia. And some people who consider themselves Lolicons among them. And we're all going to A-Kon in Dallas very soon.chiggerwood said:
I just didn't count myself among them because I didn't count myself a lolicon. I'm not into underage anime characters and I don't even really super like the young looking adult thing. I tolerate and respect them for it, but it's not really my thing. I love them and respect them and trust them, and I don't care that they're a bunch of lolicons and shotacons because I know they'd never hurt children.
... seriously. Like 1/3 of my friends want to bang Sora from Kingdom Hearts.
But the whole Lilith thing made me start to go "woah. Maybe I'm more like them than I thought I was."
In DD tits, how ridiculous. Because someone with DD tits totally have a body for "kicking major ass" and being shown as beating someone up despite this, totally makes up for it.Cowabungaa said:
It is now way past my beddybyes time, so I shall say, Lilith Aensland fans are only lolicon if they want to have sex with her because they consider her a child, thank you for debating feminism with me, even if the end was unsatisfying and goodnight and thanks for all the fish.LilithSlave said:
I said nothing of a subculture of any kind being important. I said that the macrocosm of Western culture in relation to gender and gender norms, is oddly similar to Aryanist and Social Darwinist though.Cowabungaa said:
The Nazis are dead, but the values about gender, race, and sexuality, are surviving surprisingly well. And that's all I was saying.
Supply and demand, and social problems like male privilege are intricately related.Cowabungaa said:
If nobody sold or made music with black musicians in it, because "nobody wants to buy music with black people in it", you could say it's "just money". But it's not just money, the things people are interested in buying are, unsurprisingly, related to racist and sexist cultural constructs.
I said video game culture, and Western culture, and all of the societies of the world themselves, have problems. That isn't singling out video game developers. Video game companies are not a subculture of sexists, of course not. That would be a horrible strawman of my position. No, Western society itself, has values in modern times, which are oddly similar to Social Darwinist thought. And that trickles down to various media.
Subcultures don't do crap. It's the little problems in the culture of the entire world that's a problem. But you'd be wrong to think that the world culture at large, and media, have nothing to do with each other at all. With no exchange or influence on each other of any variety.
Well that's another kettle of fish right there considering one's a vampire and the other's three people.Vereth said:
The opinions of this thread seems split indeed. But generally leaning in a direction that makes me feel creepy. That's not cool. Why can't there be more androgynous women in gaming that don't fall into "too youthful" category. I don't like curves.:<
And I hang out with friends all the time! Friends who are often much creepier than me!
Well there's my self esteem boost of the day!chiggerwood said:
Re-evaluate what in my life?chiggerwood said:
And I hang out with friends all the time! Friends who are often much creepier than me!