Do you have to like a character before you consider them good?

[pyramid head grape]

You know those godawful threads that are born when someone encounters an opinion that conflicts with their own and goes running to the internet in search of confirmation? Yeah, well, this is essentially one of those... sorry 'bout that. But stick with me, there's a bit more to this.

...

So... while reading the numerous threads relating to the Mass Effect games I noticed a bit of hate toward the character Jack/Subject Zero. Now, we're not talking Metroid Other M-level hate or anything, just the normal everyday variety.

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a *****."

Now, this seems a bit odd to me. It's akin to hating Hannibal Lecter because he's a cannibalistic murder. Yes, he is, but that's kinda the point. Same with Jack. Yes, she's a *****, and refers to herself as such, but that's exactly what she's supposed to be. She has a severely fucked up past, deep-seated trust issues and a very low opinion of humanity in general. Couple that with a significant degree of raw power and you get a vicious *****. If you regard her as such, doesn't that mean she is a well made character?

Anyway, moving on from the horrific and traumatising prospect of people on the internet not liking something that I like, this got me thinking. If you do not like a character, if they illicit a negative response, does that automatically mean they are poorly executed and therefore a bad character?

It's not hard to think of other examples.

Like, say, Justicar Samara. (My apologies to those of you who are really sick of hearing about ME2.) I didn't like her at all. She's merciless, cold, rigid and dogmatic. She did gain a significant bit of warmth after her loyalty mission, but overall I found her somewhat unsettling, even a bit creepy. However, on reflection, I would say that's an indication of a quality character. After all, she's the product of an alien society (literally) and even her own kind consider her to be an extremist of sorts.

Or, if I really want to put this to the test, how about Hope from Final Fantasy XIII? (Cue chorus of groans.) I hated that little wet rodent. Every time he was on screen I found myself hoping (hurr hurr) that he would fall off a cliff or get eaten by something. However, rather than cursing the game's writers for making me put up with him for 17 hours, should I instead be praising their perfect depiction of an irritating and angsty teenage male?

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Okay, that post got awfully verbose. Excessively so, in fact. I wonder how many people will just go, "Waaagh! Words! TL;DR!" But I think I've made my point.

So... thoughts?

HOPE ... HOPE!! don't get me started on that mummy's boy granted I hated all the characters in FF-XIII YES ALL OFF THEM he is my most hated character ever from my most hated game ever.

So no I can't for give squire enix for this I took my FF13 and hit it with a stick in my garden until it broke into tiny pieces, I wish I was kidding.

 

[StBishop]

I hated Morrigan for so long. But needing a mage due to decisions at the circle led me to only having her as an option, after a while (and almost every gift in the game) she grew on me.
I think it's good to make a *****/arse character and then develop them in such a way that, despite being an arse, they're nice to the PC.

That's a good character to me.

Making a character that's an arse for no reason, when they're supposed to be my companion, that's a dick move in my mind.

What you described for Jack (Not finished with ME yet, so not started ME2) is a shitty (in my mind) character to have as a companion but not a shitty character in general.

See, this is were I start getting confused. I don't see why a game should have to surround the protagonist with yes-men. I realise that this plays into the fact that games are often about wish-fulfillment, but I still find it excessive.

Personally, I liked Morrigan when she was making sarcastic remarks and calling me out on all my goody-two-shoes acts of charity to random strangers (read: side missions) while there was an entire world that needed saving.

That said, her later character development was still welcome.

I don't think everyone need to agree with me, or that they even need to like me. But why would the warden allow them to come along if they were arses the whole time?
See Sten, he always told me I was being dishonourable, or that I was less powerful than he had heard Wardens were (which was ironic because my character was a monster, Sword and Board but still managed to hit the 250 damage achievement, with so much life it was beyond a joke. Hard mode was a cake walk.).
I still liked Sten though, because I understood everything he did and said, Morrigan was ridiculous and often would have a go at me for not helping people.
She just seemed inconsistent and always fucking disapproved with nearly everything I did. The only way to make her not hate me was to talk to her all the fucking time at camp and give her ALL the gifts.
I think it's not so much that she disagreed, it's that she was a ***** about it.

 

[shadyh8er]

Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right.

What if they're just fun to watch, like say, the Joker or Alex from A Clockwork Orange? I mean I know they're both heartless brutes, but I just can't help but to feel some sort of admiration for them.

 

[MrJoyless]

I hate Fang from final fantasy 13, but i still consider her an interesting character. Mainly because of her backstory.

Her and maybe Orlandu Holy Swordsman from FFTactics...his character was amazingly powerful and with a great story but i sure as hell didnt like him...too goodie goodie for me even if he was TGCid

 

[Truly-A-Lie]

Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right.

What if they're just fun to watch, like say, the Joker or Alex from A Clockwork Orange? I mean I know they're both heartless brutes, but I just can't help but to feel some sort of admiration for them.

Yeah I should've said not all villains, but there's definitely some that we are supposed to hate. You're right in that there's usually a certain charm to most bad guys though, unless they're hideous and completely evil like the Chimera or something.

 

[shadyh8er]

Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right.

What if they're just fun to watch, like say, the Joker or Alex from A Clockwork Orange? I mean I know they're both heartless brutes, but I just can't help but to feel some sort of admiration for them.

Yeah I should've said not all villains, but there's definitely some that we are supposed to hate. You're right in that there's usually a certain charm to most bad guys though, unless they're hideous and completely evil like the Chimera or something.

Hehe, yeah. Can't wait to finish those fuckers off in Resistance 3.

Captcha: from mmenizen

You wouldn't happen to know where mmenizen is do you?

 

[Xaositect]

I liked Ashley as a good character, but wasnt particularly fond of her in game because she was so well written. She had her own opinions and beliefs, and I thought they were stupid and didnt like them. Not because they were poorly written, I just disagreed.

Pretty good character IMO.

Jack? I think shes an absolutely shit character. Shes a similar sort of romance Bioware have already done in the past, but back then it was done far better (Viconia - fall in love with the evil chick and redeem her because of it/discover her sad past and why she is the way she is).

The difference is Viconias romance was far better written, and she didnt do things like tell you to fuck off all the time and generally annoy you. All in all, it was a haphazard romance with an unlikeable character where he attitude and appearance didnt make me want to "discover her soft, wounded side".

What I get from those two different cases is that it just varies from time to time. I have no idea who Im going to like or hate and for what reasons. I guess thats part of the appeal, and disappointment too.

 

[teqrevisited]

I hate Benny from FNV so damn much. But he is a good character because every time I meet him I keep thinking "Well he doesn't seem so bad for a guy who shot me in the face".

Almost exactly what I was thinking, except every time I caught up with him I just thought it sounded like he was trying to weasel his way out of a confrontation. I had him crucified and, while he was hanging there, crippled his limbs with a sledgehammer.

Proof that good characters don't require that you like them to be good characters.

 

[awmperry]

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a *****."

Well, she is. She's annoying and infuriating and whiny and possesses that "I don't care what anyone else thinks, I'm all that matters" attitude that annoys me about so many people. I kept her in my squad only when I needed her. I couldn't stand her.

In essence, she is exactly that.

Thing is, that's the point with that character. She's supposed to be obnoxious. She's a well-drawn character; a character I despise, but a good character nonetheless.

So of course one doesn't need to like a character. They just have to be plausible, to elicit a reaction - positive or negative - and play their part in the story.

 

[Mallefunction]

I dunno, I think that to a certain extent, yes. Take Rorschach from WATCHMEN for example. I know for a fact that I would fucking HATE him if I met him in real life, but he is probably one of my favorite characters ever written. It's not so much the character's attitude, it's the way said attitude is written.

 

[Best of the 3]

I don't think you have to like a character for them to be good. I think if a character is deep and well fleshed out then it is a good character. Like most villains, you aren't meant to like them, but usually their character is well thought out.

Although maybe it is easier to view a character as good if they are likable.

 

[Teh Jammah]

If you want an example of a poorly-written character in ME2, it's Miranda, mostly because she's a bundle of informed attributes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility]: the game (and Miranda herself) keep telling us how superior she is to everybody else, how intelligent she is, and what a great leader she is, but her actions in cutscenes and dialogue don't support any of it, nor is she a particularly powerful squadmate in game (once I had Jack and Samara, I had no reason to bring Miranda along on missions).

From a gameplay perspective, I personally disagree with you. I found Miranda to be a pretty versatile and useful squadmate who could take down mech & shield as well as armour & barrier type enemies, thanks to the unique combo of Overload and Warp. The other two might have more flash, but I personally prefer overall practicality. I pretty much have her superglued to my side as a result.

The difference is Viconias romance was far better written, and she didnt do things like tell you to fuck off all the time and generally annoy you. All in all, it was a haphazard romance with an unlikeable character where he attitude and appearance didnt make me want to "discover her soft, wounded side".

Maybe I'm misremembering, since I haven't played BG2 in a while, but I'm pretty sure Viconia does indeed tell you to fuck off (not literally, but the message is essentially the same) and generally annoy you after you sleep with her the first time. Or am I misremembering her gloating about how superior and Drowish she was, and how she'd lied through her teeth to me about her previous experiences and had been playing me for a fool, etc.

 

[Netgearer22]

I don't hate Jack, I never hated Jack, I liked Jack. She was honest, so she got my respect. She was cold, dark, depressing, and why because she had spent most her life being a lab rat, she had the right to be. She didn't want to be bothered so she went into the basement. That doesn't deserve hate because she is true to herself and tells people how she feels. At least she isn't like Miranda's ***** ass gloating that she is "better" then everyone.