Do you prefer 2d fighting games or 3d fighting games.

[dl_wraith]

It's a good question although a slightly difficult one to really get a feel for. You see, most supposed 3D fighters are really 2D fighters in disguise. There's very few truly 3D fighting games where freedom om movement is evident.

Take Virtua Fighter as the example. We'd all agree that it was an early example of what we now term 3D fighters, right? From this the likes of Fighting Vipers, Tekken, Soul Edge, Battle Arena Toshinden, DoA, Beatorizer (Sorry, Bloody Roar) and so on sprang, yes? Yet it wasn't until VF3 that the sidestep became usable enough to be important - until then you really were aping much of the spacial control of the 2D fighter, traversing along a single plane like fencers.

For me, a proper 3D fighter has to make the left/right movements significant in the combat and so few really do. (Must. Forget. ERGHIEZ) Plus, where do you classify Neo Geo stlye fighters with multiple planes like Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury?

Anyway, I'm sure you get what I'm driving at.

2D and traditionally animated is my preference (SF Alpha 3, Guilty Gear, KOF - stuff like that). I cut my teeth on Street Fighter 2 and although I have a soft spot for Tekken Tag Tournament and Soul Calibur I find that most 3D fighters revolve around blow, counter, MASH BUTTONS I reserve my hatred though for ANY fighter that requires you to hold a button to block, or worse, to use that block button as part of your combos. Guess I'm too used to holding 'away' for blocking - just feels more natural.

 

[dl_wraith]

2d fighting plane but 3d models. Tekken 3 will likely always be my favourite fighter ever, I'm not sure why but even more recent Tekkens have just failed to grab me.

100% agree. After T3/TTT the Tekken franchise became very 'meh'. That said, get TTT2 - it has the distinct feel of earlier Tekkens but with the production values of a modern 3D fighter. Well worth a go.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I'm just no good at fighting games...anyway, Power Stone makes me think 3D fighting games have a lot more they could do when compared to their 2D counterparts. That being said though, there are more 2D fighters that I enjoyed more. Power Stone is the best example I can think of when it comes to 3D fighters but for 2D, there are games like Injustice, Mortal Kombat II and, 9; Guilty Gear...Blazblue looks awesome too...

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

3D all day every day for me.

I mainly play Tekken, but i really like VF as well. Soul Calibur is ok too. Generally i think they offer much deeper and more interesting systems than their 2D counter parts and the gameplay is at a speed that is much more friendly and inviting to reaction based play and counter play. Basically the 3D games shine when it comes to the defensive game and oki, while still having everything that makes a 2D fighter fun and interesting. Granted a game like Tekken Tag 2 is just too large to take in on a decent level. 45+ characters with at least 100 different moves each, all with their own properties. Fun game but way too complex as it is now. I think it was really refreshing when Tekken Revolution dropped with a MUCH smaller roster and a much stronger focus on the fundamentals, rather than the retarded 30-second combos from TTT2.

 

[tonyh900]

Also what do you guys think of 3d free roam fighters like gundam ex, bud budokai tenkaichi, and power stone, and virtual on.

 

[tonyh900]

When I think of 3d fighting games Im thinking of having an x,y and z axis in movement like in tekken where you have left and right and you can also strafe around your opponent. I count free roam 3d games like power stone and dissidia as just that a 3d fighting game where you can move left ,right, forward and back but also let's you travel the Entire map.

 

[garjian]

Spoiler: Mega-super-snips can be done with spoilers? I'm not sure it's a good idea, but it makes sense to me...

Spoiler: snip!

Momentum in 3D fighters is more easily stopped because moves tend to be disadvantageous on block and moves are slow to start up. Often times, blocking an attack in a 3D fighter diffuses an offense, while blocking an attack in a 2D fighter starts the attacker's offense.

That's not true at all! More options for defense allows for attacks to give advantage on block, their weakness being to stepping for example, but the act of doing so opens you up to different forms of attacks, horizontals.

Even in SF4, a 2D fighter with very limited defensive options, has plenty of moves that give the attacker frame advantage. Just because you have more defensive options does not necessarily mean you will have more frame advantage on your moves.

And anyway, because you have many options in 3D fighters, you have more options to escape pressure. I'm not saying it's easy, but in 3D fighters, momentum is more easily stopped.

But besides any of that, have you never heard of Viola... from SCV? The goddess of pressure I tells ya.
Pressure is almost my entire game in Soulcalibur. Across all fighters, I'm much weaker at defending than attacking, and it shows in the characters that I use and way in which I fight (and the games that I play). I'm attacking far, far more often than I'm not, and I'm able to do that very successfully.
I know first hand that momentum is not easy to stop in 3D fighters, certainly not in Soulcalibur, and I barely see it in 2D fighters myself beyond doing a few jabs and wakeup mixups.

I know of Viola and I have seen some Viola play. I do not doubt she is a great offensive character, but as formidable as her offense is, I doubt it's as oppressive as something like this:

5:06 - 6:23

There's definitely more to 2D pressure than a few jabs and okizeme. If you watch with a keen eye you'll see many offensive tactics from Sakura. Before she even lands her first proper hit, she put Rufus in plenty of (I see at least four) frametrap/throw mixup situations.

If you compare this match to 3D fighter match, you'll see a difference in how long momentum can be carried. Blocking is not as strong in 2D fighters as it is in 3D fighters. When you block, you're not really escaping pressure; you're just buying time to find an escape opportunity. You have to do something at some point.

If you want some seriously oppressive offense, here's Melty Blood, a game where pretty much every character is a pressure monster.
19:55 - 23:50

Look at how long Akiha's pressure lasts in the final round. Even after years of blocking, White Len is unable to escape. White Len has had to defend against so many (mainly frametrap/throw and high/low) mixups in that time. There were a few opportunities to escape, but Akiha kept her pressure so varied and unpredictable that White Len was too scared to seize those opportunities. Again, blocking only buys you time; blocking by itself is usually not enough to escape pressure.

1:00 - 3:06

In a 3D fighter, blocking a move/string is usually enough to get you back into the neutral game. Actually, defense in 3D fighters in general is quite strong. And because 3D defense is strong, momentum is stopped more easily, resulting in more "turn" exchanges between you and your opponent. Sorry for using a Tekken example; I'm much more familiar with Tekken than I am with SoulCalibur, but Look at the first match and you'll see what I mean. Offense comes in spurts. When an attack is defended, the attacker's momentum is often dispelled. And because of that, you can't go for mix-up after mix-up after mix-up after a blocked attack like you can in 2D fighters. The attacker loses his turn, and the defender gets some breathing room to make his play.

This almost "turn-based" play is definitely not a bad thing, though. In fact, this almost "turn-based" nature makes 3D fighters really interesting. A well known US Virtua Fighter player, LA Akira, once described VF as something of a turn-based game where you try to steal turns, through options like blocking, side-stepping, ducking and more, from your opponent. As someone who's played plenty of Tekken, and a little bit of SoulCalibur I feel that description fits those two games quite well, and I'm sure DoA is the same way. The 3D experience really is very different from 2D.

You can find specific examples of offence like this in both I'm sure, and Tekken... I mentioned I hate Tekken, and that video shows many reasons why.
I hate the little twitchy movements, there's barely any ability to step an attack. Attacks give you nothing even on hit, unless they allow for juggles afterward... King, early in that match, landed a pretty slow overhead kick and got punched for attempting to move afterwards... It's ridiculous.
I recall watching finals for Tekken 6, can't remember which tournament. Not only was Bob dominating everything, it was just little jabs... just jabs... for the whole match!

I hate Tekken.

Now the Street Fighter example was impressive, and I've seen Sakura do it to a lesser extent before (while this is probably due to the fact that I don't play or follow Street Fighter too often), but it's not something I see often and I've never seen it to this caliber, whereas I see this type of thing all the time in Soulcalibur because it's what I do. That description you gave does not fit the majority of my experience with that game.
I wish I had a video to counter you with, but unfortunately I barely follow any tournaments even for the games I like... though, I don't think such a thing has happened in any finals.

I suppose in the EVO 2013 side tournament finals, the Yoshimitsu demonstrates some basics. Combo into okizeme, usually doing a low kick that doesn't give advantage on hit, expecting a follow up and stepping out of the way, doing a quick punish and backstepping or attacking through their retaliation to that into another combo. It works a few times surprisingly, but he mixes it up a little in later games... that however is pretty much what you described earlier.
Unfortunately, the Viola he's against isn't... great? ...at pressure at least. There are a few examples of what she can do in there, but nothing special.
I don't think it's the best example... and the commentary is disgraceful. Ugh...

 

[Stavros Dimou]

Its 2d of course. This genre of games was born 2d and it works well that way. Not that much in 3d.
The mechanics of 2d fighting game can't be faithfully transferred to a 3d world.
That means that for a 'fighting game' to work on 3d and not be broken,it has to change a lot.And the changes are so many that you could call that a different genre.
I remember playing one of the 3d Mortal Kombats and it was a mess. All that time spent memorizing special moves and combos, when to jump,when to block,turned irrelevant as the enemy would spam the sidestep button infinetly and avoid all attacks.
The matches would end with time ups and if you where not playing with a timer,it would be an endless draw,omg.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

You can find specific examples of offence like this in both I'm sure, and Tekken... I mentioned I hate Tekken, and that video shows many reasons why.
I hate the little twitchy movements, there's barely any ability to step an attack. Attacks give you nothing even on hit, unless they allow for juggles afterward... King, early in that match, landed a pretty slow overhead kick and got punched for attempting to move afterwards... It's ridiculous.
I recall watching finals for Tekken 6, can't remember which tournament. Not only was Bob dominating everything, it was just little jabs... just jabs... for the whole match!

I hate Tekken.

That's just not true at all. If you understand what is going on there is activity constantly in the game shown here.The fact that you even refer to an attack as an "over head" shows how disconnected you are from Tekken. I'd agree though, if you don't understand spacing in Tekken it's just gonna look like they are twitching around when they are doing back dash cancels and wave dashes, and the attempts at finding gaps in the other players defense might look like it's all pokes, but there is so much more going on in that game that you just aren't seeing. Just look at the pressure from Hei and his electrics during the entire game.

But in a sense i can agree, especially in TTT2 where you have to play extremely safe, because if you gamble and fail you'll go in the air and eat a huge juggle (the combo damage in TTT2 is just ridiculous imo). There is plenty of spacing going on, spacing and stepping attacks is a huge part of the strategy for any player. And you say king gets punished after landing a mid? I didn't see it but obviously you have to consider every move, if you try to move or attack when you clearly don't have enough of a frame advantage to do it you will get punished, and that's a good thing.

 

[Nadia Castle]

Depends on the game style. If it's all about careful moves then 3D in the style of Virtua Fighter 3. If it a crazy button masher then 2D like Marvel Vs Capcom. Why yes I do light a candle at the shrine of the Dreamcast every year....

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

I'm on the fence with this one. I love the old Guilty Gear games and the Soul Calibur games. However, I think the commands you enter in 3D fighting games mess up more than in 2D. Something isn't getting processed right sometimes. Soul Calibur IV and V have the worse problems with it from my experience.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

I'm on the fence with this one. I love the old Guilty Gear games and the Soul Calibur games. However, I think the commands you enter in 3D fighting games mess up more than in 2D. Something isn't getting processed right sometimes. Soul Calibur IV and V have the worse problems with it from my experience.

Really? Never ever had any input problems with either SCIV or V. Most likely a problem on your end, not the game

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

I'm on the fence with this one. I love the old Guilty Gear games and the Soul Calibur games. However, I think the commands you enter in 3D fighting games mess up more than in 2D. Something isn't getting processed right sometimes. Soul Calibur IV and V have the worse problems with it from my experience.

Really? Never ever had any input problems with either SCIV or V. Most likely a problem on your end, not the game

You could be right, I have thought of that before.

 

[garjian]

You can find specific examples of offence like this in both I'm sure, and Tekken... I mentioned I hate Tekken, and that video shows many reasons why.
I hate the little twitchy movements, there's barely any ability to step an attack. Attacks give you nothing even on hit, unless they allow for juggles afterward... King, early in that match, landed a pretty slow overhead kick and got punched for attempting to move afterwards... It's ridiculous.
I recall watching finals for Tekken 6, can't remember which tournament. Not only was Bob dominating everything, it was just little jabs... just jabs... for the whole match!

I hate Tekken.

That's just not true at all. If you understand what is going on there is activity constantly in the game shown here.The fact that you even refer to an attack as an "over head" shows how disconnected you are from Tekken. I'd agree though, if you don't understand spacing in Tekken it's just gonna look like they are twitching around when they are doing back dash cancels and wave dashes, and the attempts at finding gaps in the other players defense might look like it's all pokes, but there is so much more going on in that game that you just aren't seeing. Just look at the pressure from Hei and his electrics during the entire game.

But in a sense i can agree, especially in TTT2 where you have to play extremely safe, because if you gamble and fail you'll go in the air and eat a huge juggle (the combo damage in TTT2 is just ridiculous imo). There is plenty of spacing going on, spacing and stepping attacks is a huge part of the strategy for any player. And you say king gets punished after landing a mid? I didn't see it but obviously you have to consider every move, if you try to move or attack when you clearly don't have enough of a frame advantage to do it you will get punished, and that's a good thing.

I didn't say it was an overhead, I described it as such so you knew which attack I was talking about. I'm on the side of 3D fighters here, and I struggle to call Tekken one.
Also I didn't say he was punished, I said he got hit for attempting to move afterwards. He wasn't rewarded for his slow, vertical mid on hit.
Also, regardless of what that twitching accomplishes, it looks terrible and is more difficult that it needs to be to perform. If the characters just moved at that speed fluidly, stepping might actually be an option.

I stand by everything I said, even though it's clearly exaggeratory. Tekken sucks balls.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

Yeah and you are just making my point; if you think that Tekken is barely 3D it's because you don't understand the game. Side stepping/walking is a HUGE part of the game. It's not the games fault if you can't dash cancel properly, spacing and stepping is a perfectly fine option if you can double tap back, and then press down/up to cancel and then repeat with enough speed. It's not that hard.

Tekken is a huge and complex game, and it takes a lot of investment to play it at even a decent level (not saying i'm particularly good at it). The learning curve is ridiculous and i can honestly say that before i actually learned how to play the game, via a friend, i also thought that Tekken sucked. Once i started understanding how a move is set up and thus being able to judge what moves are good/bad and how the general mechanics worked, it switched over from being a string-heavy mash fest with slow movement to one of the most intense fighters ever.

As for the mid kick thing, if you do something you don't have enough frames to do you will get punished that's just how it works. Again i can't really find the moment you are talking about but i don't think there is a single move in the game that isn't safe on hit. If you land something and then get hit it's because you tried to push your advantage and got punished for it.

But hey, to each their own i suppose. If you don't like it that's fine, i just don't think your reasons are really true. Obviously the game has a ton of flaws. TTT2 basically turned me off from tekken in a major way with it's retarded combo length/damage and way too big roster. The balancing is iffy, as with all fighters, and there is clear tiering among the characters. Revolution just fixes a lot of the gripes i have with Tekken at the moment. I just hope they try to reinvent the series a bit for 7.

 

[gamer_parent]

Yeah and you are just making my point; if you think that Tekken is barely 3D it's because you don't understand the game. Side stepping/walking is a HUGE part of the game. It's not the games fault if you can't dash cancel properly, spacing and stepping is a perfectly fine option if you can double tap back, and then press down/up to cancel and then repeat with enough speed. It's not that hard.

Tekken is a huge and complex game, and it takes a lot of investment to play it at even a decent level (not saying i'm particularly good at it). The learning curve is ridiculous and i can honestly say that before i actually learned how to play the game, via a friend, i also thought that Tekken sucked. Once i started understanding how a move is set up and thus being able to judge what moves are good/bad and how the general mechanics worked, it switched over from being a string-heavy mash fest with slow movement to one of the most intense fighters ever.

As for the mid kick thing, if you do something you don't have enough frames to do you will get punished that's just how it works. Again i can't really find the moment you are talking about but i don't think there is a single move in the game that isn't safe on hit. If you land something and then get hit it's because you tried to push your advantage and got punished for it.

But hey, to each their own i suppose. If you don't like it that's fine, i just don't think your reasons are really true. Obviously the game has a ton of flaws. TTT2 basically turned me off from tekken in a major way with it's retarded combo length/damage and way too big roster. The balancing is iffy, as with all fighters, and there is clear tiering among the characters. Revolution just fixes a lot of the gripes i have with Tekken at the moment. I just hope they try to reinvent the series a bit for 7.

to be fair though, tekken as a game is really overdue for a design overhaul. They have SOOO many counter intuitive design traits that really needs to be updated. i.e. back dash canceling, side step cancels, crouch canceling, etc. all of these are subsystems that just creates another input barrier for players and do NOTHING to make the game less dexterity intensive. And then you have things like Kazuya's mist step, which serves no purpose what so ever since everyone has side steps now. Really, a lot of Tekken characters can probably lose 70% of their moves, and the player base would probably not notice it.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

Sure, Kaz doesn't use his mist step. Lee does though. A lot.

Me being a nitpicking douche aside, i kinda agree and disagree with pretty much all of the stuff you are saying. First off, if you removed the cancels and dash cancels, what would you replace them with? How would you have the same amount of flexibility without having, for example, the back dash cancels? If you just have longer, faster back dashes that'd take away some of the flexibility that the really fast back dash canceling brings. It's just because it's so "twitchy" and fast that it allows you to step out of range, then quickly back in for a punish. At the same time i do agree that the less a player has to fight with the controls, rather than the other player, the better. But it's a balance. The advanced techniques offer a lot of depth, and i don't know how to solve it in a simpler way.

As for the moves list...well, yeah. All of the characters have like 20 or so bread and butter moves, that are just super effective but it really is nice to be able to bust out something unexpected at times as well. Played right, even some of those less useful moves can be handy. But hey, i certainly agree that most characters could have their move lists pruned significantly. No question about that. Don't know about your 70% figure though, i think that'd wreck a lot of the characters.

As for switching the game up, i certainly agree. The systems have been virtually unchanged since Tekken 5 now, with the addition of rage and bound in T6, so i agree that it'd be refreshing to see them go in and toss things around.

I think that what Tekken really needs is a serious tutorial. The Bamco people need to hire the Level Up Your Game guys to make an official in-game tutorial that covers everything from the basic controls and frame data to electrics and wave dashing. Maybe even small guides to each character. I know it's pretty much impossible but it would really help players understand the game. Then again, as i write this i kinda realize that most players who are serious enough to learn that kind of stuff most likely already has. The audience for a tutorial like that would probably be rather small.

 

[Soxafloppin]

Well my favourite fighting games are MK2011, Tekken Tag/6 and I really liked the SSB and PS allstars games, so a mixture of both.

 

[gamer_parent]

Sure, Kaz doesn't use his mist step. Lee does though. A lot.

Me being a nitpicking douche aside, i kinda agree and disagree with pretty much all of the stuff you are saying. First off, if you removed the cancels and dash cancels, what would you replace them with? How would you have the same amount of flexibility without having, for example, the back dash cancels? If you just have longer, faster back dashes that'd take away some of the flexibility that the really fast back dash canceling brings. It's just because it's so "twitchy" and fast that it allows you to step out of range, then quickly back in for a punish. At the same time i do agree that the less a player has to fight with the controls, rather than the other player, the better. But it's a balance. The advanced techniques offer a lot of depth, and i don't know how to solve it in a simpler way.

As for the moves list...well, yeah. All of the characters have like 20 or so bread and butter moves, that are just super effective but it really is nice to be able to bust out something unexpected at times as well. Played right, even some of those less useful moves can be handy. But hey, i certainly agree that most characters could have their move lists pruned significantly. No question about that. Don't know about your 70% figure though, i think that'd wreck a lot of the characters.

As for switching the game up, i certainly agree. The systems have been virtually unchanged since Tekken 5 now, with the addition of rage and bound in T6, so i agree that it'd be refreshing to see them go in and toss things around.

I think that what Tekken really needs is a serious tutorial. The Bamco people need to hire the Level Up Your Game guys to make an official in-game tutorial that covers everything from the basic controls and frame data to electrics and wave dashing. Maybe even small guides to each character. I know it's pretty much impossible but it would really help players understand the game. Then again, as i write this i kinda realize that most players who are serious enough to learn that kind of stuff most likely already has. The audience for a tutorial like that would probably be rather small.

well, 70% is just a figure I pulled out of my rear. But I think you get the sentiment.

In terms of the BDC stuff, let's put it this way, the BDC is ALWAYS superior to a normal backdash. The same thing with sidestepping. There is really no reason to use the normal backdash except that it's easier to do, and that alone is really not a compelling argument. That's not depth.

How would you fix it is actually quite simple, give normal backdash BDC properties and remove BDC altogether. You can do that with a lot of the designs to streamline the game.

Also, Lee's mist step is actually useful.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

well, 70% is just a figure I pulled out of my rear. But I think you get the sentiment.

In terms of the BDC stuff, let's put it this way, the BDC is ALWAYS superior to a normal backdash. The same thing with sidestepping. There is really no reason to use the normal backdash except that it's easier to do, and that alone is really not a compelling argument. That's not depth.

How would you fix it is actually quite simple, give normal backdash BDC properties and remove BDC altogether. You can do that with a lot of the designs to streamline the game.

Also, Lee's mist step is actually useful.

Yeah but that's kinda the thing, how do you give a single input the properties of two inputs? The thing with the dash cancel is that you choose when to cancel it. Do you suggest you just have tiny fast back dashes or what? Then you'd have to tap teh backdashes like crazy instead, which at least for me, i think would be even harder. It's easy to say, but how do you mean they should actually implement it?