Do you think Bayonetta is a positive example of a female protagonist?

[Guitarmasterx7]

It depends on how you define "positive." If a "positive" female character to you can be nothing but a modestly dressed dignified woman who turns her nose up at the prospect of anything sexual, then no.

I disagree with the notion that if you don't think a character who spends her entire game acting out every "naughty stripper" cliche ever is an empowered character, then it means for you an empowered character must always be modestly dressed and against sex.

Apparently there is no middle ground: you either like'em as strippers, and if you don't, it means you like them as nuns.

So apparently there's no such thing as a balanced female character who can and will be sexy in the proper situations, without making her sexyness the ONLY thing she has got going for her and something that we need to be reminded for every single instant of her screen time.

I've never played it so I'm not speaking firsthand, but from what people have said about it there's more to her than that. I know a lot of the plot apparently focuses on her relationship with her daughter, and in the one or two cutscenes I've seen, she didn't do anything overtly sexual outside of "being bayonetta" so "every instant of screentime" might be a bit of a hyperbole. I can't say for sure, but I'm not writing off the possibility of it based solely on how she looks. If you've actually played the game you'd probably know better than me. If you haven't, I don't think either of us has ground to stand on in an argument about a game neither of us has played.

 

[maninahat]

Though what's with all the people saying she's intimidating?
I don't get that at all.

They're paraphrasing MovieBob's game overthinker episode on Bayonetta, in which he positively describes Bayonetta as being unique in terms of how she doesn't fit into the "bimbo cutey/ice queen" categories of sexy female character design; Bayonetta wants sex, but there is no way you could plausibly satisfy her.

Personally, I like the idea of a female character who is casual about sex and S&M, without being depicted as a slut or a deviant. Though it is set up as a satire of objectification, Bayonetta has its cheese cake and eats it too. The sexual display is so brash, blatant and central to the character, it feels refreshingly honest. It certainly comes across more wholesome than the tacky BDSM nuns in Hitman: Absolution or Miranda's Ass Effect. Altering the camera angle or changing the outfit wouldn't have changed Miranda's character, but Bayonetta is defined by her sexuality from the ground up.

 

[mecegirl]

The original context was the statement that designing females in a way that is appealing to men is a form of objectification, leading to the conclusion that female design would have to be unattractive to men on purpose in order to not be guilty of objectification.

I, on the other hand, have stated that females are designed to be attractive to men by nature, effectively nulling this objectification nonsense. Natural appeal can be enhanced and reduced in several ways, but at the end of the day, females being attractive to men is required to ensure the survival of the species.

Bottomline: Zira's statement that designing female characters in a way that is appealing to males equals objectification is outright unnatural.

It is a form of objectification though. It isn't inherently negative but it is still objectification. Just like if a male chracter was designed to appeal to women it would still be objectification. You did not null anything. Women are not designed to appeal to men(designed by who exactly btw?), they just happen to appeal to men. They also happen to appeal to women. Just like some men appeal to other men and men appeal to women. There is a difference between a character that happens to be attractive (i.e. most characters in media regardless of gender)and a chracter that was tailor made to appeal to what men from a certain culture are supposed to want. And that tailor made chracter is being objectified. It's okay! You don't have to admit that creating a character like that is sexist, but lets not kid ourselves here.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

So apparently there's no such thing as a balanced female character who can and will be sexy in the proper situations, without making her sexyness the ONLY thing she has got going for her and something that we need to be reminded for every single instant of her screen time.

So I'm guessing you missed the parts where she has character growth as a result of her interactions with her maybe-daughter, former best friend, man who thinks Bayonetta killed his father, memories of her mother, and her own estranged father.

I mean I could see how it would be hard to miss what with all that comprising of only around 2/3rds of the game, but you're totally right. Bayonetta is just about the sex *rollseyes*.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

It is a form of objectification though. It isn't inherently negative but it is still objectification. Just like if a male chracter was designed to appeal to women it would still be objectification. You did not null anything. Women are not designed to appeal to men(designed by who exactly btw?), they just happen to appeal to men. They also happen to appeal to women. Just like some men appeal to other men and men appeal to women. There is a difference between a character that happens to be attractive (i.e. most characters in media regardless of gender)and a chracter that was tailor made to appeal to what men from a certain culture are supposed to want. And that tailor made chracter is being objectified. It's okay! You don't have to admit that creating a character like that is sexist, but lets not kid ourselves here.

I don't think you're aware of what objectification actually means.

From Wiki:

In social philosophy, objectification means treating a person as a thing, without regard to their dignity.

According to the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, a person is objectified if they are treated:[1]

as a tool for another's purposes (instrumentality);
as if lacking in agency or self-determination (denial of autonomy, inertness);
as if owned by another (ownership);
as if interchangeable (fungibility);
as if permissible to damage or destroy (violability);
as if there is no need for concern for their feelings and experiences (denial of subjectivity).

Notice how the character of Bayonetta would fail every part of that definition. She has full agency of her actions. She isn't subservient to any other character. She is very distinct from every other character in the game. The plot has her having actual emotions and ambitions with which it asks the player to sympathize and empathize with.

Her sexual appeal is part of the character not to mention it serves a more practical purpose as the extra long legs help the player know what strong attacks he/her are performing. The lessening to lack of clothing during the hair summons helps colour contrast with the summons themselves (she being fair skinned while the demons are jet black with some purple).

So unless you're redefining objectification to the point of meaningless, no. Bayonetta's design choice and plot role don't make her objectified.

 

[ommadawnyawn]

Maybe not as an irl rolemodel, but for a game, sure.

 

[Weaver]

Other than that I can't think of how she'd be physically intimidating.

She's not physically intimidating, she's sexually intimidating.

Which is exactly what I described in the part of my post that you clipped out.

You described her as sexually aggressive, not sexually intimidating. To me that's very different.
I've dated let's say a sexually aggressive women, and yeah she was a bit rough; but she enjoyed it a lot. Bayonetta... Well, let's put it this way; she's designed to install a lot of doubt about male sexual performance. The way she acts is a lot like "Do you really think you could satisfy me? Please".

Not sure if I explained that well because I'm hammered right now.