Yeah I can see that.Lilani said:
How about a mod that adds Horse Armor (not the official Bethesda Horse Armor) to Oblivion?
Do you think it is piracy to use Cheat Engine on a F2P game to get otherwise paid content?
- Thread starter WeepingAngels
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How about a mod that adds Horse Armor (not the official Bethesda Horse Armor) to Oblivion?
Then you would be downloading a mod, which is not a product Bethesda sells. That would be piracy if the mod used the same code as the official horse armor.WeepingAngels said:
Edit: intellectual piracy on the part of the mod developer, not the downloader.
Seconded. It is on pretty shaky legal grounds that there exist free mods which can be used as close-but-not-quite stand-ins for real paid content, but I feel like it's similar enough to getting generic or knock-offs of other things (so long as they aren't breaking any patents).Mezahmay said:
This leads me back to what I said in the OP: If a developer writes code to add gems and then sells it and I illegally download that code then that is piracy but using Cheat Engine to manually modify a RAM value is not using the devs code.Mezahmay said:
I recall something that happened with Dead Space 3 and the whole resource room thing. I can't be bothered to dig up the article, but I remember how it worked. You would enter this room over and over again and be able to pick up the same resource pack again and again. The resource was meant to be obtainable in game, but you could spend more money and get the resource quicker. I then recall that a lawyer said that EA could sue the people that did that for "digital theft" or something like that. I didn't follow the article after that, so I don't know if it was proven false or what. I may try and dig it up later.
Either way, I would say yes. Those items are suppose to be obtained with money and you are working around that. Doesn't matter if it's singleplayer or not.
Either way, I would say yes. Those items are suppose to be obtained with money and you are working around that. Doesn't matter if it's singleplayer or not.
We have to consider the characteristics of a free-to-play game rather than a full price AAA game here. The idea behind F2P is that the download is free but if you want to access all the content in the game you'll need to pay micro transactions.
If you're using cheats to gain access to permanent items, paid only levels, modes, upgrades etc., then that is definitely piracy. This is equivalent to pirating the DLC for Skyrim of Fallout New Vegas.
If you're using cheats to gain access to consumable resources such as gems or boosts then according the law this is still piracy, you gaining access to a resource or a power-up that you have to pay for without paying for it. However my ethical perspective on it is a bit more grey, I believe that people shouldn't pay for something digital that is instantly consumed, it just feel wrong and a waste of money, so my personal ethics say its okay to use cheats for consumable resources.
If you're using cheats to gain access to permanent items, paid only levels, modes, upgrades etc., then that is definitely piracy. This is equivalent to pirating the DLC for Skyrim of Fallout New Vegas.
If you're using cheats to gain access to consumable resources such as gems or boosts then according the law this is still piracy, you gaining access to a resource or a power-up that you have to pay for without paying for it. However my ethical perspective on it is a bit more grey, I believe that people shouldn't pay for something digital that is instantly consumed, it just feel wrong and a waste of money, so my personal ethics say its okay to use cheats for consumable resources.
And if you read my first post, then you'd know that isn't how it works. Piracy is not just stealing a thing. Devs generally only make promotional codes for F2P games that actually give in-game currency, probably to prevent scenerios like what you're describing right now of someone illegally obtaining codes or just using a random code generator to invalidate legally obtained codes. I fail to see how a knock-off mod is similar to someone going around and manually counterfeiting premium currency by modifying a RAM value.WeepingAngels said:
I'd compare this to that fiasco regarding Javik being included on Mass Effect 3 disc despite being 'Downloadable' content, and how people figured out how to bring him into the game with a simple file edit.
If I'm running something on my own computer, then I have every right to say...
If I'm running something on my own computer, then I have every right to say...
If the content is literally on your computer, included in the game they give out for free, then the content in the game may as well be free too.
You fail to see how the same result can be achieved without buying the official DLC?Mezahmay said:
Let me give another example. Final Fantasy XIII was a bad PC port so someone wrote a mod to allow for higher resolutions. Now say that Square Enix decided to release paid DLC that included higher resolutions. Would that unofficial free mod now be considered piracy?
Don't like this example, there are a million more just like the Horse Armor Oblivion example. Why pay Bethesda for horse armor when there is a free mod that does the same thing?
The end results are not the same. A mod the closely emulates a paid DLC item is technically not piracy because it isn't actually theft. It's effectively an add-on like additional quest mods in Skyrim. Are those piracy since Bethesda also sells DLC with quests? No it isn't. There are also several horse armor mods for Skyrim that are still available for download on Nexusmods. There is no confirmed loss of sale from a mod, especially if the game does not initially include said feature. I don't think the Square Enix example works either since no company, not even Square Enix, would have the gall to charge for a change in resolution and expect players to actually pay for it. That would ruin their reputation and probably end up in future lost sales from their poor reputation and disrespect for their consumer base.WeepingAngels said:
Artificially generating currency is absolutely a confirmed loss of sales for a developer. Even if the currency can be slowly generated in game without actually paying money, you are intended to spend time as the currency since you are not willing to substitute time for cash. This is a perfectly acceptable currency for most developers and is not even remotely illegal whereas Cheat Engine is not an acceptable form of currency generation.
Me not buying any Gems (whether I use Cheat Engine or not) could be considered a loss for the dev and is completely irrelevant. After all, there is no guarantee that everyone who downloads a game will buy DLC.Mezahmay said:
If I am not mistaken, the reason the Game Genie is ok is because it does not alter the code in ROM, only the values in RAM. Using cheat engine does just that without altering the main game files. Is the dev selling his own method for applying the same cheat? Does that alter the game files or does it just alter the values in RAM?
If Nintendo decided to sell a cheat code cart for Super Mario World, would use of the Game Genie suddenly become piracy?
Exactly. Confirmed loss of sale is absolutely relevant to a discussion about piracy. If piracy didn't lead to loss of sales revenue, measures to prevent it from occurring wouldn't be enforced as strictly. You not buying premium currency in a F2P game is known in business as acceptable loss, or the cost incurred when doing business. In this case it is an economic loss since your player did not pay out $X.XX for premium currency instead of paying into the system. Economic loss is not really considered in situations like this since you can't confirm you were going to have a sale at all, so it's considered acceptable loss to attract the players who do pay the developers money for currency instead of time if time played is an applicable currency exchange for premium currency.WeepingAngels said:
Altering the game files is what is irrelevant when discussing this situation. The game's code is also irrelevant. Once you have the game downloaded, the product being sold is now premium currency. By generating premium currency that is usable by you the player to play their game without paying the developers your money or playing for an adequate amount of time to acquire said currency, you are now a counterfeiter. Which is theft. It is against their EULA, terms of service, whatever, and is a confirmed loss of sale. That is effectively piracy.
If you want me to say this is piracy in the sense it's intellectual copyright infringement, then of course it isn't since the game code isn't being altered and you aren't redistributing it. If that was the core of the discussion, you did an inadequate job communicating that point in your topic post and title and the conversation you've been participating in moved on to something else after the very first response post.
I wouldn't call this piracy but that doesn't make it right.
In fact, I'd view this as something WORSE than piracy. You're actively searching out cheats in a game that is FREE to PLAY and has zero barriers to entry. People can sometimes try and morally justify piracy...this doesn't seem justifiable. If you don't like the game being presented then you stop playing and move on.
I'd be more inclined to call this theft.
It's hard to define because there amount of the product being sold is limitless. The best example I can think of (which could be inaccurate) would be buying shares. If I already own shares but don't want to buy more I could theoretically hack whatever equipment tracks this and circumvent the cost of buying more. I'm sure someone could think of a way better real life example but that's all I've got.
In Summary: It's not piracy, it's even worse.
In fact, I'd view this as something WORSE than piracy. You're actively searching out cheats in a game that is FREE to PLAY and has zero barriers to entry. People can sometimes try and morally justify piracy...this doesn't seem justifiable. If you don't like the game being presented then you stop playing and move on.
I'd be more inclined to call this theft.
It's hard to define because there amount of the product being sold is limitless. The best example I can think of (which could be inaccurate) would be buying shares. If I already own shares but don't want to buy more I could theoretically hack whatever equipment tracks this and circumvent the cost of buying more. I'm sure someone could think of a way better real life example but that's all I've got.
In Summary: It's not piracy, it's even worse.
Here's an interesting post about it by toddhunter from NeoGaf.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138453388&postcount=130
I would welcome your thoughts on it. I obviously agree with this poster.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138453388&postcount=130
I would welcome your thoughts on it. I obviously agree with this poster.
Clearly, and to your credit the conversation stayed that way until post #8 turned it into an analogy of product theft instead of copyright infringement that took over the discussion. I suggest more clearly steering conversations in the future. In this case it should have been steered back into copyright ownership instead of about product comparisons and sales.WeepingAngels said:
Mobile games come to mind. My favorite one, Jetpack Joyride, is free to download, has premium currency that can also be earned in-game through play, and is ostensibly single player since it can be played offline and there's no cooperative elements. It also has the benefit of being in a relatively closed system compared to PC, making modifications more difficult.Batou667 said:
i agree with you mezahmay, well for me it is not a piracy because the meaning of piracy is Copyright or patent infringement. so how come these cheat engines. i don't think these cheats are like that. cause cheats are techniques that exploits a flaw or hidden feature in a video game or computer programMezahmay said:
No cheating isn't piracy. And if devs locked content that came with the game and ask yet more money for it then they are the ones cheating you.