Doctor Who Series 6.6: 'The Almost People' SPOILERS

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Plinglebob

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Nov 11, 2008
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Wes1180 said:
Squid94 said:
Cpt Corallis said:
But when was Amy switched! So much confusion!
My biggest question too. I want to know when, how, why, and where dammit!!
I have a feeling that it could be before the very first ep of this series, to account for the 9 months possibly.
mikozero said:
Squid94 said:
Cpt Corallis said:
But when was Amy switched! So much confusion!
My biggest question too. I want to know when, how, why, and where dammit!!
Amy was swapped in at some point just prior to entering forest contained within the starship Byzantium (probably by River Song) in the episode "Flesh And Stone" hence the two differently dressed doctors in that episode and the line "the only water in the forest is the river" spoken by the Tardis in "The Doctor?s Wife" refering to River Song. Amy Pond was there also but by that time she wasn't actually Amy Pond.

now anyone wanna nominate me for a badge if i'm right or possibly a jammie dodger?
I think they'll have it so she was taken inbetween episodes 1 & 2 when she was running around America looking for the Silence and there are 2 reasons for this.

The first is as far as we know Amy has always been with either the Doctor or with Rory. The only times this hasn't been the case is when she was in the Forest (but then either soldiers or the Doctor were keeping an eye on River and we always saw what was happening to Amy) and when she was running around America looking for the Silence. The second is that at the end of episode 1 of series 2 Amy told the Doctor she's pregnant but in episode 2 she says she isn't. In between we have 3 months where she's on her own and constantly having her memory screwed with by the Silence so would be easy enough for someone to slip in.

Thyunda said:
Will you guys stop saying that the shoe-swapping was obvious? You're making me feel slow. I didn't see it coming. >_<
Don't worry, I didn't either.

Re: Next week. 2 of the nicest and calmest people in TV at the moment get pissed. I CAN'T WAIT!!!
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
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Generic Gamer said:
Disaster Button said:
The more I think about the end of the episode, the less I understand it.

The Doctor spent the whole time explaining (mainly to Amy) that Gangers are no less people than humans are, then he went and dissolved her a reason that wasn't explained (yet). Doing all of that and then just to treat her like the other humans treated their Gangers just seems cruel.
You know...the more things the Doctor does this series the more I'm starting to sympathise with the coalition for locking him away.

The Doctor would appear to be a horrible person from what I can tell, he's basically killed his way indiscriminately through...I'll go with 5 episodes now because episode 4 seemed very reasonable.

As per usual I think I'm going to get quoted a billion times with people telling me that some time in the seventies he totally did that one thing but the Doctor is not an internally consistent character! He has no chain of reasoning that can be followed and frequently contradicts himself over what's morally acceptable.
You're basic beef is that the Doctor is murdering everything in his way with little or no morality compared to previous regenerations, yes?
Discounting pre-new series, which I myself have little experience in, let's start at 2005. I'll add one morality point if he tries to reason with an enemy, minus 1 if he doesn't and kills/deals with them. No points if the enemy isn't really an enemy (see; The Empty Child)

Series 1:

Rose: Tries to bargain with the Nestine Conciousness. Nestine dies. [1 morality point]
End of the World: No options, stands there and watches Casandra die in front of him and Rose [-2 morality points for being a douche]
The Unquiet Dead: No options. Geth die [-1]
Aliens of London/World War 3: No options. Launches a missle at Downing Street to solve problem [-1]
Dalek: No option. Tries to kill the Dalek from the moment he knows about it. [-1]
The Long Game: No options. [-1]
Father's Day: No score, Reapers are by product of the death of the Time Lords. Unavoidable [0]
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances: No option, not really an enemy. By product of medical ship. Saves Jack from death [1]
Boom Town: Prepared to take Margaret Blaine to her death [-1]
Bad Wolf: Prepared to kill all Daleks out of spite, No options given [-1]
The Parting of the Ways: Doesn't kill Daleks, no options given [1 point for being nice]

Eccleston scores: -5 Morality Points

Series 2:

The Christmas Invasion: Gives the Sycorax a chance to leave. [1]
New Earth: Plauge Zombies not really an enemy. Cat people no threat. [0]
Tooth and Claw: Is prepared to kill the Warewolf without options. However, only kills it after it asks to die. No score [0]
School Reunion: Gives options. [1]
The Girl on the Fireplace: Doesnt give clockwork robots a chance. Not a real enemy to start with. Only doing their job. [0]
Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel: Only keeps Lumic talking so Micky can find the code to give the Cybermen back all their emotions. Subjecting thousands to personal agony of being trapped inside metal suits. Most die. [-2 for being a douche to half the world]
The Idiot's Lantern: Gives chance to leave [1]
The Impossible Planet/ Satan Pit: No options given to the devil. Didn't save the Ood. [-2, minus one per enemy he killed]
Love and Monsters: No options. [-1]
Fear Her: Gives options [1]
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday: No options given. Sucks all enemies into the void between dimensions [-2, minus one for Daleks, minus one for Cybermen]

Tennant scores in series 2: -3 Morality Points

Series 3:

The Runaway Bride: Commits genocide [-2 for being a douche]
Smith and Jones: Causes death of the Plasmavore without giving her a chance. [-1]
The Shakespeare Code: Doesn't actually kill them, but gives no options. No score [0]
Gridlock: Doesn't kill Macra. No other enemies. No score [0]
Daleks In Manhatten/Evolution of the Daleks: Daleks kill each other, tries to help human-Dalek. [2 points for being nice to the Daleks]
The Lazarus Experiment: Tries to reason with Lazarus [1]
42: Doesn't kill enemy. No options given. No score
Human Nature: Tries to save the family by running from them. [1]
The Family of Blood: Tortures each family member. I would really like to give minus 4 here, -1 for each family member but: [-2 for being a torturing douche]
Blink: No options given to the Angels, succeeds in trapping the Angels forever. [-1]
Utopia: Tries to reason with the Master out of lack of options. [1]
The Sound of Drums: Attempts to stop the Master and reason with him [1]
Last of the Time Lords: Tries to reason with the Master [1], makes no attempt to save the Toclofane [-1], tries to keep the Master as pet in his TARDIS [-1]

Tennant scores in series 3: -1 Morality Points

Series 4:

Voyage of the Dammed: Saves everyone who was saveable. Gives no options to Max, Astrid kills him though. [1]
Partners on Crime: The Adipose are saved. Nothing could be done about the people killed by the fat or Mrs Foster. [1]
The Fires of Pompeii: Kills thousands, however, fixed point in history that wasn't his fault. No score. [0] However, he gets a minus for not giving the Pyrovilles a chance [-1]
Planet of the Ood: Can't do anything about the Ood until too late. Can't stop Ood Sigma turning his boss into an Ood. No score [0]
The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky: Gives Stall a chance to leave (although I can't think why), is willing to sacrifice himself for it. [2]
The Doctor's Daughter: Doesn't kill in revenge. [2]
The Unicorn and the Wasp: No real enemy to give options to. No score [0]
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead: Reasons with the Vasda Narada [1]
Midnight: No real enemy to bargain with. No score [0]
Turn Left: Doctor plays no part in the episode. No score [0]
The Stolen Earth/Journey's End: Dupe Doctor commits genocide. No score. Tries to save Davros [1]

Tennant's series 4 score: 6 Morality Points!

Specials:

The Next Doctor: Attempts to reason with the Cybermen [1]
Planet of the Dead: Promises to make sure the swarm are directed to other planet. [1]
Waters of Mars: Goes a bit mental. Gives no options to the Flood. [-1]
The End of Time: All prepared to kill the a Time Lords and/or the Master. However, does neither. [1]

Tennant's Specials score: 2 Morality Points.

Tennant's final Score: 4 points. If it wasn't for series 4, he'd be on minus figures.

Series 5:

The Eleventh Hour: Attempts to reason with Prisoner Zero. [1]
The Beast Below: Tries to do what's best. Despite that being vegetating a living creature to save humans. No score for being morally grey. [0]
Victory of the Daleks: No attempts to reason. All prepared to kill the Daleks until they reveal Gracewell. [-1]
Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone: No options given to the Angels. [-1]
The Vampires of Venice: Attempts to reason. [1]
Amy's Choice: Not a real enemy. No win situation. No score. [0]
The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood: Attempts peace. [1]
Vincent and the Doctor: Can't communicate with alien to reason. Death of the alien out of the Doctor's control. No score. [0]
The Lodger: No enemy to reason with. No score. [0]
The Pandorica Opens: Tries to reason with the Alliance out of desperation. No score. [0]
The Big Bang: Death of the Dalek not by the Doctor's hands. No score. [0]

Smith's series 5 score: 1 point!

Series 6 (so far):

Christmas Carol: Reasons with Sardic. [1]
The Impossible Astronaut: No enemies revealed. Attempts in vain to stop Amy shooting the astronaut. [1]
Day of the Moon: Uses the Silence's own powers of suggestion to turn the human race against them. Not genocide as the Silence have the spaceships necessary to escape Earth. [-1]
The Curse of the Black Spot: Nobody dies but the Doctor gives murderous pirates a spaceship. [-1 for being short sighted]
The Doctor's Wife: Doesn't reason with House, however, justified because he toyed with Amy and Rory and tried to kill his TARDIS by forcing her into a human mind. [-1 technically, but I think what he did was a-ok]
The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People: Attempt peace. [1] Kills ganger Amy for no reason. [-1]
...

Smith's score for series 6 so far: -2

The point of all that was that even taking out of the picture the old Doctor's, the new series Doctor was very morally grey/a douche even before Smith and Moffat came along.

Edit: Apart from the order of the episodes that I had to look up, that's all from memory but I'm confident that it's accurate.
 

I Like Turtles

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May 29, 2011
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OMG what an episode, im bit confused, when did they swap the flesh Amy for the real Amy and how ? As i didn't see the time when they could do this if the whole time she was with Rory and the Doctor :L ...
 

SomethingUnrelated

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Wes1180 said:
Squid94 said:
Cpt Corallis said:
But when was Amy switched! So much confusion!
My biggest question too. I want to know when, how, why, and where dammit!!
I have a feeling that it could be before the very first ep of this series, to account for the 9 months possibly.
Yeah, I'm aware that that is the case (they confirmed it on confidential) but when did a flesh copy of her get made, and when did it replace her, and how did that happen without anyone realising? That's what I don't get...
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
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Aug 15, 2008
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Squid94 said:
Wes1180 said:
Squid94 said:
Cpt Corallis said:
But when was Amy switched! So much confusion!
My biggest question too. I want to know when, how, why, and where dammit!!
I have a feeling that it could be before the very first ep of this series, to account for the 9 months possibly.
Yeah, I'm aware that that is the case (they confirmed it on confidential) but when did a flesh copy of her get made, and when did it replace her, and how did that happen without anyone realising? That's what I don't get...
This is what I think so far.

Ep1: Amy tells the Doctor she's pregnant.
Ep2: Amy is kidnapped by the Silence for "many days", afterwards, Amy tells the Doctor she isn't pregnant (assuming that's a Silence suggestion to throw off the Doctor.)
Ep3-5 The Doctor tries to scan ganger Amy to see if she is pregnant. She is because the real her is. She isn't because her ganger isn't.

At some point, before ep5, the Doctor realises what's going on but needs to confirm it by going to the Flesh to block the signal with the other gangers. (Somehow :/)

Oh, and ganger Amy starts seeing the eyepatch lady because the real Amy can.
 

varulfic

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Jul 12, 2008
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I didn't like this two parter at all. It was predictable and annoying as all hell. I liked the two doctors, that was funny, and giving Rory some time in the spotlight was about freakin time... but the stupidity of the supporting characters, and the constantly forced conflict that could have been easily solved had not that ***** scientist been such a *****, just makes me furious. I hate characters like that.

The twist ending was awesome, though.
 

Daffy F

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Apr 17, 2009
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Cpt Corallis said:
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! SO MUCH PLOT! Really really looking forward to nest week now!
But when was Amy switched! So much confusion!
Also, The CGI was of varying quality this time, The two Doctors at once was fair enough, as was the flesh monster but the eyes in the wall looked weird...
I'm pretty sure she was switched when she was captured by the weird alien thingys in episode 2... I always thought it was a bit odd that they just sort of left her around, and now I know why.
On a sepeate note, why was it that travelling in the TARDIS made the other two gangers fully human, but not Amy? I guess probably because her real self was still alive, unlike with the other two... Still. We shall see.
 

Daffy F

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joemegson94 said:
Was it just me or did EPL look like she kept getting older?

Anyway, great episode with a shit-freaky ending. Only big flaw is, I know he's about 5, but that child actor made me want to strangle myself with my own throat. Terrible acting.
I agree with that. Like, awfully hard to watch. Also, I wonder why he wasn't irish like his dad?
 

Dumbfish1

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Oct 17, 2008
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Trolldor said:
Dumbfish1 said:
Trolldor said:
Scorched_Cascade said:
Generic Gamer said:
Disaster Button said:
The more I think about the end of the episode, the less I understand it.

The Doctor spent the whole time explaining (mainly to Amy) that Gangers are no less people than humans are, then he went and dissolved her a reason that wasn't explained (yet). Doing all of that and then just to treat her like the other humans treated their Gangers just seems cruel.
You know...the more things the Doctor does this series the more I'm starting to sympathise with the coalition for locking him away.

The Doctor would appear to be a horrible person from what I can tell, he's basically killed his way indiscriminately through...I'll go with 5 episodes now because episode 4 seemed very reasonable.
You might be on to something there. Maybe the Pandorica affected him? Maybe he's a little more unhinged then he previously was. Check how angry he gets during "The Doctor's wife" at two characters who pretty much haven't done anything but be there while someone else does something "bad" (auntie/uncle).

This is the first time we've seen him since Pandorica right?

Whatever doesn't kill you makes you....stranger
To be fair to him, he honestly believed there were other good timelords left alive.
Opening that cupboard was the shattering of all that hope.
I thought the point was that the Gangers he was protecting were made sentient by the solar storm. The ganger that was Amy Pond was being controlled by the real Amy Pond (Which is why she subconciously kept seeing the woman opening the hatch).

..what is this in response to?

My comment was about "The Doctor's Wife"
Oops my bad, I didn't see your comment. Sorry about that.
 

SomethingUnrelated

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TimeLord said:
Squid94 said:
Wes1180 said:
I have a feeling that it could be before the very first ep of this series, to account for the 9 months possibly.
Yeah, I'm aware that that is the case (they confirmed it on confidential) but when did a flesh copy of her get made, and when did it replace her, and how did that happen without anyone realising? That's what I don't get...
This is what I think so far.

Ep1: Amy tells the Doctor she's pregnant.
Ep2: Amy is kidnapped by the Silence for "many days", afterwards, Amy tells the Doctor she isn't pregnant (assuming that's a Silence suggestion to throw off the Doctor.)
Ep3-5 The Doctor tries to scan ganger Amy to see if she is pregnant. She is because the real her is. She isn't because her ganger isn't.

At some point, before ep5, the Doctor realises what's going on but needs to confirm it by going to the Flesh to block the signal with the other gangers. (Somehow :/)

Oh, and ganger Amy starts seeing the eyepatch lady because the real Amy can.
Well, it fits as far as I know, and it seems pretty plausible. My favourite explanation so far. Still, I suppose we'll find out if it's true soon enough.

Would the little girl at the end of Episode 2 be her daughter then, perhaps?

And how are the Silence linked to the Gangers?
 

Trivun

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Dec 13, 2008
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TimeLord said:
Interesting episode, I wish there was more time between the 2 Doctor's as I think that was a missed oppertunity. I was hoping that the ganger Doctor was the 1103 Doctor that died in episode 1.

Although the ending was pretty awesome. Amy was a ganger and she's having a baby! I liked the shoe swapping and it proved that the flesh were human in the end.

"Am I crazy? Well you did plug your mind into the core of a planet to keep it in orbit and win a bet!"
"Reverse the jelly baby of the neutron flow."

Next weeks episode is called "A Good Man Goes to War" and will probably the first of a two parted that spans months!

A Good Man Goes to War trailer:


Also, after re-watching the end of 'The Almost People', it seems the TARDIS couldn't scan for Amy's pregnancy because she was a ganger. But more importantly, our Doctor knows about his own death as he said "This one we're not invited to" to the other Doctor.
Regarding the Doctor knowing about his own death, if you notice Amy actually mentions it, or comes close to it, when she speaks with the Doctor she thinks is the Ganger version, so without realising it she's given him the 'spoilers' - River won't be too pleased in the next episode when she finds out... ;). But though she didn't explicitly reveal it, the Doctor is smart, remember. He probably figured it out from what she was saying, even though he doesn't know the full story.

Anyway, I loved this episode, and I am incredibly psyched for the next one. I am actually feeling now that this is the better season with Matt Smith, and he shaped up quickly to surpass even David Tennant in my eyes, so I pretty much reckon this is the best season of the revived series so far. Honestly, I really mean that. Looking forward to next week, though it's a shame it'll be a mid-season cliffhanger it'll just mean I'm even more excited for the return when it comes back in September. Roll on next Saturday!
 

Encryption

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I haven't had time to read the entire thread but I have a couple of points that are oblique references.

1. Many people have thought Abigail's Song in the Christmas Carol episode was foreshadowing to what was to come. Apparently it is with reference to "_silence_ is all you'll need" and so just as curious could "let in the light of your bright shadow" also be a reference to something yet to come?

2. I did not see anyone mention this but the Doctor's ganger (unknown to Amy's ganger <-- we did not know at the time!!! ) distinctly told her to, "Push Amy, only when she tells you to". I found this odd when I first heard it but by the end of the episode it is a revelation. I'm not going to spell it out as I'm sure that many of you reading this may well be realizing something right now. How could the Doctor's ganger known this? Of course he has the memory of the Doctor! And that only begs another question doesn't it.

3. The Doctor's ganger does go on to say, "My death arrives I suppose." and the Doctor responds, "But this one we're not invited to." A reference to the blue invitations and clearly the Doctor reveals he already knows he is going to die. The Doctor adds that his gangers molecular memory can possibly survive this. "It may not be... the end" the Doctor says and tosses the ganger his sonic screwdriver. The Doctor's ganger quips that he'll know he's back when he's licked his biscuits (hysterical on so many levels)

4. Also of interest is the Doctor had to find out if Amy's ganger would react to Doctor's ganger as she would him with no bias. Keep in mind, the Doctor knows Amy is the ganger. Hmmm... if you get the reference in #2 as to what that possibly mean you may now understand why the Doctor had to know this. And of course that Amy's mind is controlling her ganger.

5. The Doctor in the TARDIS reveals he knows Amy is a ganger and she is "linked" to herself (somwhere else for "a very long time" - how long we don't know) and he reveals why he's visited the Flesh. Which was to find out how to block the signal. I have to believe the Doctor truly needed find his morale compass as to when, how, why a ganger is truly "human" or sentient on it's own. This may be a real leap on my part to guess this was the underlying reason.

Someone mentioned in a previous post the discerning factor of just a ganger and one that is sentient is the difference from when a person is in the harness animating the Flesh as opposed to when it's acting on it's own. This I agree with.
 

Encryption

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Also, after re-watching the end of 'The Almost People', it seems the TARDIS couldn't scan for Amy's pregnancy because she was a ganger. But more importantly, our Doctor knows about his own death as he said "This one we're not invited to" to the other Doctor.
Actually the TARDIS was showing what appeared to be a conflicting report the she was both pregnant and not pregnant. We can surmise now this was likely caused by Amy ganger not being pregnant but also the TARDIS detecting the link to Amy and reporting her also pregnant.
 

ZeoAssassin

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finally saw it online...goddamn BBCA with its arbitrary BS of deciding to not air the damn episode until THIS week ugh. was good indeed, i suppose this means that Amy was kidnapped and thrown into a ganger between the X-mas episode and The Impossible Astronaut, given that the first time Amy sees the eye-patch lady just before getting captured by the Silence.

so after seeing the good man goes to war trailer i couple things come to mind...

1. AHHHH YEAHHH Rorys going Roman-Rambo on these bastards. Time to fight Cyberman like a boss!

2. OOOOOH NOOOO this means that Rory is more likely than not the "good man" which means hes going to die...again.

3. goddammit Moffat stop killing RORY goddammit.

that is all