Doctor Who Series 7, Ep 2: Dinosaurs on a Spaceship (SPOILERS)

[Geo Da Sponge]

I thought it was a pretty good episode, yeah. Like other have said, it was certainly better than the first one.

Shnip

Shnip

I know he's killed before, it's not like I've somehow managed to only watch the episodes where he doesn't, but it used to be a last resort, and he always gave them a chance, but now he practically seems to enjoy killing people/aliens.

I was going to say, in this episode it wasn't even a case of killing Solomon because it was easier than using a non-lethal method of disposing of him. He just outright executed him when it would've been very easy to get him locked up instead.

 

[TimeLord]

I want to know what happened to a man who never would.

He died with 10? The Doctor has always exacted judgement against those who wronged him. Tennant put the Family Of Blood in states of perpetual torture for what they did. Eccleston let Cassandra die in response to her attempting to destroying the station they were on.

With Eccleston, it was justified (from a story perspective) because this was the immediately post-Time War Doctor. At the end of Journey's End he said that he was incredibly angry back then (I can't remember the exact wording). And the Family of Blood was very specifically not killed. If it was a one off with Eleven it would be acceptable as a moment when he was angry enough to let his morals slip, but this has been a recurring theme with him.

And thus that's his character. Would you rather he was a carbon copy of Tennant?

No, but I'd rather there was a sense that he was the same person, not just another man calling himself the Doctor.

"I can still die. If I'm killed before regeneration, then I'm dead. Even then. Even if I change, it feels like dying. Everything I am dies. Some new man goes sauntering away. And I'm dead."
-10th Doctor

Smith's Doctor is a new man compared to Tennant's. He's show and said in series 6; "Oh and this is my friend River. Nice hair, clever, has her own gun. And unlike me she really doesn't mind shooting people. I shouldn't like that, kind of do a bit"
He is clearly more open to violence but it still has to be the absolute final option. There was no other way to save the Silurian ship and Soloman caused genocide against the crew of the ship plus killed the dinosaur despite the fact that it was not a threat. So the Doctor had no qualms in using Soloman to save the ship and themselves.

Yeah, I get all that, but it's not like Eleven doesn't remember what he did as Ten, or what caused him to become so anti-violence. I'd have thought an event like committing genocide against his own people would have enough of an impact to transcend the changes that come with regeneration.

The Doctor has never been truely anti-violence, either in classic or new-Who. Davros tells the Doctor that for a purported pacifist, he is very good at getting people to die for him. More specifically, Davros claims, ?You take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons.? Jack, Martha and Rose all threaten the Dalek Cruible to save the Doctor because as Martha said "There's one more thing the Doctor would do".

Not only weapons, but the Doctor has also had many companions and people around him die for him, to the extent of ending a threat with the death of anyone but himself.


"The man who keeps running. Never looking back because he dare not, out of shame.
This is my final victory Doctor. I have shown you yourself."

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Shnip

Shnip

I know he's killed before, it's not like I've somehow managed to only watch the episodes where he doesn't, but it used to be a last resort, and he always gave them a chance, but now he practically seems to enjoy killing people/aliens.

He didn't seem to be enjoying it, did he crack a smile or make a joke? No. He just seemed less merciful, which I think is fine. That guy did commit genocide against an entire innocent race for simple profit, and killed an innocent creature right infront of the doctor. I don't think anyone would try to keep that guy alive, and the new doctor definitely wouldn't.

 

[DJjaffacake]

I want to know what happened to a man who never would.

He died with 10? The Doctor has always exacted judgement against those who wronged him. Tennant put the Family Of Blood in states of perpetual torture for what they did. Eccleston let Cassandra die in response to her attempting to destroying the station they were on.

With Eccleston, it was justified (from a story perspective) because this was the immediately post-Time War Doctor. At the end of Journey's End he said that he was incredibly angry back then (I can't remember the exact wording). And the Family of Blood was very specifically not killed. If it was a one off with Eleven it would be acceptable as a moment when he was angry enough to let his morals slip, but this has been a recurring theme with him.

And thus that's his character. Would you rather he was a carbon copy of Tennant?

No, but I'd rather there was a sense that he was the same person, not just another man calling himself the Doctor.

"I can still die. If I'm killed before regeneration, then I'm dead. Even then. Even if I change, it feels like dying. Everything I am dies. Some new man goes sauntering away. And I'm dead."
-10th Doctor

Smith's Doctor is a new man compared to Tennant's. He's show and said in series 6; "Oh and this is my friend River. Nice hair, clever, has her own gun. And unlike me she really doesn't mind shooting people. I shouldn't like that, kind of do a bit"
He is clearly more open to violence but it still has to be the absolute final option. There was no other way to save the Silurian ship and Soloman caused genocide against the crew of the ship plus killed the dinosaur despite the fact that it was not a threat. So the Doctor had no qualms in using Soloman to save the ship and themselves.

Yeah, I get all that, but it's not like Eleven doesn't remember what he did as Ten, or what caused him to become so anti-violence. I'd have thought an event like committing genocide against his own people would have enough of an impact to transcend the changes that come with regeneration.

The Doctor has never been truely anti-violence, either in classic or new-Who. Davros tells the Doctor that for a purported pacifist, he is very good at getting people to die for him. More specifically, Davros claims, ?You take ordinary people and you fashion them into weapons.? Jack, Martha and Rose all threaten the Dalek Cruible to save the Doctor because as Martha said "There's one more thing the Doctor would do".

Not only weapons, but the Doctor has also had many companions and people around him die for him, to the extent of ending a threat with the death of anyone but himself.

clip snip

"The man who keeps running. Never looking back because he dare not, out of shame.
This is my final victory Doctor. I have shown you yourself."

I'm aware he's not really a pacifist, that's why I went with anti-violence instead, meaning that he abhors its use unless he has no other option. As far as the companions dying for him, judging by his reaction to that bit, he didn't realise he had that effect, and he stops travelling with companions after that. Eleven, conversely, I can see being quite proud in that situation. Like I said, it's not the fact that he's changed, it's the fact that he's changed so much.

Shnip

Shnip

I know he's killed before, it's not like I've somehow managed to only watch the episodes where he doesn't, but it used to be a last resort, and he always gave them a chance, but now he practically seems to enjoy killing people/aliens.

He didn't seem to be enjoying it, did he crack a smile or make a joke? No. He just seemed less merciful, which I think is fine. That guy did commit genocide against an entire innocent race for simple profit, and killed an innocent creature right infront of the doctor. I don't think anyone would try to keep that guy alive, and the new doctor definitely wouldn't.

He seemed quite satisfied when he asked if the Silurians begged Solomon to stop. And he was definitely enjoying himself in The Impossible Astronaut.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Snip

'


Well I guess it's just perception, because I really didn't think he was enjoying it or even getting satisfaction from it. He just seemed cold, blank and serious about the whole thing, not sad nor happy. And I forget, what killing did the doctor do in TIA? IT's been quite long.

 

[DJjaffacake]

Snip

'


Well I guess it's just perception, because I really didn't think he was enjoying it or even getting satisfaction from it. He just seemed cold, blank and serious about the whole thing, not sad nor happy. And I forget, what killing did the doctor do in TIA? IT's been quite long.

The Silence. True, he didn't personally kill them, but he did intentionally force the human race to commit genocide, and when he did the, "nice thought but it's not Christmas," bit about letting them go seemed very pleased with himself.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Snip

'


Well I guess it's just perception, because I really didn't think he was enjoying it or even getting satisfaction from it. He just seemed cold, blank and serious about the whole thing, not sad nor happy. And I forget, what killing did the doctor do in TIA? IT's been quite long.

The Silence. True, he didn't personally kill them, but he did intentionally force the human race to commit genocide, and when he did the, "nice thought but it's not Christmas," bit about letting them go seemed very pleased with himself.

Well, I guess that's just character development. I couldn't see the ninth doctor doing some of the things the tenth doctor did, and that's exactly the same for this one. The doctor's morality is just becoming grey because well, he's been through a lot of shit. The doctor's tried many, MANY times before to save the villians who have done so much evil, but time and again they never listened and got killed anyway. He's probably been affected by that, and just gave up when it came to saving solomon.

 

[DJjaffacake]

Snip

'


Well I guess it's just perception, because I really didn't think he was enjoying it or even getting satisfaction from it. He just seemed cold, blank and serious about the whole thing, not sad nor happy. And I forget, what killing did the doctor do in TIA? IT's been quite long.

The Silence. True, he didn't personally kill them, but he did intentionally force the human race to commit genocide, and when he did the, "nice thought but it's not Christmas," bit about letting them go seemed very pleased with himself.

Well, I guess that's just character development. I couldn't see the ninth doctor doing some of the things the tenth doctor did, and that's exactly the same for this one. The doctor's morality is just becoming grey because well, he's been through a lot of shit. The doctor's tried many, MANY times before to save the villians who have done so much evil, but time and again they never listened and got killed anyway. He's probably been affected by that, and just gave up when it came to saving solomon.

Huh, I saw it as Nine being very grey in terms of morality, and Ten moving towards white, so maybe that's why I see it as more of a jarring shift than you, TimeLord and Sleekit.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Snip

'


Well I guess it's just perception, because I really didn't think he was enjoying it or even getting satisfaction from it. He just seemed cold, blank and serious about the whole thing, not sad nor happy. And I forget, what killing did the doctor do in TIA? IT's been quite long.

The Silence. True, he didn't personally kill them, but he did intentionally force the human race to commit genocide, and when he did the, "nice thought but it's not Christmas," bit about letting them go seemed very pleased with himself.

Well, I guess that's just character development. I couldn't see the ninth doctor doing some of the things the tenth doctor did, and that's exactly the same for this one. The doctor's morality is just becoming grey because well, he's been through a lot of shit. The doctor's tried many, MANY times before to save the villians who have done so much evil, but time and again they never listened and got killed anyway. He's probably been affected by that, and just gave up when it came to saving solomon.

Huh, I saw it as Nine being very grey in terms of morality, and Ten moving towards white, so maybe that's why I see it as more of a jarring shift than you, TimeLord and Sleekit.

Well it hasn't really been much of a jarring shift, all three season's Smith's been around he's become more grey each episode. And like I said, character development can be both for the better and for the worse, this is of course for the latter. It's not badly done character development for me.

 

[DJjaffacake]

Snip

'


Well I guess it's just perception, because I really didn't think he was enjoying it or even getting satisfaction from it. He just seemed cold, blank and serious about the whole thing, not sad nor happy. And I forget, what killing did the doctor do in TIA? IT's been quite long.

The Silence. True, he didn't personally kill them, but he did intentionally force the human race to commit genocide, and when he did the, "nice thought but it's not Christmas," bit about letting them go seemed very pleased with himself.

Well, I guess that's just character development. I couldn't see the ninth doctor doing some of the things the tenth doctor did, and that's exactly the same for this one. The doctor's morality is just becoming grey because well, he's been through a lot of shit. The doctor's tried many, MANY times before to save the villians who have done so much evil, but time and again they never listened and got killed anyway. He's probably been affected by that, and just gave up when it came to saving solomon.

Huh, I saw it as Nine being very grey in terms of morality, and Ten moving towards white, so maybe that's why I see it as more of a jarring shift than you, TimeLord and Sleekit.

Well it hasn't really been much of a jarring shift, all three season's Smith's been around he's become more grey each episode. And like I said, character development can be both for the better and for the worse, this is of course for the latter. It's not badly done character development for me.

I meant a jarring shift from Ten to Eleven, not this particular episode. In terms of character development, I would have less of an issue with it if I felt there was an adequate reason provided for why he's becoming more violent, one that could counteract the whole genocide thing that led to him becoming less so.

 

[TimeLord]

I'm aware he's not really a pacifist, that's why I went with anti-violence instead, meaning that he abhors its use unless he has no other option. As far as the companions dying for him, judging by his reaction to that bit, he didn't realise he had that effect, and he stops travelling with companions after that. Eleven, conversely, I can see being quite proud in that situation. Like I said, it's not the fact that he's changed, it's the fact that he's changed so much.

I can't see Eleven being proud at companions dying for him. I do think Ten realised what he'd done to those who sacrificed themselves for him but as Davros said "The man who keeps running. Never looking back because he dare not, out of shame." He know that's what happens but he can't stop them doing it.

Also in regards to him looking happy when tricking the Silence and dealing with Soloman; I see that as him more being happy at working out the problem of how to deal with them, not the actual dealing with them. He is "happy" that he used the Silence's own plans against them to turn the human race against them. Something no one else could have thought of. He's "happy" that he worked out how to move the signal from the Silurian ship to Soloman's ship.

 

[Gabanuka]

To be fair Solomon was a complete douche who had it coming, also Rory's dad was a great character.

Frankly I'm jsut looking forward to next weeks, nothing beats cyborg cowboys.

 

[DJjaffacake]

I'm aware he's not really a pacifist, that's why I went with anti-violence instead, meaning that he abhors its use unless he has no other option. As far as the companions dying for him, judging by his reaction to that bit, he didn't realise he had that effect, and he stops travelling with companions after that. Eleven, conversely, I can see being quite proud in that situation. Like I said, it's not the fact that he's changed, it's the fact that he's changed so much.

I can't see Eleven being proud at companions dying for him. I do think Ten realised what he'd done to those who sacrificed themselves for him but as Davros said "The man who keeps running. Never looking back because he dare not, out of shame." He know that's what happens but he can't stop them doing it.

Also in regards to him looking happy when tricking the Silence and dealing with Soloman; I see that as him more being happy at working out the problem of how to deal with them, not the actual dealing with them. He is "happy" that he used the Silence's own plans against them to turn the human race against them. Something no one else could have thought of. He's "happy" that he worked out how to move the signal from the Silurian ship to Soloman's ship.

I guess it's a matter of perception, I see Eleven's actions differently to you, ToastiestZombie and Sleekit it seems, which is causing the difference in opinion of his actions.

 

[Agent Larkin]

Much better then last weeks episode in my opinion

 

[elvor0]

I quite enjoyed it, I was one of those silly one off episodes, that wasn't bad, wasn't amazing, good fun, but ultimately harmless, a heck of a lot tighter and better written than Asylum of the Daleks. Although I do feel like we could've had more development for Ridell, given as far as I can tell wasn't a real historical figure, and Nephetite just seemed to be totally cool with spaceships and dinosours and everything, there wasn't even so much as a "It's bigger on the inside!"

Also, I really didn't like the way he killed Soloman. Granted he was a nasty piece of work, and if The Doctor does let someone die, it's usually a side effect of the events, he doesn't just press the Execute button. I dunno, there's always stuff with Moffat that doesn't sit right with me, which is a shame, because when RTD was writing and he did one off epiosdes, they were usually really good. I think Smith is a great doctor, but he's not been in many great episodes yet. Far too much Deus Ex Machina and convienant plot reversals for my liking, there never seems to be any sense of danger with Moffat on writing.

I will say though, Mitchell and Webb kicked arse as the two robots

 

[Josh123914]

I quite enjoyed it, I was one of those silly one off episodes, that wasn't bad, wasn't amazing, good fun, but ultimately harmless, a heck of a lot tighter and better written than Asylum of the Daleks. Although I do feel like we could've had more development for Ridell, given as far as I can tell wasn't a real historical figure, and Nephetite just seemed to be totally cool with spaceships and dinosours and everything, there wasn't even so much as a "It's bigger on the inside!"

Also, I really didn't like the way he killed Soloman. Granted he was a nasty piece of work, and if The Doctor does let someone die, it's usually a side effect of the events, he doesn't just press the Execute button. I dunno, there's always stuff with Moffat that doesn't sit right with me, which is a shame, because when RTD was writing and he did one off epiosdes, they were usually really good. I think Smith is a great doctor, but he's not been in many great episodes yet. Far too much Deus Ex Machina and convienant plot reversals for my liking, there never seems to be any sense of danger with Moffat on writing.

I will say though, Mitchell and Webb kicked arse as the two robots

I think it's less that Matt Smith's doctor isn't as good as Tennant's, more that he's had to squeeze a lot more plot into his seasons. For Doctors 9 & 10 most of their seasons would have a two parter in the middle of the season that would then be followed up with a two parter as a season finale, with little hints sprinkled in among the (usually) decent stand-alone episodes, compare that to Doctor #11, where over half of last season was getting through the River Song / Silence storyline, of the 13 episode season last year about 8 of them were primarily about fighting the Silence or River Song's past / future (and yes I'm counting the Rebel Flesh 2-parter because argue if you will, without it certain plot points come out of no where)

 

[elvor0]

I quite enjoyed it, I was one of those silly one off episodes, that wasn't bad, wasn't amazing, good fun, but ultimately harmless, a heck of a lot tighter and better written than Asylum of the Daleks. Although I do feel like we could've had more development for Ridell, given as far as I can tell wasn't a real historical figure, and Nephetite just seemed to be totally cool with spaceships and dinosours and everything, there wasn't even so much as a "It's bigger on the inside!"

Also, I really didn't like the way he killed Soloman. Granted he was a nasty piece of work, and if The Doctor does let someone die, it's usually a side effect of the events, he doesn't just press the Execute button. I dunno, there's always stuff with Moffat that doesn't sit right with me, which is a shame, because when RTD was writing and he did one off epiosdes, they were usually really good. I think Smith is a great doctor, but he's not been in many great episodes yet. Far too much Deus Ex Machina and convienant plot reversals for my liking, there never seems to be any sense of danger with Moffat on writing.

I will say though, Mitchell and Webb kicked arse as the two robots

I think it's less that Matt Smith's doctor isn't as good as Tennant's, more that he's had to squeeze a lot more plot into his seasons. For Doctors 9 & 10 most of their seasons would have a two parter in the middle of the season that would then be followed up with a two parter as a season finale, with little hints sprinkled in among the (usually) decent stand-alone episodes, compare that to Doctor #11, where over half of last season was getting through the River Song / Silence storyline, of the 13 episode season last year about 8 of them were primarily about fighting the Silence or River Song's past / future (and yes I'm counting the Rebel Flesh 2-parter because argue if you will, without it certain plot points come out of no where)

I'd say that was a fair assessment of the Smith era, and I am really looking forward to the whole Fields of Trenzelor/Doctor who? thing that's been hinted at, although I suspect that will sadly coincide with Smith leaving the show. Hopefully there'll be a new over arching plot coming up soon, and I think the less River Song the better, she started off as intriguing and a tragic character, but turned into an irritating Mary Sue that can do what ever she wants because stuff.

 

[Gizmo1990]

I want to know what happened to a man who never would.

Edit: I remembered something good though, the Mitchelll and Webb robots were very sinister, what with the stark contrast between being comic relief types but also brutal, unquestioning enforcers.

The way I see it is that at this point The Doctor is simply a very old man who has seen too much bad stuff happen. He is tired of seeing good people/creatures screwed over and time has made him into a cynic and just a little bitter. He has always given people a choice and he has been burnt too many times.

OT: It was ok. Better than it has been in a long time but not amazing. I would not have watched it if not forced to by my girlfriend.

 

[Spacewolf]

About him killing solomon at the end i got the feeling that if the guy had asked for help in a way that wasn't just i'll get you anything though dubious means the Doctor would have saved him.

 

[Brendan Stepladder]

Superbly silly, the only problem I had was the Doctor killing off Soloman at the end. Bit out of character for Smith.

Still, I loved those robots. Except when they were firing lasers.