It would have been good to see the Doctor explain these events to Rory's dad; especially given his promises in The Slow Invasion. Maybe that will occur in a later episode, I'd hate from them to just blanket it over.Ronack said:
Doctor Who Series 7: The Angels Take Manhatten (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter TimeLord
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Indeed, I mean we've known for a while now that they were going to be leaving in this episode, but most people won't have, so for the Doctor to just sod off without telling Rory's Dad seems very cold and a lot more shocking for your general audience. Mind you, we could see that as an extension of Davros' "The man who keeps running".IndianaJonny said:
OP: I really enjoyed it, very tight, barely any plot holes aside from the Book mysteriously turning up out of nowhere, we've got the thing with the gravestone going on, but I think that's down to personal interpretation. I'd say it was by far the best episode of the season, if not one of the best of the Smith era, although this season has been a bit pants to be honest. Even River was okay, I seriously thought they were just going to let her magically have gotten out of the Angel without harming herself though, given her track record.
The bit where they pop up in the graveyard was a massive stinger, I thought Moffat had just trolled us, but then no, no escape from that either. Personally I would've preferred the suicide ending, as it would've been beautifully bitter-sweet, but it's a small gripe at worst, I can see why they did it.
The Statue of Liberty was also awkward, it barely does anything, and it's so big that SOMEONE must've been able to see it, has Moffat never seen Ghost Busters 2? If the statue of liberty moved, you'd fucking notice.
To be fair, the Ponds story arch was done over the last few seasons, this one just seemed to be random adventures rather than an arch. The slow invasion was the calm before the storm for their characters. Granted if they had killed themselves and it stuck, it would've felt a lot more cohesive than them just living out their lives in 1930s New York.Ronack said:
I'm just still not scared of the Angels, they worked well in this episode I just still don't fear them, also I think it was a good send off though I'd like to see some doctor sadness in the next couple of episodes but we probably won't since it's a Christmas episode. Also I would've preferred it if only Rory had fallen off, would've been more sad and maybe he didn't survive the Paradox and Amy resents the Doctor and that's their farewell but I reckon that's a bit too dark...
I think I liked the same things you did, but a few inconsistencies got on my nerves.TimeLord said:
1. Since when can the Doctor just summon up regeneration energy at will? It's been pretty well established that that can only be done soon after regeneration (or, if you go by the rules they set in Tennant's first episode, within 15 hours of regeneration).
2. Who was looking at the Statue of Liberty angel when Amy and Rory were talking on the roof? Rory was looking at first, but for quite a while there before they jumped neither of them was consistently looking at it. Rory was obviously blinking and looking straight at Amy, whose back was turned the whole time. Then River and the Doctor never looked at it, either. I really couldn't enjoy that moment very much because I couldn't help but asking "Who the fuck is looking at the angel?!"
3. Speaking of that, the Statue of Liberty angel just feels like way too much. There are way too many people in New York for something that enormous to just saunter off every now and then without a few people noticing.
4. They seem to be totally ignoring the whole "what captures an image of an angel becomes an angel" thing, because with how many pictures get taken in New York and with how many people see them (because when they set that rule they also established that even a reflection in the eye can become an angel) all of those pictures and people who see those statues every day should be going bonkers. Maybe this is just me overthinking it out of bitterness, but I feel like that was a terrible thing to do with the angels. It doesn't make them scarier, it just makes things complicated. What made the angels scary was their simplicity. "Don't blink"--it's so simple, so perfect. And then it's simple things that always muck it up--the lights flickering, having to blink, reacting out of fear. So, so simple. There was never a need to up the ante any higher.
While there was a lot about this episode I liked, just like The Power of Three there are just so many plotholes in the final act it really put a damper on the episode for me. Strong beginning, but sloppy ending.
Last episode's ending: Let's go have fun adventures, huzzah!
This episode: Ponds are dead, have fun with that.
I both love and hate this severe shift in tone, and for the exact same reason. It made the Ponds death carry a lot more weight for me, seeing them go from cheesy maths lines to, well, that.
Also read some theories that Amy and Rory go and visit Brian at some point which is why he's so accepting of time travel and aliens and all that in DoaS.
Also again, just noticed every episode has 4 word titles. This almost certainly means absolutely nothing but still.
This episode: Ponds are dead, have fun with that.
I both love and hate this severe shift in tone, and for the exact same reason. It made the Ponds death carry a lot more weight for me, seeing them go from cheesy maths lines to, well, that.
Also read some theories that Amy and Rory go and visit Brian at some point which is why he's so accepting of time travel and aliens and all that in DoaS.
Also again, just noticed every episode has 4 word titles. This almost certainly means absolutely nothing but still.
I wanna know how the Statue of Liberty got there so quickly full stop. It is possible that everyone in New York stopped looking at it at the same time for it to initially move a little bit, but once it moved, someone would of been like "hey is there something wrong with the Statue of Liberty". Someone would of been watching it so it wouldn't of moved at all after that. My main problem is when you actually hear it coming to the building The Doctor, River and the Ponds were in, seriously, people would notice the most recognisable statue in the world moving about. That statue would of made it about 3 inches before people started staring at it and stopped it moving.Lilani said:
I agree, that was my reaction, although I figured out what would happen as soon as they turned up in the graveyard again. It still made me cry to see Amy go, and have that be the end. But what a good ending it was.Cpt Corallis said:I loved it. Unreservedly.
The angels were finally back to scary levels, constant movement without seeing it, even the statue of liberty was well done.
I'm gonna be honest, I've gotten so used to having Moffat lie about episode spoilers, that when the Ponds sat up in he graveyard, I completely believed that they would survive. The fact I leapt out of my seat when Rory vanished for the last time is testament to how well he can still make a viewer react.
I'm not sure I can wait till christmas...
It was mostly a good episode.
Aside from the repeating plot hole that angels kept moving when it was extremely unlikely that they wouldn't have been seen. That baby angel in central park that got rory, and especially the goddamn statue of liberty, the moment that took a single step, the entirety of new york would be looking at it for quite some time, and even if for a second not a single person was looking at it, they would sure as hell start looking again if it moved again.
It's nitpicking, but still, it really bugged me because it really should not have worked like that.
Oh and this splitting the series shit has got to stop. Remind me, why did someone think this was a good idea? Was it budget? Fuck off, BBC, you essentially have a tax all to yourself for most of the goddamn country, even if they never watch a single second of BBC television. Was it another stupid talent contest? Then have your fucking talent contest when you've completed the series, I do not see how this is such a severe problem that you have to give us such shorts runs of Doctor who.
Aside from the repeating plot hole that angels kept moving when it was extremely unlikely that they wouldn't have been seen. That baby angel in central park that got rory, and especially the goddamn statue of liberty, the moment that took a single step, the entirety of new york would be looking at it for quite some time, and even if for a second not a single person was looking at it, they would sure as hell start looking again if it moved again.
It's nitpicking, but still, it really bugged me because it really should not have worked like that.
Oh and this splitting the series shit has got to stop. Remind me, why did someone think this was a good idea? Was it budget? Fuck off, BBC, you essentially have a tax all to yourself for most of the goddamn country, even if they never watch a single second of BBC television. Was it another stupid talent contest? Then have your fucking talent contest when you've completed the series, I do not see how this is such a severe problem that you have to give us such shorts runs of Doctor who.
*Raises hand*TimeLord said:
I kinda' hoped that something that insane wouldn't happen, but in my heart I knew it would. Oh god, I will never look at New York the same... First Daleks, now this!
Moffat thinks it is a good idea. He says it builds suspense. I think it damaged the last series. Moffat said it was good that fans got 3 months to let A Good Man Goes to War 'sink in'. I did not like it but did not think it was all that bad. I know people who did like it. But after 3 months of thinking about the plot holes and Rivers stupid reveal most of us, the ones who liked it included, hated it.Doclector said:
Is it wrong of me to want a companion who ends up just dead?!
I mean-
Rose: Living in other universe with human Doctor.
Martha: Goes off and does her own thing.
Donna: Can't remember but lives her life.
Ponds: Get to live in the past.
I know writers can get attatched to their characters but wouldn't it be more tragic and impacting if they just kicked the bucket?
Eh.
I also thought the statue of liberty thing was just plain stupid.
Otherwise, I thought the episode was pretty good (though I don't know why the Doctor suddenly has the power to pull regeneration out whenever he fancies).
I mean-
Rose: Living in other universe with human Doctor.
Martha: Goes off and does her own thing.
Donna: Can't remember but lives her life.
Ponds: Get to live in the past.
I know writers can get attatched to their characters but wouldn't it be more tragic and impacting if they just kicked the bucket?
Eh.
I also thought the statue of liberty thing was just plain stupid.
Otherwise, I thought the episode was pretty good (though I don't know why the Doctor suddenly has the power to pull regeneration out whenever he fancies).
I thought the emotional impact of this episode was huge, much more so than previous companion send offs. The hope of survival being taken away by the spite of an angel was the real stinger to me.
I also loved how the angels worked. They were actually scary this time, which I think has more to do with the fact the viewer doesnt see them move like the last episodes they were in.
I also loved how the angels worked. They were actually scary this time, which I think has more to do with the fact the viewer doesnt see them move like the last episodes they were in.
Splitting the series is a terrible, terrible idea.Gizmo1990 said:
Please stop.
OT: Apart from Lady Liberty, I loved the episode. Good pacing, great setting, and bittersweet ending. Now if only Steven Moffat can concentrate and make the rest of series seven like this, we might be getting somewhere.
Just think back to blink when the girl was wandering around the house at the beginning of the episode,and how the angel would periodically get closer to the widow, it didn't grab her when she wasn't looking at it because the camera kept cutting to it and we could see it, therefore it turned to stone.Lilani said:
I know the whole thing is there mainly for plot convenience but it was still a clever thing to think of.