Alternate history. Caricature. The game isn't out to make a political statement, it's just creating a world that is defined by extreme versions of some viewpoints which were sadly present at the time.Hammartroll said:
Does anyone else find Bioshock Infinite's propaganda posters offensive?
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not really, i mean if u take offense to it just dont buy it no need to start a thread about it.
Hm, I can liken this to the 'British National Party' (basically a single-issue party focused on migration policy; it is often accused of being racist and being pro-Nazi/having Nazi sympathies) whom used the image of Winston Churchill in their propaganda for their party:
Britons who were against BNP party policy took offence. So I can understand how people may take offence when certain 'sensitive' aspects of their country's history are used as propaganda.
Britons who were against BNP party policy took offence. So I can understand how people may take offence when certain 'sensitive' aspects of their country's history are used as propaganda.
As one of the offended Britons, I can confirm that. Still there's quite a difference. Though you might not think it to look at their ridiculous troll logic, the BNP are/were a serious political party. By contrast, Bioshock's Columbia is totally fictional, hell, it's intended as a perversion of America's founding ideals.the_honey_badger said:Hm, I can liken this to the 'British National Party' (basically a single-issue party focused on migration policy; it is often accused of being racist and being pro-Nazi/having Nazi sympathies) whom used the image of Winston Churchill in their propaganda for their party:
Britons who were against BNP party policy took offence. So I can understand how people may take offence when certain 'sensitive' aspects of their country's history are used as propaganda.
It might also be worth pointing out that Churchill was a steadfast imperialist who supported colonial control of India, just like the Founding Fathers were far from spotless. IMO, work portraying them as racists or Churchill as an oppressor would have a strong, though probably exaggerated, grounding in reality.
Themstocles? as in the Athenian general that fought in the Persian Invasion circa 500BCE?kidd25 said:
What does he have to do with the Bioshock games at all?
I agree, it's why I won't be buying this game. Too many Liberals in America have a tendency to ludicrously exaggerate their portrayal of Conservatives into Nazi like Strawmen. I am moderate, and even I am just outright disgusted by how people like Ken Levine tend to portray traditional America and the Average American. It is a problem throughout many fanchises. Marvel comics entire X-men franchise basically runs on the concept that the average American is stupid and bigoted.Hammartroll said:The purpose of Columbia, the flying city in Bioshock Infinite, is to show the greatness Jeffersonian Democracy can achieve, which is an interesting idea, but the propaganda posters scattered around the city misrepresents it's values. Here's the main culprit:
First off most of the United States founders were Freemasons or at least approved of Freemason beliefes, and for the most part Deists. Freemasonry encouraged equality among all groups of people no matter their backround or religion, so having a picture of a founder refusing people entrance into the US simply because they're foreign as well as holding Christianity up as the prefered religion misrepresents American values, both in the 1700s and 1900s.
And to further examplify my point I want to refer to the poem "The New Colossus" which was written in 1883, a point in time very close to when Infinite takes place (basically the guilded age), and was engraved on the Statue of Liberty (which was pretty much a huge welcome sign to foreigners) in 1903.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Now take another look at that propaganda poster, does it really represent American views or values? It obviously dosen't, infact it's an insult. It's a perversion of what the US really did stand for. I can understand making a modern political commentary about immigration even if I don't agree with the stance; just don't act like it's our founder's fault.
I also want to point out how inconsistant an idea it is to have a flying city designed to show off and encourage Jeffersonian Democracy to other nations around the globe, but have posters telling those people they're cretans and to stay out. Columbia might as well be a giant flying middle finger.. and posters like this certainly dosn't help:
I understand there was a eugenics movement in the United States some time in the 20s, but it's purpose was to breed out the crippled and mentally ill, basically burdens of the state, not promote a particular race; that was just the Nazies. So once again the game is wrongly portraying the US as racist.
I know the US has been involved in some questionable activities both today and through out history, but to miscontrue us as total bad guys and disregard the strides in equality and humanity America has made is just looking at things in black and white and if anything, it's a sign that the creators of this game are victims of anti-American propaganda themselves.
Those posters pretty much show the American mindset at the time, especially the "Cheap Chinese laborers are going to steal our jobs!" scare.
America even had laws to restrict immigration heavily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
America even had laws to restrict immigration heavily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
You know that image OP is offended by? That
And people make
to this very day, unfortunately. They're just not quite as blatant about their racist imagery. I was annoyed at Bioshock: Infinite for going after some low-hanging fruit, until I realized that anti-immigrant politics is still very much a thing in some circles.
And people make
This isn't a game set in the real world and should not be mistaken for such. It has American culture influenced history in it's imagery because that is the time frame and location of where the game is set - but it's not even a game set on American soil, thus detached from America itself and history - because, at the end of the day, it's not real.
Plus it's propaganda. If it's not offending some one it isn't working.
Plus it's propaganda. If it's not offending some one it isn't working.
The average human is stupid and bigoted. America is just a popular setting for fiction. And it's a very diverse country, so there's always opportunity for racism.RelexCryo said:
Doesn't change the fact that eugenics was huge in America pre-WW2. In fact, a lot of Americans (and Europeans) agreed with Hitler's points of view. The reason war broke out was because Hitler was invading other countries, not to stop his evil reign of terror and prevent his Final Solution.
That's not really a political liberal vs conservative thing, that's just history.
You appear to be taking a game premise personally. Bioshock games are supposed to take political concepts to an exaggerated extreme to illustrate how destructive they can be in excess. Infinite isn't saying America is like that, it's giving a vision of what a city could be like if the stereotype you so despise was taken to its extreme.RelexCryo said:I agree, it's why I won't be buying this game. Too many Liberals in America have a tendency to ludicrously exaggerate their portrayal of Conservatives into Nazi like Strawmen. I am moderate, and even I am just outright disgusted by how people like Ken Levine tend to portray traditional America and the Average American. It is a problem throughout many fanchises. Marvel comics entire X-men franchise basically runs on the concept that the average American is stupid and bigoted.Hammartroll said:The purpose of Columbia, the flying city in Bioshock Infinite, is to show the greatness Jeffersonian Democracy can achieve, which is an interesting idea, but the propaganda posters scattered around the city misrepresents it's values. Here's the main culprit:
First off most of the United States founders were Freemasons or at least approved of Freemason beliefes, and for the most part Deists. Freemasonry encouraged equality among all groups of people no matter their backround or religion, so having a picture of a founder refusing people entrance into the US simply because they're foreign as well as holding Christianity up as the prefered religion misrepresents American values, both in the 1700s and 1900s.
And to further examplify my point I want to refer to the poem "The New Colossus" which was written in 1883, a point in time very close to when Infinite takes place (basically the guilded age), and was engraved on the Statue of Liberty (which was pretty much a huge welcome sign to foreigners) in 1903.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Now take another look at that propaganda poster, does it really represent American views or values? It obviously dosen't, infact it's an insult. It's a perversion of what the US really did stand for. I can understand making a modern political commentary about immigration even if I don't agree with the stance; just don't act like it's our founder's fault.
I also want to point out how inconsistant an idea it is to have a flying city designed to show off and encourage Jeffersonian Democracy to other nations around the globe, but have posters telling those people they're cretans and to stay out. Columbia might as well be a giant flying middle finger.. and posters like this certainly dosn't help:
I understand there was a eugenics movement in the United States some time in the 20s, but it's purpose was to breed out the crippled and mentally ill, basically burdens of the state, not promote a particular race; that was just the Nazies. So once again the game is wrongly portraying the US as racist.
I know the US has been involved in some questionable activities both today and through out history, but to miscontrue us as total bad guys and disregard the strides in equality and humanity America has made is just looking at things in black and white and if anything, it's a sign that the creators of this game are victims of anti-American propaganda themselves.
It's also worth remembering that, if I remember correctly, the game won't just feature exaggerated right-wing racists. The other enemy faction consists consists of a bloody and mindless workers' revolution, so your hated 'Liberals' are hardly immune from criticism themselves.
