Does every WW2 film from any nation's perspective have to cover it's war crimes?

[josak]

I raise this obviously over the issue of "The Wind Rises" which has been accused of being Japanese WW2 apologism because a film focused on a military plane designer does not make note of Japan's atrocities in WW2. I am not claiming Japan did not commit such atrocities, indeed there is little I have ever read as horrifying as accounts of the rape of Nanking BUT

Every major nation in WW2 has war crimes under it's belt, the US has not only the intentional targeting of civilians with nuclear weapons but also Operation teardrop, the Biscari massacre, The massacre of Audouville-la-Hubert etc. etc.

Britain (and the US) intentionally targeted civilians during the bombing of Dresden etc. etc.

The Soviets have the rape of Berlin etc. etc.

Yet "Saving Private Ryan" was not condemned for not skipping over to Italy or Hiroshima to show us these atrocities. They simply aren't relevant to the film and the fact that a Japanese film (by a pacifist no less) is being criticized for not doing so demonstrates rampant hypocrisy and a serious lack of self analysis.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I think the problem might be because Japan like denying its war crimes.

Germany, OTOH, makes a big fuss letting everyone know exactly what they did.

(As an aside, I don't know if bombing civilians for military purposes is a war crime as such)

 

[Albino Boo]

Japan in general does not acknowledge its war crimes and in its own school textbooks glosses over or tells outright lies. The British, German and American do not pretend bad things didn't happen which is what happens in Russia and Japan. Japanese Prime Minsters visit the Yasukuni shrine which includes honours for convicted war criminals. German Chancellors don't go to Goering grave. The cristim is because Japan in general just pretends its war crimes didn't happen

 

[Dragonlayer]

I don't think it should be mandatory to include a war crime scene, just to drill into our thick skulls that some nasty things happen in war and that some really nasty things happened in WW2, but I can see how people might assume a film like The Wind Rises is trying to gloss over atrocities because of the historical Japanese attitude to said atrocities.

 

[Albino Boo]

Japan in general does not acknowledge its war crimes and in its own school textbooks glosses over or tells outright lies.

Not exactly.... see, this topic is tricky because the Japanese government has apologized for its Imperial aggression and crimes against humanity multiple times. The problem is that the government takes a stance, and then members of the government or prominent public figures will take the opposite stance, claiming it "personal opinion". And because Official government apologies, like anything the Japanese government does, is dull and droning and vague, while these "personal opinions" tend to be strongly-worded and on the order of ignorance and denial we might expect from a Neo-Nazi or the WBC, Japan's official position can seem confusing. Even worse, because in Japan confrontation goes so against the grain of society, loads of Japanese people may think these equivalents to Holocaust-deniers are loathsome scum, but hardly anyone will ever say anything about it. In that ambiguous silence, it appears that Japanese people agree with the scum.

The British, German and American do not pretend bad things didn't happen which is what happens in Russia and Japan.

I strongly disagree with this. As an American, I have routinely encountered a strong reluctance from other Americans to admit that the US military was anything short of Superheroes with Paladin-like virtue in WWII. I have been called "un-American" just for suggesting that the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not necessary. But as much as I think "Americans do it too," it's worse with Japanese denialism. Firstly because the Imperial Japanese army was the aggressor. Secondly, because while the US Forces may have sacrificed the moral high ground to make their victory more expedient, the Japanese Imperial forces abandoned it with wanton barbarism and cruelty. Things like the Rape of Nanking, "comfort women", and Unit 731 offered Japan no tactical or strategic advantage in the War. They were cruelty for its own sake.

This is why I think it's perfectly right to be unhappy with Miyazaki glossing over Japanese wrongdoing[footnote]If he actually did so... I haven't seen this movie yet.[/footnote]. He's in a rare position of power that he can take a public stance against these denialist scumbags, and he's relatively unassailable. He could retire any time he wants to, he's the defacto head of his studio, and because he's so well respected at home and abroad people will be reluctant to punish him because Japan needs his studio's magic if they're to keep pushing Japanese "soft power" as an international influence to counterpoint every time a member of the Diet says something idiotic and it makes it into the foreign press. He saw evil, and unlike most people in Japanese society he had the power to take a stand against it. Whether because of cowardice, ignorance, apathy, or some other reason, he chose not to take action when he had the power to do good. And I think the public has the right to scold him for it, just as we might scold someone holding a cell phone who sees someone get hit by a car and makes no effort to call for assistance.

The official history textbooks of the Japanese school system makes no mentions of Japanese war crimes further more it tell downright lies that the 10000s of women forced in Japanese army Brothels were volunteers. It make no mention of the Burma railroad. The text also fails to mention the use of chemical weapons in China or the use of Chinese as live subjects for biological warfare. A pro forma apology makes no difference when you refuse to teach in schools the truth of Japan's behaviour. You wont see a German politician going to an SS graveyard but mainstream Japanese politicians go the graves of Japanese war criminals.

The very fact that you that America behaviour wasn't always the greatest is far more than the total level ignorance and silence on the subject of Japanese war crimes that exits.

 

[Dragonlayer]

Japan in general does not acknowledge its war crimes and in its own school textbooks glosses over or tells outright lies.

Not exactly.... see, this topic is tricky because the Japanese government has apologized for its Imperial aggression and crimes against humanity multiple times. The problem is that the government takes a stance, and then members of the government or prominent public figures will take the opposite stance, claiming it "personal opinion". And because Official government apologies, like anything the Japanese government does, is dull and droning and vague, while these "personal opinions" tend to be strongly-worded and on the order of ignorance and denial we might expect from a Neo-Nazi or the WBC, Japan's official position can seem confusing. Even worse, because in Japan confrontation goes so against the grain of society, loads of Japanese people may think these equivalents to Holocaust-deniers are loathsome scum, but hardly anyone will ever say anything about it. In that ambiguous silence, it appears that Japanese people agree with the scum.

The British, German and American do not pretend bad things didn't happen which is what happens in Russia and Japan.

I strongly disagree with this. As an American, I have routinely encountered a strong reluctance from other Americans to admit that the US military was anything short of Superheroes with Paladin-like virtue in WWII. I have been called "un-American" just for suggesting that the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not necessary. But as much as I think "Americans do it too," it's worse with Japanese denialism. Firstly because the Imperial Japanese army was the aggressor. Secondly, because while the US Forces may have sacrificed the moral high ground to make their victory more expedient, the Japanese Imperial forces abandoned it with wanton barbarism and cruelty. Things like the Rape of Nanking, "comfort women", and Unit 731 offered Japan no tactical or strategic advantage in the War. They were cruelty for its own sake.

This is why I think it's perfectly right to be unhappy with Miyazaki glossing over Japanese wrongdoing[footnote]If he actually did so... I haven't seen this movie yet.[/footnote]. He's in a rare position of power that he can take a public stance against these denialist scumbags, and he's relatively unassailable. He could retire any time he wants to, he's the defacto head of his studio, and because he's so well respected at home and abroad people will be reluctant to punish him because Japan needs his studio's magic if they're to keep pushing Japanese "soft power" as an international influence to counterpoint every time a member of the Diet says something idiotic and it makes it into the foreign press. He saw evil, and unlike most people in Japanese society he had the power to take a stand against it. Whether because of cowardice, ignorance, apathy, or some other reason, he chose not to take action when he had the power to do good. And I think the public has the right to scold him for it, just as we might scold someone holding a cell phone who sees someone get hit by a car and makes no effort to call for assistance.

The official history textbooks of the Japanese school system makes no mentions of Japanese war crimes further more it tell downright lies that the 10000s of women forced in Japanese army Brothels were volunteers. It make no mention of the Burma railroad. The text also fails to mention the use of chemical weapons in China or the use of Chinese as live subjects for biological warfare. A pro forma apology makes no difference when you refuse to teach in schools the truth of Japan's behaviour. You wont see a German politician going to an SS graveyard but mainstream Japanese politicians go the graves of Japanese war criminals.

The very fact that you that America behaviour wasn't always the greatest is far more than the total level ignorance and silence on the subject of Japanese war crimes that exits.

Wasn't there a big outcry in the 80s when Reagan and some German politicians paid their respects to a war cemetery that also contained Waffen SS dead?

 

[Albino Boo]

Wasn't there a big outcry in the 80s when Reagan and some German politicians paid their respects to a war cemetery that also contained Waffen SS dead?

Yes but that has not been repeated by any other President . Yasukuni shrine visits by the Japanese Prime ministers is repeated and each and every time there is a visit, it causes problems with China and both Koreas. Japan added the names of war criminals in 1978. Furthermore the shrine's musume use the nationalist propaganda line that Japan was forced into war by the United States and all Japan wanted was a co-prosperity sphere for Asians. The millions of Chinese and Korean victims puts a lie to that statement.

 

[Dragonlayer]

Wasn't there a big outcry in the 80s when Reagan and some German politicians paid their respects to a war cemetery that also contained Waffen SS dead?

that was in Bitburg. The Ramones recorded a song about it called "bonzo goes to Bitburg". showing my age here

I'm going to have to show my young age here, since I've only ever heard of the Ramones through the Simpsons. Hmmm, looks like the dead men were part of the Das Reich division: plenty of atrocities, but not upto the standards of the Slavic Waffen SS units. Interesting....

 

[josak]

Japan in general does not acknowledge its war crimes and in its own school textbooks glosses over or tells outright lies.

Not exactly.... see, this topic is tricky because the Japanese government has apologized for its Imperial aggression and crimes against humanity multiple times. The problem is that the government takes a stance, and then members of the government or prominent public figures will take the opposite stance, claiming it "personal opinion". And because Official government apologies, like anything the Japanese government does, is dull and droning and vague, while these "personal opinions" tend to be strongly-worded and on the order of ignorance and denial we might expect from a Neo-Nazi or the WBC, Japan's official position can seem confusing. Even worse, because in Japan confrontation goes so against the grain of society, loads of Japanese people may think these equivalents to Holocaust-deniers are loathsome scum, but hardly anyone will ever say anything about it. In that ambiguous silence, it appears that Japanese people agree with the scum.

The British, German and American do not pretend bad things didn't happen which is what happens in Russia and Japan.

I strongly disagree with this. As an American, I have routinely encountered a strong reluctance from other Americans to admit that the US military was anything short of Superheroes with Paladin-like virtue in WWII. I have been called "un-American" just for suggesting that the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not necessary. But as much as I think "Americans do it too," it's worse with Japanese denialism. Firstly because the Imperial Japanese army was the aggressor. Secondly, because while the US Forces may have sacrificed the moral high ground to make their victory more expedient, the Japanese Imperial forces abandoned it with wanton barbarism and cruelty. Things like the Rape of Nanking, "comfort women", and Unit 731 offered Japan no tactical or strategic advantage in the War. They were cruelty for its own sake.

This is why I think it's perfectly right to be unhappy with Miyazaki glossing over Japanese wrongdoing[footnote]If he actually did so... I haven't seen this movie yet.[/footnote]. He's in a rare position of power that he can take a public stance against these denialist scumbags, and he's relatively unassailable. He could retire any time he wants to, he's the defacto head of his studio, and because he's so well respected at home and abroad people will be reluctant to punish him because Japan needs his studio's magic if they're to keep pushing Japanese "soft power" as an international influence to counterpoint every time a member of the Diet says something idiotic and it makes it into the foreign press. He saw evil, and unlike most people in Japanese society he had the power to take a stand against it. Whether because of cowardice, ignorance, apathy, or some other reason, he chose not to take action when he had the power to do good. And I think the public has the right to scold him for it, just as we might scold someone holding a cell phone who sees someone get hit by a car and makes no effort to call for assistance.

The official history textbooks of the Japanese school system makes no mentions of Japanese war crimes further more it tell downright lies that the 10000s of women forced in Japanese army Brothels were volunteers. It make no mention of the Burma railroad. The text also fails to mention the use of chemical weapons in China or the use of Chinese as live subjects for biological warfare. A pro forma apology makes no difference when you refuse to teach in schools the truth of Japan's behaviour. You wont see a German politician going to an SS graveyard but mainstream Japanese politicians go the graves of Japanese war criminals.

The very fact that you that America behaviour wasn't always the greatest is far more than the total level ignorance and silence on the subject of Japanese war crimes that exits.

OK that is simply not true, I know several Japanese people and all are aware of the war and most acknowledge they did horrible things in it, I know one (out of 7) who thinks that they did terrible things which were justified given the situation. That seems to me to be about the same as not better than what say the average American believes as I know lots of Americans who will defend every single atrocity ever committed by the US military.

 

[Albino Boo]

OK that is simply not true, I know several Japanese people and all are aware of the war and most acknowledge they did horrible things in it, I know one (out of 7) who thinks that they did terrible things which were justified given the situation. That seems to me to be about the same as not better than what say the average American believes as I know lots of Americans who will defend every single atrocity ever committed by the US military.

Again with the false equivalence, the Japanese state is engaging is systematic whitewashing of the past. The American government is not going to add the names of the people who committed the Mi lay massacre to the Vietnam war memorial and yet the with the full agreement of the Japanese 1618 convicted war criminals were added to the Yasukuni shrine, which acts as a memorial to Japanese war dead. There is a difference between the beliefs of individuals and the action of the national government.

 

[josak]

Wasn't there a big outcry in the 80s when Reagan and some German politicians paid their respects to a war cemetery that also contained Waffen SS dead?

Yes but that has not been repeated by any other President . Yasukuni shrine visits by the Japanese Prime ministers is repeated and each and every time there is a visit, it causes problems with China and both Koreas. Japan added the names of war criminals in 1978. Furthermore the shrine's musume use the nationalist propaganda line that Japan was forced into war by the United States and all Japan wanted was a co-prosperity sphere for Asians. The millions of Chinese and Korean victims puts a lie to that statement.

I believe American presidents visit the graveyards of which contain several war criminals, I would further claim the fact that we don't even know off hand which ones contain such people just proves how much more ignorant we are of our war crimes. Do you know for example where Major-General Raymond Hufft is buried? That guy admitted that if the US had lost the war he would be tried for war crimes (he ordered troops to kill all German soldiers who surrendered beyond the Rhine).

It's also a rare American who will know about Perry's forced opening of Japan.

 

[josak]

OK that is simply not true, I know several Japanese people and all are aware of the war and most acknowledge they did horrible things in it, I know one (out of 7) who thinks that they did terrible things which were justified given the situation. That seems to me to be about the same as not better than what say the average American believes as I know lots of Americans who will defend every single atrocity ever committed by the US military.

Again with the false equivalence, the Japanese state is engaging is systematic whitewashing of the past. The American government is not going to add the names of the people who committed the Mi lay massacre to the Vietnam war memorial and yet the with the full agreement of the Japanese 1618 convicted war criminals were added to the Yasukuni shrine, which acts as a memorial to Japanese war dead. There is a difference between the beliefs of individuals and the action of the national government.

Seriously, you are telling me if I look I won't find anyone responsible of war crimes on a US military memorial or cemetery? (or any other country for that matter?).

 

[josak]

I think the problem might be because Japan like denying its war crimes.

Germany, OTOH, makes a big fuss letting everyone know exactly what they did.

(As an aside, I don't know if bombing civilians for military purposes is a war crime as such)

Yup bombing civilians intentionally absolutely is a war crime "War crimes also included deliberate attacks on citizens".

 

[josak]

criticism of Japan in this context probably has a lot to do with the fact that basically Japan doesn't think it did anything wrong.

very big on the idea "the bomb" was wrong...not very big on any negative interpretation of Japanese history leading up to that...perhaps even worse than that, that's "the line" that's taught to people in schools and via shrines and war museums etc...ie that it was basically "a just war" they were suitably justly and heroically fighting and they were defeated by a terrible weapon that should never have been used.

something which i might point out is completely different to how the history of the war is taught/viewed in Germany.

there is a great deal of external concern in the minds of those who consider such things that Japan is in danger of basically not learning any cultural lessons from WW2 because it has basically never sincerely sought to make itself do so...that and...well...history hasn't ended yet...and one thing tends to lead into another...

this is Japans secret...like finding out how racist Australia is...

Germany is probably a unique example of that occurring the vast majority of nations play politics with their war crimes. At school I was taught the nuclear bomb was completely justified for example.

 

[Albino Boo]

OK that is simply not true, I know several Japanese people and all are aware of the war and most acknowledge they did horrible things in it, I know one (out of 7) who thinks that they did terrible things which were justified given the situation. That seems to me to be about the same as not better than what say the average American believes as I know lots of Americans who will defend every single atrocity ever committed by the US military.

Again with the false equivalence, the Japanese state is engaging is systematic whitewashing of the past. The American government is not going to add the names of the people who committed the Mi lay massacre to the Vietnam war memorial and yet the with the full agreement of the Japanese 1618 convicted war criminals were added to the Yasukuni shrine, which acts as a memorial to Japanese war dead. There is a difference between the beliefs of individuals and the action of the national government.

Seriously, you are telling me if I look I won't find anyone responsible of war crimes on a US military memorial or cemetery? (or any other country for that matter?).

No but the US government has not decided to add the names of war criminals who had been executed for their crimes to a war memorial. Again with the false equivalence.

I believe American presidents visit the graveyards of which contain several war criminals, I would further claim the fact that we don't even know off hand which ones contain such people just proves how much more ignorant we are of our war crimes. Do you know for example where Major-General Raymond Hufft is buried? That guy admitted that if the US had lost the war he would be tried for war crimes (he ordered troops to kill all German soldiers who surrendered beyond the Rhine).

It's also a rare American who will know about Perry's forced opening of Japan.

Yet again wit the false equivalence. The visits the Yasukuni shrine is part of systematic whitewashing of the past. Japanese school textbooks version of the Japanese occupation of Korea goes into great detail about the industrialization of Korea that took place under Japanese rule between 1905-1945. However it makes no mention of the fact Japanse rule made speaking Korean a criminal offence and forced all Korean nationals have a Japanese name which they were known by in public. Japan tried to wipe Korean culture out but its not mentioned once in school history books. Every German school child is taught the reality of the 3rd Reich, every Japanese school child is taught version of the past the deliberately glosses over the truth of Japan's past. Germany's children are taught that Germans used slave labour in its war machine, Japanese children are taught that they were not slave labourers but volunteers.