Does "film-noir" actually exist?

[the Dept of Science]

Ok, this sounds like a stupid topic for a thread; film noir was a genre of black and white movies in the 40s and 50s, including such classics as the Maltese Falcon, Night of the Hunter, Norotious and Strangers on a Train.

On the other hand, we all have in our mind this idea of film noir. Black and white (but mainly black), jazz soundtrack. A detached and cynical private detective, sitting in a smoke filled office, narrates about society's seedy underbelly. A lady in black clothes with a long cigarette holder in one hand and a revolver in the other bursts though the door. Humphrey Bogart may be involved somehow. Its a staple of our idea of 1950s culture.
Yet, while I have seen this thing played out many times in parody or pastiche and I've seen some of the elements in other movies, I've never actually seen a film-noir which resembles this stereotype.

The question is, are there any films in which scenes like that actually happen? Does this scene only exist in parody and pastiche? If its not in any movies, where did this image come from?

Please enlighten me.

 

[GWarface]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir

Havent seen that many, have seen a few but dont remember their names... Its a cool genre and without it, we wouldnt have Max Pain...

Edit: I remember seeing one where you see the movie through the detectives eyes... that was pretty cool and very different from what we see today...

 

[Dags90]

Yes. For reference, anything with the character "Mike Hammer." You'll find many literary and at least one film example from this series alone. They existed and they were wildly popular at the time.

 

[the Dept of Science]

Yes. For reference, anything with the character "Mike Hammer." You'll find many literary and at least one film example from this series alone. They existed and they were wildly popular at the time.

Is anything involving Mike Hammer actually good or is there a reason why, by the looks of it, he has been largely forgotten about?

 

[Gralian]

I haven't seen it, and i'm going out on a limb here but... maybe Casablanca?

 

[Dags90]

Is anything involving Mike Hammer actually good or is there a reason why, by the looks of it, he has been largely forgotten about?

They're entertaining stories and are pretty well written. They're pretty heavily laden with cultural baggage and the culture shock can be a bit off putting to some. They're definitely not literary masterpieces that explore the human condition; more in line with current James Bond action movies.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I haven't seen it, and i'm going out on a limb here but... maybe Casablanca?

Hissss... watch it. Fantastic film.

What has happened though is the departure of noir into different genres. Film Solieil (Desperados), Sci-Fi Noir (Bladerunner), Neo-Noir (Reservoir Dogs)

Most of the great noir movies were made during the 50s/60s and from that the spoofs were born Who framed Roger Rabbit, Dead Men don't wear Plaid. etc.

It's more a way of filming now than a specific genre in itself.

 

[Lolth17]

You did mention The Maltese Falcon, that to me is a prime example of noir. Is there a reason why you're discounting it as one? It has all the elements you're looking for, femme fatale, hard-boiled detective, gritty black and white, etc, etc. Plus it's Bogey, who's like a god among actors.

 

[Duskwaith]

If you count Sin city then maybe.

 

[the Dept of Science]

You did mention The Maltese Falcon, that to me is a prime example of noir. Is there a reason why you're discounting it as one? It has all the elements you're looking for, femme fatale, hard-boiled detective, gritty black and white, etc, etc. Plus it's Bogey, who's like a god among actors.

Thats the closest movie I have seen to the stereotype, but (without meaning to sound super petty), there wasn't the narration or jazz music, which I always saw as 2 of the most integral parts of the image I had.

 

[Obliterato]

Doing a Film and TV degree, walked about this last year in Classical Hollywood. Of the reading I found basically you cannot tie down the elements of film noir, not all films considered film noir have the same themes and thematic elements so on the one hand, no it's not a genre because you can't pin it down to certain elements. I could go into how you should ask yourself if genre really exists but that's a seperate issue. However one writer I read, can't remember who, said soemthing along the lines of, 'you can;t describe film noir, but you know film noir when you see it' (Massive paraphrasing, wasn't written anyhing like that, been a whole 2 terms and the summer between when I did that module). So I haven't answered your queston, but neither have the academics that write about films as a job. Two films I'd recommend you look at are, as mentioned before, The Maltese Falcon and Out of the Past directed by Jaques Tourneur and starring Robert Mitchum.

 

[the Dept of Science]

Doing a Film and TV degree, walked about this last year in Classical Hollywood. Of the reading I found basically you cannot tie down the elements of film noir, not all films considered film noir have the same themes and thematic elements so on the one hand, no it's not a genre because you can't pin it down to certain elements. I could go into how you should ask yourself if genre really exists but that's a seperate issue. However one writer I read, can't remember who, said soemthing along the lines of, 'you can;t describe film noir, but you know film noir when you see it' (Massive paraphrasing, wasn't written anyhing like that, been a whole 2 terms and the summer between when I did that module). So I haven't answered your queston, but neither have the academics that write about films as a job. Two films I'd recommend you look at are, as mentioned before, The Maltese Falcon and Out of the Past directed by Jaques Tourneur and starring Robert Mitchum.

I've seen the Maltese Falcon, I'll check out Out of the Past. I thought Robert Mitchum was great in Night of the Hunter, one of the best performances I've seen recently, but I'd not heard of many other movies that he had been in.

I would say though, my question was more "where did that noir stereotype come from?".

 

[Keirgo]

Film studies student to the rescue!

The term Film Noir actually stems from the lighting. See, back in the old days when 'B' movies existed their budgets were terribly, terribly small. So to compensate alot of new tricks had to be developed to save money. A big one was to cut down on lighting and take advantage of the darkness for atmosphere.

This trick was very effective and useful and so was employed alot more later on. While old detective films are seen as the core of 'Film Noir' there's a bit more to it than that, but the lighting is the original key point. Of course, as more films were made in this style more 'mythos', if you will, became attatched to them. if I remember correctly the considered key points are the lighting, the presence of a mystery, corruption, temptation (normally sexual in the form of the Femme Fetale)and an underdog hero who has circumstance pitted against them, aswell as antagonists.

Hope that helps!

 

[wall5970]

From what I've seen, Keirgo is correct. I'm not a film studies student by any means, but I've seen a bit of film noir and it does seem to have quite a few atmospheric lighting tricks (I just didn't know it was because of budget restraints, reminds me of how they worked Silent Hill 1 on the PS).

One of my favorite film noir movies is "Quicksand" from 1950 starring Mickey Rooney.

 

[Cheery Lunatic]

I love film noir! My favorite is Laura.

Obviously, parodies over-exaggerate hence the whole overblown stereotype.

 

[tigermilk]

'Film Noir' is a contencious and contested term. As you say the term refers to a body of work (very few experts/academics would agree with the use of the term "genre") which for the sake of argument we shall say starts with 'The Maltese Falcon' (Huston 1941) and ends with 'Touch of Evil' (Welles 1958).

The conventions as I say are disputed this can be put down to a number of reasons. One is that the term was most famously termed first in 1955 by a French film writer in a text called 'Panomies Du Cinema' (if memory serves me) (there is an earlier disputed use of the term). In the 1970's there was a revival of critical reapraisal amongst American critics possibly in reference to the "self hate" (Schraeder 1974) cinema of the 1970's.

Most of the core early texts (all available in Alain De Silver's (ed) 'Film Noir Reader Vol 1' discuss and dispute the exact conventions many of which you mention. The cinematography was both a byproduct of economic conditions due to the war and a European influece manifest in German and European (mostly Jewish) ex patriotes such as Fritz Lang and Otto Rank influenced by World War I (arguably) and manifest in German Expressionism, German Post Expressionism and French Poetic Realism to name a few cinematic movements. The cinematography also facilitated exploration of themes of Existentialism and Psychoanalysis (both academic preoccupations of the post war era. Sartre and Camus in terms of Existentialism and Freud in terms of Psychoanalysis (Jungian film noir never really took off).

Before I really go off on one, does one film fulfil all traits affilaited with film noir from within the classic period, possibly (post-noir, neo-noir, tech-noir and future-noir are a different discussion for a different time).

Sorry this is rather fragmented and I am to drunk to proof read and edit it or check my bookshelf/DVD collection for clarification.

If you want to my mind some archytypal film noirs that tick many of the boxes might I suggest:

Double Indemnity (Wilder: 1944) the detective is not the protagonist, and arguably not a detective, but to my mind a highlight of film noir and certianly the post-war noir movement.

The Big Heat (Lang 1955) a bit lighter than DI, the detective is a cop the madonna/whore dichtomy is crystal clear but with an interesting redemptive aspect and is just a lot of fun.

Killers Kiss (Director an year escape me) utterly brilliant, enough said.

The Postman Always Rings Twice (see above).

Well I am rambling but you mentioned film noir, I have been drinking whisky so the outcome feels some what ineveitable. Basically for me film noir is World War II cinema and perhaps all cinema. Doubt this helps, but hope it does.

edit: also offers an alternitive to the rather tired auteur theory for 70's film critics.

edit 2: Doing a film Masters Degree (for non British people it comes after a Undergraduate Degree).

edit 3: SOme critics argue that film noir is a set of conventions that exist in any number of genres e.g. Film Noir Western (Will add example if I can remember the name of a paticular favourite), Film Noir Melodrama (E.g. Rebecca Hitchcock 1940). The Western of course refuting one of the arguable staples of film noir, the urban setting with all the connotations it carries within film noir).

 

[Fridge]

The last film that I consider film noir is actually my favorite film Blade Runner. Ok its a sci-fi but its very much a film noir as well.

 

[clipse15]

The last film that I consider film noir is actually my favorite film Blade Runner. Ok its a sci-fi but its very much a film noir as well.

Well to get technical, that Tom Cruise/Jamie Foxx movie Colateral is a film-noir.

 

[tigermilk]

I think one of the interesting thing about film-noir is its ambiguity leads to discussions of where the boundareis lie. I think the most interesting recent example I have seen would be of a film with a number of noir conventions would be either 'Brick'(Johnson 2005) or GTA IV.

 

[CrazyMedic]

the maltese falcon was pretty much exactly what you described.

I think one of the interesting thing about film-noir is its ambiguity leads to discussions of where the boundareis lie. I think the most interesting recent example I have seen would be of a film with a number of noir conventions would be either 'Brick'(Johnson 2005) or GTA IV.

wow someone else who has seen brick high five for seeing the best detective movie ever.