Does free will exist?

[Gitsnik]

No. There is no such thing as free will. Free will would suggest that one is able to do anything without consequences or ramifications.

It's late and I'm too sick to process the rest of this post, but that statement is fundamentally wrong - free will is not the ability to do anything without consequence or ramification - it is the ability to know those are the possibilities and do it anyway. Being "completely" free would imply your point, having free will is mine. I choose not to steal from people because I choose not to have to deal with the consequences - other people choose to steal from people because they choose to ignore the consequences.

A slight difference, but a significant one for the debate.

Yes but dealing with the consequences is a factor you take into account when making that choice, please read the rest of my post and you will understand what I'm on about, even if it is insufferably long.

I read the rest of your post, and I still stand by what I said. Yes dealing with the consequences is a factor you take in to account, but free will says you can choose to ignore those potential consequences. I'm not saying free will lets you beat up on randoms or, say, survive jumping into a boiling lake of lava - but it gives you the choice. Look at suicide for an example - an individual can choose to go against (most) human "programming" to destroy themselves before their time.*

My point was, and is, that you are trying to make "true freedom" out to be what "free will" is - the two are different, significantly so, in definition.

You can not beat someone up and expect to get away with it, because two conflicting "free wills" are in place. What you can do is say "I'm going to beat this guy up" and not care that he might beat you back - that is free will. Free action is something completely different and ultimately impossible.

The problem is, when you make a choice you think is your own - what happens if you're in, say, a JigSaw puzzle, you aren't necessarily making the choice you think you are making, you may be making the choice he expects you to.

I'm still a bit hazy on whether we have free will or not, but I am confident in the definition of it:

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

*I say most because as any parent will tell you, jumping in front of a "speeding bullet" to protect your child is more instinct than self preservation is.

 

[ZeroMachine]

It seems like it exists... but it doesn't. It's all cause and effect. Everything we do is a result of something else, and that something else is a result of something else, yada yada...

A much simpler way to put it is, well... fate.

What has happened, has happened.
What is happening, is happening.
What will happen, will happen.

And nothing will change these three fundamental rules of existence. Some may say "well, what if I change my mind?" Well, then that's what will happen.

Some people find this depressing, but I don't mind it. It sure as hell feels like I'm picking and choosing what I do. Plus, I just look at my life as a very, VERY long and very engaging story. Most realistic character development ever

If this sounds weird to anyone, so be it, but it's how I've lived my life for the past four or so years, so I won't be changing anytime soon.

 

[Twilight_guy]

In short, no. If you knew where everything was you could predict where everything would be in the next second. With people, if you knew everything about their history and physiology then you could predict where they would be in a second. My professor in college gave a lecture on this.
Luckily, we have quantum theory which says that its impossible to know what everything is going to do and where it is. Also, quantum particles have a degree of randomness in where they will be so its impossible to say what is going to happen.

 

[JC175]

*snip*

No. The problem with analyzing and predicting something in that way is that you won't actually know what they're about to do, until right before they actually do it. When they've made the conscious choice to do it.

Predictability does not limit free will in any way. At any point in time after they've prepared and begun to do something, they can change their minds and stop doing it if they wish.

It's what's lovely about being human; you are free to do anything you want to.

This doesn't really prove anything at all, but here's an interesting finding - according to tests that have been done on humans by monitoring brain activity, your brain actually begins to prepare and perform an action a couple of milliseconds or so before you actually conciously decide to do it.

I love how many more things there are to find out about the world.

 

[Daniel Cygnus]

I've always thought life to be a giant game of 'The Sims'. I don't think we are in control of our lives. I believe in Destiny...

I've always felt the same way, except that the game has "free will" mode turned on. (It DOES have one of those, right? It's been a while since I've played it.)

 

[darkless]

Well do you believe in destiny? because if so, then by extension you believe that there is no free will.

Me? Well i believe nothing in life is predetermined and thus i do have free will and i do decide what actions i take at any given moment.

 

[PersianLlama]

The notion of free will is a quaint Earthling illusion.

Cookies to whoever gets the reference.

 

[Gitsnik]

The notion of free will is a quaint Earthling illusion.

Cookies to whoever gets the reference.

Something about a house of slaughter maybe

I don't want no cookie.

Carry on.

 

[goodman528]

Free will = being an idiot.

 

[Sparcrypt]

Looking it at logically, nope, doesn't effect free will at all.

Example: you look at all your data and it tells you I'm going to raise my right hand. I raise my right hand. You would not have been able to predict this until after the moment my body established I would do it.

However.. a simple test is if you say to me: you're going to raise your right hand, and I look at you and say "No.. not I am not".... I could have instead chosen to raise my hand, but I did not.

If you tell the sun "Hey mate, you're gonna rise at 6.13 tomorrow morning".. it's still going to do it.

 

[Vigormortis]

A theoretical ability to predict exactly what I might choose to do at any given moment doesn't change the fact that I chose to do it.

True, except that "choice", in the general meaning of the word, really does not exist. What really determines our choices? Chemical reactions within our brains triggered by external stimuli. Saying we have free will implies there's some kind of external force (one free from the bounds of our bodies as well as this universe) that influences our choices. Even if this were true, it means there still isn't really a choice involved, it's just another reaction. I prefer to look at it this way. Free will may just be an illusion in the strictest sense of the word, but the very atoms that determine our actions are the very same atoms that we are made of. So, while we can't actively choose our actions, the simple act of reacting to stimuli is, in a word, a choice. I guess what I'm saying is, it all depends on your definition of "free will".

 

[Agayek]

This doesn't really prove anything at all, but here's an interesting finding - according to tests that have been done on humans by monitoring brain activity, your brain actually begins to prepare and perform an action a couple of milliseconds or so before you actually conciously decide to do it.

I love how many more things there are to find out about the world.

Yea, but if a reason not to do something appears in those couple of milliseconds, depending on reaction times, you might begin the motion and then stop, but you can still stop at any point in time if a reason for it appears.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there's no possible way for there not to be free will because you can choose to do, or not do, something at any point in time, for any arbitrary reason.

Is it possible that there's some force out there we'd call 'Fate' pulling the strings? Sure, it's a possibility, but there's no way to really argue about it. Any example of free will could just be held under the light of "Well, he/she/it/they was meant to do that!".

Regardless of all of that, the fact remains that you can always, without fail, make a choice, and that's the very essence of free will.

 

[JMeganSnow]

So let's just say I had the technology at this very moment to take a snapshot of every function of your body. For example, I can watch the activity of every neuron in your brain, I am monitoring your blood sugar levels and oxygen saturation and everything that could possibly influnce the next thing you decide to do. Assuming I had the capability to interpret all of this data, I would be able to accurately predict your next move, as at a basic level we are all just a system of biological material after all.

So, just for hypothetical purposes, let's just say that I had the magical ability to reach into your mind and control you like a puppet made of meat. Would THAT compromise the idea of free will?

No, because it's bullshit, just like YOUR hypothetical situation.

The existence of free will (human volition, that is) is a "perceptual self-evidency" and axiomatic--we couldn't even be having this discussion without it because it is human volition that makes it *possible* for us to be wrong or right and know the difference. The operation of free will stands at the base of all human knowledge, thought, and thus discussion.

 

[captainwalrus]

The problem of free will and determinism is a false dichotomy. A deterministic world does not preclude the possibility of free will. I define free will as the ability to analyze different courses of action and choose to take a certain course of action based on whatever values you care most about. And though that action may be determined, in that: given the present circumstances (atomic functions, chemical processes, etc) of the world only one course of action may occur, it does not mean that you are incapable of analyzing different paths. You don't know what's going to happen next, despite the world being deterministic.

So this brings us to another definition of free will. Perhaps free will is not the ability to change a deterministic universe, but the ability to conceive of different possibilities given a certain situation and "choose", based on whatever values one holds, a course of action.

For example: I'm at a vending machine deciding between Coke or Sprite. I am determined, given the chemical processes in my brain, to choose Coke. However, I am able to conceive of the possibility of choosing Sprite. I am able to conceive of the consequences of choosing Sprite, instead of Coke. I am able to weigh the costs and benefits of choosing one over the other. And, most importantly, I do not know, initially, what is determined by the world. However, given whatever values I hold more dearly, I ultimately "choose" Coke.

So, then what is "unfreedom", in my philosophy? I suppose the inability to even conceive of any possibilities, except the one determined. Or perhaps, it'd be doing something you really don't want to do. For example, smoking crack, when you're addicted to crack, not because you really want to smoke crack. You can want to stop smoking crack, you want to do something else, but the physical addiction just overwhelms the brain, preventing any sort of circumstantial analyzation.

If you believed in free will you can go up to any random person in the street and stab them. Then you could step away and say, "nope not guilty, it was free will". You would have no reason to stab the man, you just did because you could. Free will suggest you are in control of your actions but you are NOT guided by reasoning and the concept of choice which i will explain shortly.

I think you're wrong. You're saying that free will is essentially pure randomness. If your actions are guided by absolutely nothing, then it's pure luck whether the coin flip in your head comes up "Stab" or "Don't stab". Randomness isn't free will. A random universe is the exact opposite of a determined universe. Without limitations of some sort, then the universe would be purely chaotic (ex: the laws of gravity may stop for no reason or change for no reason).

That's the true dichotomy: Determinism vs. Chaos, not Determinism vs. Free Will.

 

[Aqualung]

I like to think of life as a game developed by Bioware; sure, you can take different paths, lead different lives, be good or bad. But in the end, it's still somewhat linear, and you can never *really* do what you want (e.g. stripping down infront of Washington Monument and singing I'm A Barbie Girl, partially because of social status, partly because it's illegal.) I think free will exists, but it's somewhat linear and predictable. Which makes the Joker that much more interesting- now THERE's free will.

 

[JC175]

So let's just say I had the technology at this very moment to take a snapshot of every function of your body. For example, I can watch the activity of every neuron in your brain, I am monitoring your blood sugar levels and oxygen saturation and everything that could possibly influnce the next thing you decide to do. Assuming I had the capability to interpret all of this data, I would be able to accurately predict your next move, as at a basic level we are all just a system of biological material after all.

So, just for hypothetical purposes, let's just say that I had the magical ability to reach into your mind and control you like a puppet made of meat. Would THAT compromise the idea of free will?

No, because it's bullshit, just like YOUR hypothetical situation.

The existence of free will (human volition, that is) is a "perceptual self-evidency" and axiomatic--we couldn't even be having this discussion without it because it is human volition that makes it *possible* for us to be wrong or right and know the difference. The operation of free will stands at the base of all human knowledge, thought, and thus discussion.

Hey, there's no right and wrong here, we have no way of actually knowing. Personally I believe there is such a thing as free will, but I find it an interesting topic to think about.

And the suggestion there is entirely possible if technology can improve to a certain position. All it is is measuring certain functions and states in the body - sure, it'd be incredibly complex to measure and interpret the exact neural activity occuring within the brain at any moment, but seeing as the brain works completely on electrical pulses it's theoretically possible.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Compatibilist free will exists.
Incompatibilist free will is unintelligible.
Neither is entirely satisfying.

 

[JC175]

Compatibilist free will exists.
Incompatibilist free will is unintelligible.
Neither is entirely satisfying.

Here's someone who knows what they're talking about.

Nice point.

 

[Agayek]

I like to think of life as a game developed by Bioware; sure, you can take different paths, lead different lives, be good or bad. But in the end, it's still somewhat linear, and you can never *really* do what you want (e.g. stripping down infront of Washington Monument and singing I'm A Barbie Girl, partially because of social status, partly because it's illegal.) I think free will exists, but it's somewhat linear and predictable. Which makes the Joker that much more interesting- now THERE's free will.

The problem with this analogy is that you can sing I'm a Barbie Girl before the Washington Monument in the nude. You may be arrested for it, but you can still do it. You can literally do anything you can conceive of. The only thing holding you back is fear of consequences.