Does free will exist?

[Gitsnik]

Good thing women can't masturbate.

They NEED us men to keep em warm at night, AMIRITE?

Oh yeah, too bad electric blankets and dildo's haven't been invented yet.

Where would you be without our sandwhiches?

Starved.

That's what.

There is another case against free will here - the hormonal drive and desire behind men and the desire to have one man take care of her in women (generalisation) are quite strong in a lot of people - their choices might make them still fussy, but ultimately they are heading towards a single goal - partnership and coupling.

There are other aspects of the human "condition" that drive people as well, the want/need to eat, drink, sleep and breath, as well as many of the choices they are driven to make because of these needs.

On the other hand, you can choose not to get laid if you wish, monks do it all of the time - but I can't help but wonder what the monks would do if they thought they (and a couple of females) were the last people on the face of the earth - does the human urge to repopulate and propagate the species overrule their mental choice of being celibate? What of a catholic priest who has a strong belief in his system of faith (no little boy jokes please)?

 

[MoganFreeman]

If free will didn't exist, there would be no justification for punishing people for their actions.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

If free will didn't exist, there would be no justification for punishing people for their actions.

If someone does something that harms someone else or breaks a law (or both I guess) then they should be punished for their actions. Period. If free will exists then they should be punished for making that choice, if free will does not exist then they should be punished a) to attempt to modify the behavior and b) to keep them from doing it again, because they have now proven that they are capable of doing so.

 

[JC175]

To an extent, free will exists, the paths in life are endless, but it not always your choice what path you take.

It all matters on why you do things.

Behavioristo you jack off because it feels good, and you like feeling?
Evolutionisto you jack off because it'll help you become a better lover, and possibly have more seeds
Cognitiveo you jackoff because it feels good man

Existentialist: Should you be asking those questions as a woman

Sorry, couldn't help myself

Haha
I just thought that example would be the easiest/best to understand example for this forum.
I have yet to see another girl here =/

There are a few, you just have to look around. Labyrinth would be one, she's pretty well esteemed around here.

"Women's rights?"
"No, that's more of a man's thing, isn't it? My father's a women's rights activist."
"Not your mum?"
"No, no. Dad wouldn't allow that."

Kudos if anyone gets the reference.

 

[Gerafin]

The big bang started it off...

Particles crashing against each other. Nothing random, everything governed by physical laws.

Particle A strikes Particle B at this angle at this speed. Particle A goes this way. Particle B goes this way.

Gravity. Gravity pulls them together. Planets form.

Again, nothing random. Laws. The only truly trustworthy force on this planet, operating on such a small scale that we cannot comprehend how they truly work. Physical laws determine EXACTLY what happens. To everything. You can use these laws to predict how a car will go down a ramp. You can use them to predict what will happen when a plane crashes. Complex physical laws are being used to simulate climate change and other natural events. Chemical laws, electrical laws, physical laws, laws of gravitation... all of these laws affect each and every particle in existence, in completely predictable ways. There is no room for electrical signals to take a different path - there is no room for their freedom. WE are NO EXCEPTION.

The big bang shot out these particles, and they're still moving, still bouncing against each other. The conditions were set, and now the particles are playing out their parts according to these basic laws...

My arm shoots out of the big bang and my fingers wrap around a can. Signals from my head fly out of the past, electric signals bounced around the universe that now run from my head into my arm, telling it to pick up the can. Signals that are transmitted by particles. Particles that were set in motion by an event so massive we can still hear the echoes today. Particles that followed very specific laws in order to reach my head, and particles that followed very specific laws to transmit that signal to my arm. My brain didn't decide to pick up the can. The particles just happened to be moving in that direction.


The understanding of these laws has led to incredible technological achievements... but we're just basic molecular structures, too. Mostly water, really.

Build me a computer powerful enough to map out every atom in this universe. Then, write a program that would teach it exactly how each one of those particles reacts with the others. Then tell it which way they're moving now.

Hit play.

I know where you'll be in 12 years. I know when the Earth will end. I know whether or not I'm going to drink this can of Monster. I know everything.

Everything.

Right-oh. I'm going to shut up now. Yes, I drank the Monster, how did you guess?

 

[Ignignoct]

The big bang started it off...

Particles crashing against each other. Nothing random, everything governed by physical laws.

Particle A strikes Particle B at this angle at this speed. Particle A goes this way. Particle B goes this way.

Gravity. Gravity pulls them together. Planets form.

Again, nothing random. Laws. The only truly trustworthy force on this planet, operating on such a small scale that we cannot comprehend how they truly work. Physical laws determine EXACTLY what happens. To everything. You can use these laws to predict how a car will go down a ramp. You can use them to predict what will happen when a plane crashes. Complex physical laws are being used to simulate climate change and other natural events. Chemical laws, electrical laws, physical laws, laws of gravitation... all of these laws affect each and every particle in existence, in completely predictable ways. There is no room for electrical signals to take a different path - there is no room for their freedom. WE are NO EXCEPTION.

The big bang shot out these particles, and they're still moving, still bouncing against each other. The conditions were set, and now the particles are playing out their parts according to these basic laws...

My arm shoots out of the big bang and my fingers wrap around a can. Signals from my head fly out of the past, electric signals bounced around the universe that now run from my head into my arm, telling it to pick up the can. Signals that are transmitted by particles. Particles that were set in motion by an event so massive we can still hear the echoes today. Particles that followed very specific laws in order to reach my head, and particles that followed very specific laws to transmit that signal to my arm. My brain didn't decide to pick up the can. The particles just happened to be moving in that direction.


The understanding of these laws has led to incredible technological achievements... but we're just basic molecular structures, too. Mostly water, really.

Build me a computer powerful enough to map out every atom in this universe. Then, write a program that would teach it exactly how each one of those particles reacts with the others. Then tell it which way they're moving now.

Hit play.

I know where you'll be in 12 years. I know when the Earth will end. I know whether or not I'm going to drink this can of Monster. I know everything.

Everything.

Right-oh. I'm going to shut up now. Yes, I drank the Monster, how did you guess?

So again, for all practical reasons that one might apply to living day to day...

Free Will is painfully obvious and necessary.

Don't drink the Monster! YOUR GENERATION IS BEING MARKETED TO AND SOLD SUGAR, WATER AND CAFFEINE WITH A TRENDY MARKETING CAMPAIGN! Don't feed your own predators!

Just buy the B-vitamin and caffeine pills for 10 cents a pop and have yourself a ball.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

I've got a bone to pick.

From whence did the idea come that nerves in the central or peripheral nervous system carry electricity? I've heard people saying it here, and elsewhere. They do not. They conduct a wave of depolarization. Not the same thing. AT all.

Anyone know where this is coming from?

 

[JC175]

I've got a bone to pick.

From whence did the idea come that nerves in the central or peripheral nervous system carry electricity? I've heard people saying it here, and elsewhere. They do not. They conduct a wave of depolarization. Not the same thing. AT all.

Anyone know where this is coming from?

Well the correct term for a nerve inpulse is "a self generating wave of electrochemical activity", I just refer to is as an electrical pulse so I don't confuse anybody.

 

[Gerafin]

I've got a bone to pick.

From whence did the idea come that nerves in the central or peripheral nervous system carry electricity? I've heard people saying it here, and elsewhere. They do not. They conduct a wave of depolarization. Not the same thing. AT all.

Anyone know where this is coming from?

Right-o, and I just got done with AP Bio... I actually learned about that. Don't tell my teacher.

I think it was the original idea from the medical community, and it stuck. A bunch of concentration gradients doing the wave is a harder concept for most people to grasp, and since most people don't know what electricity is anyways, the attitude is "why not?"

 

[Deadman Walkin]

I am not sure I understand what point you are trying to prove. At least in my opinion, i believe that prediction of action does not mean loss of free will. If you could monitor our brains neurons, you could probably make a fairly accurate prediction on what we are thinking.

If you can make an accurate prediction, then you can probably tell what we plan on doing, but I fail to see how it compromises free will. It would take not nearly a second to completely change how I wanted to live, whether I want to slaughter hundreds of people, or cure diseases with my own two hands. That means I have a choice in what I plan on doing.

 

[300ccs of medicine]

I've got a bone to pick.

From whence did the idea come that nerves in the central or peripheral nervous system carry electricity? I've heard people saying it here, and elsewhere. They do not. They conduct a wave of depolarization. Not the same thing. AT all.

Anyone know where this is coming from?

Right-o, and I just got done with AP Bio... I actually learned about that. Don't tell my teacher.

I think it was the original idea from the medical community, and it stuck. A bunch of concentration gradients doing the wave is a harder concept for most people to grasp, and since most people don't know what electricity is anyways, the attitude is "why not?"

Well, if high school is teaching it right then it's probably people making the idea simpler in their minds then it really is. When I need to explain in laymans terms, I usually say "signal" which is correct but understated. The "signal" travels down the nerve to the end-organ and tells to do or to stop not doing something, is usually simple enough. No need to explain myelination, synapses, sensory vs motor, orders, and upper vs lower just to say "it's broken".

Thanks though.

 

[Samoftherocks]

You might be thinking I'm crazy at this point. "Of course free will exists," you say, "only I am in control of my actions." So let me outline this with a small analogy.

Right now, simply by using a website like this [http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/sunrise.html] I can discover the exact time that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. For example, tomorrow morning in Sydney, Australia, the sun will rise at exactly 6:13am, no earlier, no later. The point I'm trying to make here is that an event, such as the rising of the sun, is totally predictable by analysis of avaliable data like time of year, latitude and longditude, etc.

So let's just say I had the technology at this very moment to take a snapshot of every function of your body. For example, I can watch the activity of every neuron in your brain, I am monitoring your blood sugar levels and oxygen saturation and everything that could possibly influnce the next thing you decide to do. Assuming I had the capability to interpret all of this data, I would be able to accurately predict your next move, as at a basic level we are all just a system of biological material after all.

So does this compromise the notion of free will? Discuss.

EDIT: Generalising a little here, but if you don't believe in free will you're most likely a determinist, that is, you believe that all actions are pre-planned or set, and that life is merely an illusion of choice.

EDIT II: This has nothing to do with the control of a higher body, it's purely about free will as a concept.

Your hypothesis supposes that the human brain has direct and total effect on these functions at a CONSCIOUS level. By your statements, yes, it compromises our free will. HOWEVER, you cannot predict a complex system such as "free will" simply viewing the reaction that our bodies would have to something so random as the chemical make up of the air we breathe at any given moment.

Your second edit fully negates all of your previously stated examples. You would have been better off asking, "Do you believe in fate?"

"Choosing" to allow these basic functions to operate our bodies as they do, we as humans can allow ourselves free use of the applicable benefits of these functions, thusly enhancing our ability to direct our bodies at will. This is all according to the sum of our desires. Encumbered as we might be by the mandates of our respective social constructs, it is our consistantly updating analysis of our reactions to social stimuli which dictates our behavior in the face of future events.

It is not impossible that each of us has the ability to overwhelm our own nature and free ourselves from traditional restraints (phobias, etc.), but the liklihood of any given success lies beyond the realm of possibility (greater than almost the entirety of the populace), because why do we NEED to be that different?

My answer: we don't, because no one's gonna give a damn anyway...

 

[JC175]

Your second edit fully negates all of your previously stated examples. You would have been better off asking, "Do you believe in fate?"

The point was to consider the issue without getting into the realm of puppetmasters pulling strings and such, although I see what you mean here. Most of the time if you see a question about free will, you assume that the opposing sides are free will, and being controlled by a higher being...gahh. My head hurts.

 

[Samoftherocks]

Your second edit fully negates all of your previously stated examples. You would have been better off asking, "Do you believe in fate?"

The point was to consider the issue without getting into the realm of puppetmasters pulling strings and such, although I see what you mean here. Most of the time if you see a question about free will, you assume that the opposing sides are free will, and being controlled by a higher being...gahh. My head hurts.

Oh, I understood what was being asked. It's just that the opening statements (pre-edits) all spoke of functions that would have been difficult for a single-celled organism to comprehend. Not us. We're top o' the chain, baby! We can breathe in our sleep! The author skipped a few layers of consciousness to get to his point. That's all.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

I've always thought life to be a giant game of 'The Sims'. I don't think we are in control of our lives. I believe in Destiny...

This idea makes me intensely uncomfortable.

Not a fan of the "Somebody's going to delete all the doors, speed up time and make you starve to death" idea, eh? Can't say I am, either.

I've got a bone to pick.

From whence did the idea come that nerves in the central or peripheral nervous system carry electricity? I've heard people saying it here, and elsewhere. They do not. They conduct a wave of depolarization. Not the same thing. AT all.

Anyone know where this is coming from?

My guess? Lazy science teachers that don't feel like explaining the difference between depolarization and electricity. I know most of my teachers called it electricity, as such.

 

[Gitsnik]

My guess? Lazy science teachers that don't feel like explaining the difference between depolarization and electricity. I know most of my teachers called it electricity, as such.

That and it is infinitely easier to 'visualise' electricity flowing along the body.