Does free will exist?

[JC175]

You might be thinking I'm crazy at this point. "Of course free will exists," you say, "only I am in control of my actions." So let me outline this with a small analogy.

Right now, simply by using a website like this [http://www.srrb.noaa.gov/highlights/sunrise/sunrise.html] I can discover the exact time that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. For example, tomorrow morning in Sydney, Australia, the sun will rise at exactly 6:13am, no earlier, no later. The point I'm trying to make here is that an event, such as the rising of the sun, is totally predictable by analysis of avaliable data like time of year, latitude and longditude, etc.

So let's just say I had the technology at this very moment to take a snapshot of every function of your body. For example, I can watch the activity of every neuron in your brain, I am monitoring your blood sugar levels and oxygen saturation and everything that could possibly influnce the next thing you decide to do. Assuming I had the capability to interpret all of this data, I would be able to accurately predict your next move, as at a basic level we are all just a system of biological material after all.

So does this compromise the notion of free will? Discuss.

EDIT: Generalising a little here, but if you don't believe in free will you're most likely a determinist, that is, you believe that all actions are pre-planned or set, and that life is merely an illusion of choice.

EDIT II: This has nothing to do with the control of a higher body, it's purely about free will as a concept.

 

[FROGGEman2]

hmmm... did you include influences in that? well even if you did, I think so. We have never known anything other than "free will", so I imagine that it would still apply. you get extra points for being Australian and a Sydneysider.

 

[Incompl te]

I've always thought life to be a giant game of 'The Sims'. I don't think we are in control of our lives. I believe in Destiny...

 

[NeutralDrow]

We have to believe in free will. We have no choice.

 

[Bored Tomatoe]

Who cares, if it does: Great! I can do whatever I want! If it doesn't: Great, I will probably be doing what I was planning on doing!

 

[JC175]

We have to believe in free will. We have no choice.

Here, I award the "irony points" prize.

 

[Darth Mad]

I dont think that even if you could take a snapshot of every function of my body you would be able to predict my movement, not before they are done.

Beside, behind able to predict something as nothing to do with free will. You could, let say its possible, predict my movement, but you would have no influence over my actions, they would still be mines.

 

[JC175]

I've always thought life to be a giant game of 'The Sims'. I don't think we are in control of our lives. I believe in Destiny...

This idea makes me intensely uncomfortable.

I've been known to have a phobia regarding knee high fences.

 

[NeutralDrow]

We have to believe in free will. We have no choice.

Here, I award the "irony points" prize.

Yes!

Now, I just need to sweep the sarcasm competition (like that's gonna happen), the pun sweepstakes (I may have already won!), and the world will be mine!

 

[bodyklok]

Well everything is sorta pre ordained... but hey who cares?

 

[Altar]

Freewill... Maybe, maybe not... for example... let's just say there was this person named John... he's nice, friendly and what not... One day he's walking down the street when he spots someone dropping their wallet... now he has a couple of options...

A.Ignore the wallet
B.Take the wallet
C.Return the wallet

but being the nice person he is... he returns the wallet to the person... so he really had no choice in what he was gonna do... so overall in my opinion we don't have as much free will as we believe

 

[Jadak]

A theoretical ability to predict exactly what I might choose to do at any given moment doesn't change the fact that I chose to do it.

 

[Knight Templar]

There is always a choice, one option will allways be easer than the others but I still decide what I do.

 

[Knight Templar]

Freewill... Maybe, maybe not... for example... let's just say there was this person named John... he's nice, friendly and what not... One day he's walking down the street when he spots someone dropping their wallet... now he has a couple of options...

A.Ignore the wallet
B.Take the wallet
C.Return the wallet

but being the nice person he is... he returns the wallet to the person... so he really had no choice in what he was gonna do... so overall in my opinion we don't have as much free will as we believe

Just because you can quess somebodys action doesn't degrade the fact they decided to perform that action.

EDIT: Blast, forgot to edit this into the above post.

 

[Gitsnik]

It's possible, but I'd like to think I keep my actions and thoughts chaotic enough that they're nearly impossible to predict.

Ironically, this actually makes your next action easier to predict - not as easy as if you weren't being chaotic, but nevertheless easier - because you are intentionally trying to be chaotic the rational move won't be the one you make, thus the elimination of the possibility.

Back to the topic:

I've been doing a lot of work and research in the AI field - (Edit: As well as...) discussing with priests and regular scientists what constitutes a human being (A soul is the main one from both sides, love is the main constitution of a soul - but dogs love... so do they have souls as well? Anyway) and it also ties into the theological discussion of "Predestination".

A thought for you:

That tree you just stepped around because it was in your way, was only in your way because way back when these sorts of things came into existence (through $DEITY or other universal creation moment) everything has been falling and rotating and moving based on definable laws - those of physics. That seed fell into that spot and grew into that tree which caused you to move around it (you did choose to walk around the big tree that would not move out of your way didn't you) because the tree before it fell into that spot and so on. Even humans plant trees in certain areas because they will catch the sun, or not or for whatever the reason.

My basic point here is that everything you do, even if you *choose* to do it, is influenced and affected and, well, chosen for you, by the environment and actions around you. Even ones attitude and mannerisms are ingrained from birth (or by birth - the whole nature vs nurture debate strikes again) and influence your decisions. If an AI can talk to you and "choose" with some randomness whenever it wants to do something, what makes it different to a human - wherein is the definition of a soul. Destiny or not, something affects us strongly each time we make a decision. Even time affected my choice of this thread and this post for my 666th post - the time I have left before I knock off for the day.

Personally, I can't answer either way whether free will exists or not - I tend to think that if I can think about it that is an indicator of it, but then I see some people who just go about the same thing day after day after day and I question. I also think about all the possibilities for predestination - an example of which I just outlined - and I question even harder.

Then again, maybe the questioning is the proof - I don't think I've ever seen a dog question. Though I have seen them look up with those big brown eyes and a look of why in their face, and I know cats will only do what they want (until they've figured out I won't feed them pet or not if they don't come when I call ). Again, does a dog have a soul, or free will.

Watch while my head explodes!

Cheers

 

[JC175]

It's possible, but I'd like to think I keep my actions and thoughts chaotic enough that they're nearly impossible to predict.

Ironically, this actually makes your next action easier to predict - not as easy as if you weren't being chaotic, but nevertheless easier - because you are intentionally trying to be chaotic the rational move won't be the one you make, thus the elimination of the possibility.

Back to the topic:

I've been doing a lot of work and research in the AI field - discussing with priests and regular scientists what constitutes a human being (A soul is the main one from both sides, love is the main constitution of a soul - but dogs love... so do they have souls as well? Anyway) and it also ties into the theological discussion of "Predestination".

A thought for you:

That tree you just stepped around because it was in your way, was only in your way because way back when these sorts of things came into existence (through $DEITY or other universal creation moment) everything has been falling and rotating and moving based on definable laws - those of physics. That seed fell into that spot and grew into that tree which caused you to move around it (you did choose to walk around the big tree that would not move out of your way didn't you) because the tree before it fell into that spot and so on. Even humans plant trees in certain areas because they will catch the sun, or not or for whatever the reason.

My basic point here is that everything you do, even if you *choose* to do it, is influenced and affected and, well, chosen for you, by the environment and actions around you. Even ones attitude and mannerisms are ingrained from birth (or by birth - the whole nature vs nurture debate strikes again) and influence your decisions. If an AI can talk to you and "choose" with some randomness whenever it wants to do something, what makes it different to a human - wherein is the definition of a soul. Destiny or not, something affects us strongly each time we make a decision. Even time affected my choice of this thread and this post for my 666th post - the time I have left before I knock off for the day.

Personally, I can't answer either way whether free will exists or not - I tend to think that if I can think about it that is an indicator of it, but then I see some people who just go about the same thing day after day after day and I question. I also think about all the possibilities for predestination - an example of which I just outlined - and I question even harder.

Then again, maybe the questioning is the proof - I don't think I've ever seen a dog question. Though I have seen them look up with those big brown eyes and a look of why in their face, and I know cats will only do what they want (until they've figured out I won't feed them pet or not if they don't come when I call ). Again, does a dog have a soul, or free will.

Watch while my head explodes!

Cheers

Good points, what you're talking about is a causal chain. Every event has a causal event, and that event has a causal event, and so on until infinity. There are so many preexisting factors that have a huge impact upon the decisions you make.

Oh, and if you want head explosion material, look up a little theory called the Copenhagen Interpretation.

 

[Mayonegg]

I was recently told this idea about a couple of weeks ago. I found it quite distasteful that I initially kept arguing against it even though I my arguments were knocked down one by one. Eventually I just choice to believe against it anyway, even though I had no proff (call my religion, if you like).

The idea being that are person with infinite intellectual capacity (and memory) could theoretically attain my exact next decision based on birth parents, nuturing, education, eating habits, body language and past behaviour etc.

And if said person truly has infinite power then he could know everyone's next move. If he knows everyone's next move, he could, theoretically, map out the next 100 years (disregarding crazy events like aliens visiting). Similar to a game of chess, if you know how both players play precisely, you can map out the entire game.

Of course, because of the brain/computing power required, the theory will will remain just that, and is interesting but ultimately meaningless.