Does free will exist?

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nobleee

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Oct 23, 2011
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Twilight_guy said:
nobleee said:
Twilight_guy said:
nobleee said:
Twilight_guy said:
Depends on if you believe in quantum theory. If you don't then everything is deterministic and nothing can be free will, if you do then there is inherently some randomness in the universe and thus some room for choice.
Wait what? QFT can be experimentally tested, quite easily, so the 'not believe in it'-option really does not apply. As I explained before, it all falls down to how you choose to interpret it.
Theories can always be wrong, lots of good theories that could easily be "proven" have been proven wrong. Someone could believe that quantum theory is wrong and since it's not a law they could be right. Probably not, but they could be.
Well, first I believe you mix up the expressions "scientific theorem", "theorem" and "law". To fill you in, a scientific theorem is what we consider to be a law (i.e. a law of physics), a theorem is an educated guess. Above, the word "theorem" is meant as "scientific theorem". Other than that, you are right in the sense that we cannot actually be sure that we know anything about anything, but such a view is not very pragmatic. This since then we can no longer assume that the chair you are most likely sitting on will not randomly disappear.

Edit: Just noticed Supertask was quicker than me to explain this, to him or her: well done
Maybe I messed up the terms, science tends to be anal that way. I'm just saying that its possible that free will doesn't exists because there is a small chance the universe is deterministic. It's not a practical view but scientists must always be open tot he possibility of being wrong or they risk manipulating science to achieve there own prejudiced ends and that's a big no-no.
Twilight_guy said:
Supertask said:
Twilight_guy said:
Someone could believe that quantum theory is wrong and since it's not a law they could be right. Probably not, but they could be.
Incorrect use of scientific terminology. The word "Theory" in science does not convey doubt like it does in casual conversation, scientific theories are very well supported - gravity is a theory. A scientific law is based on a single observation whereas a theory is based on many observations, that is the distinction, it is not based at all on levels of certainty. The scientific word for what casual conversation would call a theory is a "hypothesis".
Yes, I know that. Let me demonstrate by example before you pedantically reply again.
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famous-scientific-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong.php
Numerous scientific theories with strong evidence to support them and many proved hypothesis have in fact b...of any scientific community faster then you can bat an eye. The moral of the story: science is not about absolutes about best explanations. Think about that the next time you post your canned explanation of how a the word theory differs in its meaning between every day use and scientific use.
Very true indeed. And I apologise for assuming the misuse of the words. However, at some point I still would argue that believing that nothing is certain is not very pragmatic, some things we assume to be true until proven otherwise. However, as you point out, there is of course the chance that it is not true, that chance there always is, but thinking much about it in real life is not very pragmatic.

//nobleee

Edit: As you say, of course as a scientist one is always open for the chance of a theorem not to be true. In fact, most physicists I know rather embrace it.
 

Phindin

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Mar 11, 2009
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Saippua said:
Theres nothing in human brain that can break the universal law of cause and effect. To have free will is to have an effect without a cause. We dont make choices we make decisions based on data thus there is cause and effect.
This is exactly right.

So you made the choice to come to this thread. Okay. That choice was dictated from where? Your brain. What is your brain? It's stuff. It's some seriously complicated stuff, but it's still just stuff. You make decisions. Right. The you making these decisions is your self, your consciousness--ultimately, your brain. Again, your brain is stuff. It is influenced by DNA, by experiences, conditions, etc. Choice comes from the mechanics of your brain. If you believe in true free will, then you basically believe that the human brain transcends normal existence. But it doesn't, does it? It's made of the same kind of matter as everything in the universe. It's a unique, highly effective and complicated arrangement of matter, but it isn't transcendent.
 

Supertask

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Oct 23, 2011
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Twilight_guy said:
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famous-scientific-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong.php
Numerous scientific theories with strong evidence to support them and many proved hypothesis have in fact been wrong.
While it is true that science advances by refuting previous ideas, all of these "theories" were weak to begin with. Most of them were not even real theories by scientific standards. Phrenology was never backed up by hard evidence and Spontaneous Generation, Phlogiston and Aether all date back to a largely pre-scientific age - and all fell when exposed to scientific scrutiny. Blank Slate was always a philosophical and never a scientific theory and Cold Fusion was a single experiment (which was never replicated), performed by individuals unqualified in the relevant field, that merely created a media fanfare (not really a hard thing to do).
 

TheRealLasor

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Jan 15, 2011
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Arguably, no. I do not have the free will to fly, nor do I have the free will to walk through walls.

But that's merely a definition type of thing.

I think that, within the laws of physics, free will of end exists, but free will of means does not.
 

MaxwellEdison

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Sep 30, 2010
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Nope. The movement of everything that makes up the mind is deterministic, why would the mind not be as well?
 

nobleee

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Oct 23, 2011
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MaxwellEdison said:
Nope. The movement of everything that makes up the mind is deterministic, why would the mind not be as well?
But that movement might not be deterministic, basically read the posts above you.
 

Daverson

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Nov 17, 2009
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Quantum mechanics says it's impossible to accurately mathematically predict the future (and even if you could, by doing so you'd inevitably change the result). When you add Chaos theory to this, you'll find it's all but impossible to predict the future at all.

Sure, you can say "tomorrow it'll rain" with a degree of certainty, but you can't say exactly where the raindrops will fall. When dealing with complex systems such as the human brain, knowing where the raindrops will fall could mean the difference between a decision that gets you killed and one that doesn't.

Until we fully understand the brain, it's not possible to say what degree of freedom our concious minds possess over our actions, but I can tell with as much certainty as humanly possible that destiny does not exist.
 

Supertask

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nobleee said:
MaxwellEdison said:
Nope. The movement of everything that makes up the mind is deterministic, why would the mind not be as well?
But that movement might not be deterministic, basically read the posts above you.
But so what if it is partially random? In what way does that make us anymore free?
 

The Heik

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Oct 12, 2008
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Spectral Dragon said:
A thought struck me while reading the replies on the thread about what makes us human. A few mentioned free will. But lately I've been wondering if that really exists.

Considering biology, society, language and history affect all of us, do we really have free will as such, or are we governed by everything around us? After all, we can choose not to eat, for a time, but eventually have to if we want to survive. And then it's our body that decides if we want something spicy, sweet etc.

What's your take on this? Do we have free will at all or just the illusion of choice?

(Yes, I realise this thread's been done before, but not for quite some time. This thread again, but with new opinions, hopefully.)
Well the fact that you're questioning whether or not free will exists is effectively proof of free will, as without it the question would never have arisen.
 

neurohazzard

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I believe we have free will, though admittedly having no way to prove it. However, I believe free will is something we have to choose to use, and a lot of the time we default back to determinism.
 

willsham45

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Apr 14, 2009
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I think I like to think we do but I think we are all conditioned to the point it is not our free will.

Yes we can choose what we do and when but how much free will do we have we get given a choice of A, B or C in some form or another.
Is it your choice to go to work to earn money to live or to go to school if you are of that age, no That decision was made for you. You can choose what to do but only to the point of what is available and what is wanted.

When the choice is work, go on benefits or starve you cannot go for D, none of the above I am going to go live off the land. That one falls apart when you are forced to pay taxes and dines with money you have not got.

You do not have any free will as much as I do, if you boil everything down you are doing something for someone else and any real decision is probably made for you, whether that decision is made because of a request, backed up by research it is rarely your decision or even if it is not it will always be limited.
 

MaxwellEdison

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Sep 30, 2010
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nobleee said:
MaxwellEdison said:
Nope. The movement of everything that makes up the mind is deterministic, why would the mind not be as well?
But that movement might not be deterministic, basically read the posts above you.
I'd rather not sort through a thread of statements, perhaps you could tell me your opinion?
The fact is, we don't control these movements. Freewill cannot exist if that's true.
 

Sniperyeti

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Mar 28, 2010
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I'm a follower of determinism, but I believe we need to act as if we have free will otherwise the structure of human society will fall apart.

neurohazzard said:
I believe we have free will, though admittedly having no way to prove it. However, I believe free will is something we have to choose to use, and a lot of the time we default back to determinism.
I'm pretty sure the arguments of hardline free will and hardline determinism are mutually exclusive. You can't 'fall back' on determinism - if it is the correct theory then all actions are governed by what has already occurred, and free will is impossible.


Edit: Annoying how many people come to a post about a philisophical question just to say 'it doesn't matter'.
 

Valagetti

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Aug 20, 2010
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Just a paper I wrote very brielfy...




How free are we?
Question one.
Freewill is the ability to make a decision that is not determined by prior causes. Though can our decision be decided before the following action? If true, does this mean we have no freewill?
Premise one: If an action is predictable, it is not freely made.
Premise two: In principal, all human decisions are predictable in advance.
Conclusion: There is no freewill.
If a sufficiently knowledgeable scientist can predict our pending actions, does it mean we have no freewill? Freewill is defined by making a decision, which is not bound by earlier constraints. We cannot freely choose our decisions because, they are bound by earlier causes.
The earlier cause/s that may make a decision possible to predict is on a subconscious level. Our subconscious could be controlling our actions. At the same time we have no freewill and we are indirectly controlling our decisions. If a thought is chronologically placed, subconscious before conscious, we have no control over our actions. If our subconscious can create decisions, why can?t it refuse a decision, before turning it into a conscious decision? If this is true, why do we need to be conscious, if our subconscious creates, controls and decides our actions? We do not need to be aware of anything, if we consciously have no say in what goes on. Though simply, our consciousness too has a conscience. We can deny an action that our subconscious has presented to us, consciously. This is called this self-control.
Can another individual predict my actions, if the individual can, does this mean I have no freewill? The paradox called self-control, makes premise one false. Yes freewill is defined by a choice that is not bound by earlier constraints, but we can easily deny the earlier constraints, by using self-control. If a scientist has the technology and knowledge to predict my future actions, this does not mean we have no freewill. Scientists can predict simple, easy and limited actions like, having the option to pick up a small block, a large block or to simply touch a block. This is done by observing the subject?s brain activity with an f.M.R.I. machine (functional magnetic resonance imaging). The f.M.R.I. machine shows brain activity before the action presently occurs, which could signal subconscious thoughts. This is how scientists are able to predict these simple and limited actions. However this test is intended for research for controlling prosthetic limbs. They will not research further to what will happen if the subject begins to think about an action and then stop. Will the f.M.R.I. machine and scientist be able to predict the cease of the action? Even if the scientist and the f.M.R.I. machine are able to predict the cease of the action, it does not mean we have no freewill. As in, there is a difference between predicting actions and determining our actions are bound by prior causes.
Premise two states, in principal, all human decisions are predictable in advance. Today?s technology forces this premise to be false. Science can predict limited and simple actions, like which cube the subject will pick up. Science right now cannot predict real life situations, without prior information, like statistical data on previous relevant actions. For example, if someone was attempting to predict how James would get to university on Wednesday. After watching how James got to university three times consecutively, they discovered on all three Wednesdays, he biked to university. Assuming that on the fourth Wednesday, James would again bike to university. If James did bike to university on the fourth Wednesday, the assumption was correct. Alternatively if James did not bike to university, the assumption was incorrect. There are too many variables that could cause this prediction to be either correct or false. From simple environmental variables like, James? bike had a puncture or he was sick on Wednesday. Even if scientists observed James for several years, they would not be able to predict accurately, how James would get to university on the fourth Wednesday. This is where the Butterfly effect comes into play. If James catches the flu by being sneezed on, he may or may not bike to university, on the fourth Wednesday. The individual, who sneezed on James, could have alternatively not even sneeze on James, to not ever be in the same country as James. There could be billions of variables that could possibly lead to James being sneezed on. And in saying this, James could have caught the flu in other ways. He still may bike to university, if he has the flu, due to earlier causes.
Can another individual predict my future actions and if so, does it mean I have no freewill? The conclusion relates to the end of that question. There is no freewill. So far premise one and two have been proved false. Premise one is false because, there is a difference between predicting future actions and proving freewill doesn?t exist. Our subconscious mind may catalyse our thoughts, but our conscious state can deny the thought and not follow up with the action. Premise two is too false, due to being near infinite variables that are going to play a role in the desired action, in order to predict. And accounting for every variable and calculating it into the other practically infinite other variables, is impossible to do with today?s technology. Freewill is defined by, choice that is not bound by earlier causes. Earlier causes can influence our actions, possibly give us new information and change our previous intended action. Or earlier causes can even hinder our number of choices, making some actions impossible to do. As long the earlier causes do not affect our number of causes to less than two.
An obvious exception or objection is that, there will be no freewill if there is only one outcome. Even if we have multiple decisions, but all of them will conclude with the same outcome and then there is no freewill. If we can choose one of the outcomes, without earlier constraints, we have freewill. Though, we are not free from reality. If so, it doesn?t matter how many decisions we can choose from, if they all end the same. We all have a limited grasp on our surroundings. We can control ourselves, our actions and decisions. But this doesn?t mean we have freewill. The outcome of the decision proves whether we have freewill or not. If our intentions are fulfilled by the outcome of the event, then we have freewill. Clearly this is not as simple as it sounds. Some of our intentions are fulfilled by the outcome and others are not. Freewill is limited by the constraints of reality. We cannot jump sixty feet high, but if a human tries, they will fail, due to gravity. The individual intended to jump sixty feet high, failed, due to his environment. Our freewill is limited according to the rules of nature. So there are many factors that can hinder our freewill. Not just the laws of nature, other individuals and yourself, can limit the extent of freewill. Our choices are free, if the conclusion is what you intended happens. If the same individual intends to jump four feet high and succeeds, he has freewill in that case. But a wheelchair bound cripple attempts to jump four feet high and fails, due to his frail body; he has no free will in that case. Freewill is subjective. There is no freewill. This statement is false. There is freewill. This statement is incomplete. Some actions we can do and others we cannot. Which leads either to the conclusion being fulfilled, by the intentions, or not.
In conclusion, both premises are false, while the conclusion is inaccurate, therefore false. At the same time freewill is not always in the grasp of an individual. None of us have absolute freewill. Our actions are constrained by the laws of nature. A sufficiently knowledgeable scientist can predict some simple and limited actions, but not all actions. Actions can be accurately estimated; this is done by prior information of the individual?s actions, but this is not a prediction, it is estimation.
If the action is accurately predicted, the action is still chosen freely. But it doesn?t mean, actions that are accurately predicted are all chosen freely. While actions that are unpredictable are chosen freely and unfreely.
 

A.A.K

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Mar 7, 2009
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I personally think we do have free will - without question - although we are weak willed or refuse to stretch or push the boundaries of what we wish, love, desire or will for.

The main reason why I think society is now built off the fear of death.