Does sexist tropes in video games influence behavior? Violence =/= Sexism?
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The problem is that you can not balance a scale by putting weights on one side and never checking the other side. "Checking the other side" is "what about the menz". You can not reach equality by ignoring the other half of the population.Skatologist said:
No, Sexism is something that existed long before the invention of video games and continues to exists due to society's increasing apathy to women's issues. Blaming bad behavior on video games is akin to blaming television for making children violent, or literature for making people violent: it's a scapegoat and nothing more.
I did read your post. You obviously didn't read mine. Or if you did, you thought that I was saying something else entirely. I didn't express any kind of black & white view. Hell, I've not even argue or said that media doesn't have an influencing affect; I would say the opposite is true, which is something I agree with you and others on. What I'm arguing against is the absurd "it won't make you sexist, but..." claim that you and others like to thrown around a lot. Thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions alone can still make someone prejudiced even if that person doesn't commit a prejudiced act against another person. For someone accusing me and others of having a black and white view of things, you and others ironically do the same thing of arguing and making statements that such beliefs, notions, and perceptions are bad, reinforcing them is bad, and therefore we need to stop them. Very black and white right there.Shanicus said:
You're right on one part. Videogames are a scapegoat and nothing more. However you're wrong on the part where you mention Society is becoming increasingly apathetic toward woman's issues. This isn't your fault for thinking this though. It's the same situation as if you were to watch the News today, say as opposed to the news 20 years ago..VVThoughtBox said:
Watching the news today would leave you to believe that Society is becoming increasingly more violent...yet Violence has been steadily declining for the last 20 years and is increasingly doing so...
Listening to the people decrying sexism in our society at the moment,would lead you to believe that Society is more sexist, and women are in more danger than ever before... Yet things have never been better for women, than they have been today...Women make more and more strides to equality all the time.. if anything we are far closer to gender equality today, than we were 20 years ago as well...
Borderlands 2: Lilith.erttheking said:
Tattooed with unconventional hairstyle.
Athletic build, with torn and worn clothing.
Dragon Age: Flemeth
She's an old woman.
Whilst due to her age she lacks physical strength, it's definitely not like she isn't an incredibly powerful woman.
Left 4 Dead 2: Rochelle
Being black, she's technically considered "Unconventional". While it's not really something I'd class her as, it is definitely the case that society doesn't regard black women as "Conventionally attractive".
Athletic build, capable of using weapons and physical strength to defeat undead creatures of larger sizes and body types, thus is clearly physically capable.
Athletic build? Her arms are noodles and her waste line couldn't get much thinner!The Lunatic said:
http://desktopwallpapers.biz/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lilith--Borderlands-Cool-HD.jpg
And since when do tattoos and unusual hairstyles make one unattractive? Ok in hindsight I probably shouldn't have used the word conventional. I should've just said attractive.
I have to say even Flemeth isn't exactly that bad looking. Sure her face is a little sunken, but hardly that bad. Still she does count I will give you that. Though can I point out my disappointment that in a game with a cast as massive as Dragon Age Origin's, you could only point out one character?
...Gonna ignore the race comment. I don't care if she mows down hoards of the undead, twelve year old girls can swing cars around in some stories. What a person can do in fiction doesn't necessarily have to match their body type. And I'm talking about physical design. And like Lilith, her arms are freaking noodles. In fact the fact that she can do so much indicates that she SHOULD have a much more athletic build, but doesn't. And that drives me up the freaking wall.
http://img.xooimage.com/files70/8/b/f/1-2f26c26.png
No offense, but I find your examples to be rather underwhelming. Really the only one that worked was Flemeth.
Women gain muscle in different ways then men.erttheking said:
Rochelle seems a good example of this. If you look at females in the military, they tend to be around this build, which makes sense in a game about a recent zombie outbreak. She's not a weight lifter by any means, but, she clearly has an athletic build.
While, I will admit, Lilith isn't the best for "Build".
In terms of Borderlands 2, there is always.
Or Ellie, or hell even Captain Scarlett, unless you consider 1-eyed double-amputees to be conventional. There were better examples than Lilith, but, I felt like going with more well-known characters.
It's kinda hard to argue "What is conventionally attractive in women" towards a homosexual guy such as myself, but, I mean, even if we google "Top 10 hottest women". Basically always white blond-brunette women, with back length hair and devoid of visible tattoos and blemishes. So, while, you and I may not consider them "Unconventional", it's kinda hard to say that society as a whole doesn't.
Don't really see it in her. When I think of female muscles I think of this.The Lunatic said:Women gain muscle in different ways then men.erttheking said:
Rochelle seems a good example of this. If you look at females in the military, they tend to be around this build, which makes sense in a game about a recent zombie outbreak. She's not a weight lifter by any means, but, she clearly has an athletic build.
While, I will admit, Lilith isn't the best for "Build".
In terms of Borderlands 2, there is always.
Or Ellie, or hell even Captain Scarlett, unless you consider 1-eyed double-amputees to be conventional. There were better examples than Lilith, but, I felt like going with more well-known characters.
It's kinda hard to argue "What is conventionally attractive in women" towards a homosexual guy such as myself, but, I mean, even if we google "Top 10 hottest women". Basically always white blond-brunette women, with back length hair and devoid of visible tattoos and blemishes. So, while, you and I may not consider them "Unconventional", it's kinda hard to say that society as a whole doesn't.
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/moodboard/moodboard0908/moodboard090804977/5475873-female-athlete-standing-next-to-starting-block.jpg
You have to squint a bit, but they're there. Rochell's arms just look a little too round to have any muscle. She's not exactly out of shape, but she doesn't exactly have muscles either. She's not quite there yet.
Ok Motor Momma is a much better example. Not so sure about scarlet, considering that even with the whole amputee thing she still has the whole pretty face thing going on.
Yeah, which is why I'm seriously regretting saying conventional. Yeah, but I get the feeling you'd have a hard time finding heterosexual men, showing them that picture and finding one who didn't say that she was attractive.
Okay this argument is a really hard one to make properly and it's sort of difficult to explain why some informed people think violence or sexism in media don't think it causes it but effects our attitudes to it. It's because it causes these things to be seen as normalizing, you can't have a "believable" city without crime, you can't have a "believable" fantasy world without sexism, and those parts are part of life, but they aren't unbeatable facts of life, they can be stopped. So in short I think it makes us sort of accept sexism and violence (those two are the big ones but it's true about everything) more by sub-consciously adding it to make a more "believable" world.
No one is saying that they're unbeatable facts of life. They're saying that when it comes to the element of human interactions in fictional settings, it can be portrayed and explored in various ways, including darker aspects of humanity, such as prejudice. Yeah, you can have a city-setting without crime and a fantasy world without sexism, there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't have a game that is about crime and not actually feature crime in it.Notshauna said:
Violence is different from an "-ism". Violence requires action. It's active. "-Ism"s are more insidious, more obscure, because they're mindsets. As a mindset, it'll seem logical, believable. Black people are disproportionately imprisoned by an astonishing margin. Therefore black people must commit more crimes, right? Women can become pregnant. Therefore it makes no sense for them to be in forward combat roles, because a pregnant woman would be combat ineffective.
These "logical" conclusions are what drive "-isms" like sexism, and they're only reinforced by the culture we're in.
More to the point of the age-old question of whether or not games can drive us to violence or sexism. I'd say the short answer is no. They can't drive you to action, but they CAN reinforce an ideology you hold based on ill-conceived logic.
These "logical" conclusions are what drive "-isms" like sexism, and they're only reinforced by the culture we're in.
More to the point of the age-old question of whether or not games can drive us to violence or sexism. I'd say the short answer is no. They can't drive you to action, but they CAN reinforce an ideology you hold based on ill-conceived logic.
Sexism in video games has an affect on players, though the players that'll be most affected are those that are socially inept and have very few experiences with females or very few female friends (if any).
I think things like scantily-clad female characters aren't necessarily sexist, not any more than scantily-clad men. It's disappointing when there are too many games that pander to gender stereotypes (women are seductive and valuable, men are barbaric and disposable) but I think the discussion is much too biased. I think an excess of either stereotype is detrimental to people of any gender, but the former is usually described as "objectification" and the latter is "power fantasy".
I think both examples can be both of those things. A woman in bikini armour can be seen as an object to be ogled at and can also be seen as superhumanly indestructible, those kinds of female player characters are usually nimble and athletic to an absurd degree and able to lure gullible men into traps, using their own meat-headed sexual urges against them.
The latter can be seen as a force to be reckoned with, a man with abs made of concrete and incredible strength and determination. But on the other hand, he's usually simple-minded or lacking a personality that the player can relate to. His brute strength is used as an asset and in the end he's just a tool that's used to get a job done. His physique can also be ogled at (and don't lie, sometimes it is).
I think both stereotypes are welcome but shouldn't be relied upon. If used in a camp way I think they can be immense fun (and many of my female friends agree). But instead of complaining about who's represented worse I think people should focus on making characters that don't conform to gender stereotypes. A woman dressed in full/non-sexualised armour who's absolutely ripped? AWESOME. An effeminate male who uses finesse instead of brute strength and violence to overcome obstacles? YES PLEASE.
The blame should be put on the patriarchal nature of western societies that's rooted in extremely ancient human behaviours. Not game X that has a boob in it.
I think things like scantily-clad female characters aren't necessarily sexist, not any more than scantily-clad men. It's disappointing when there are too many games that pander to gender stereotypes (women are seductive and valuable, men are barbaric and disposable) but I think the discussion is much too biased. I think an excess of either stereotype is detrimental to people of any gender, but the former is usually described as "objectification" and the latter is "power fantasy".
I think both examples can be both of those things. A woman in bikini armour can be seen as an object to be ogled at and can also be seen as superhumanly indestructible, those kinds of female player characters are usually nimble and athletic to an absurd degree and able to lure gullible men into traps, using their own meat-headed sexual urges against them.
The latter can be seen as a force to be reckoned with, a man with abs made of concrete and incredible strength and determination. But on the other hand, he's usually simple-minded or lacking a personality that the player can relate to. His brute strength is used as an asset and in the end he's just a tool that's used to get a job done. His physique can also be ogled at (and don't lie, sometimes it is).
I think both stereotypes are welcome but shouldn't be relied upon. If used in a camp way I think they can be immense fun (and many of my female friends agree). But instead of complaining about who's represented worse I think people should focus on making characters that don't conform to gender stereotypes. A woman dressed in full/non-sexualised armour who's absolutely ripped? AWESOME. An effeminate male who uses finesse instead of brute strength and violence to overcome obstacles? YES PLEASE.
The blame should be put on the patriarchal nature of western societies that's rooted in extremely ancient human behaviours. Not game X that has a boob in it.
Yes,of course they do all media does. But do they make you sexist in any way? I have to say likely not, games are fiction and the tropes within them are also fiction. The tropes moreover while common are far from universal. This is to say that if one was engage in media with such tropes or even enjoy them they should not effect their behavior in real life or even have a positive effect having examined the tropes and realized they are fiction. No one of a sound mind is going to imitate GTA:V. The game on some level is even there to be an objection to it's self in real life saying that any of this is only permissible due it it being a game