Does the LGB community hate transexuals?

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Helmholtz Watson

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Ok so I'm just curious about something. First off I'm heterosexual and not really in touch with the LGBT community so forgive me if I come off as ignorant. One of my friends was a leader in our colleges LGBT community and activism and he would tell me about it. One thing he brought up was how some people in the LGBT community wanted to have transsexuals be considered separate from them because they felt that transsexuals "didn't belong/don't share our views". This seemed quite shocking to me, because I (naively & ignorantly) assumed that everybody in the LGBT community got along. I then recently came across two articles which are somewhat relevant to the topic. So LGBT escapist (and anybody else that can add to this discussion), is there a rift between the LGB and T community?

The first one involves an inncodent with Neil Patrick Harris using the word "tranny":
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/neil-patrick-harris-trannies-joke_n_1125662.html

The second article involves Dan Savage being called "transphobic":
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/02/dan-savage-glitterbombed-oregon-transphobia-_n_1071627.html
http://www.queerty.com/what-does-it-mean-when-trans-activists-glitterbomb-dan-savage-20111102/

EDIT: People have asked me what I mean by LGBT, I am referring to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transsexual.
 

Daddy Go Bot

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Like so many other communities out there, LGBT communities are circle jerks of intolerance, so why anyone outside of these communities would give a shit is a bit beyond me.
 

enzilewulf

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Honestly its just a level of intolerance that plagues society. No matter which community it is there is some form of intolerance that populates it. Hell I bet there is some members of this very sight that are intolerant about transsexual.

Thanks for elaborating.

Yet my thoughts on the issue stand. Its just life really, wish it wasn't like that but well...what can you do?

EDIT: Well I don't understand why they would, I mean only through unity can their goal of equal rights be obtained.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Daddy Go Bot said:
Like so many other communities out there, LGBT communities are circle jerks of intolerance, so why anyone outside of these communities would give a shit is a bit beyond me.
I was just surprised that there was "in-house" resentment/bitterness/ect. between the LGB and T community.
 

orangeban

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I think the issue with wanting the "T" out of "LGBT" isn't to do with not liking transexuals, I'd say it's more because transgenderism isn't really connected to sexuality, since you can be transgender but still fancy whomever you please. Really it's more of an issue for feminists/masculinists to deal with.

And those two articles are just idiots being idiots, not at all representative of the LGBT communisty.

So no, as far as I'm aware, there is no rift, just a slight confusion over who should deal with transgender issues.

[If you're wondering why LGB got given T to start with, it's probably because no-one else was really willing to accept them]

Edit: Not that I'm saying that there shouldn't be a T in LGB, I say all are welcome to the party. But I understand why some people get confused.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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enzilewulf said:
Honestly its just a level of intolerance that plagues society. No matter which community it is there is some form of intolerance that populates it. Hell I bet there is some members of this very sight that are intolerant about transsexual.

Im just saying this because I need you to elaborate on what LGBT is.

Yet my thoughts on the issue stand. Its just life really, wish it wasn't like that but well...what can you do?
LGBT as in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual.
 

Lilani

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Considering most LGBT campaigns for understanding and equality involve asking people to be "true to themselves" (and it's right there in their acronym) it sounds like your friend is rather full of shit for saying transsexuals don't share the same values. It takes quite a bit of confidence in yourself, who you are, and who you want to be if you're willing to go through with something like that. I've never heard of any other homosexuals who have issues with transsexuals, and I've known a few in my day. I feel like this is a pretty isolated incident with your friend, for the most part.

As for your celebrity incidents there, I think the LGBT community (like many minority groups) has always had issues dealing with jokes. I mean if you can't laugh at yourselves, who can you laugh at? And as for the Dan Savage thing, the criticism against him came from this quote:

"It's staggering that Rob McKenna, a female-to-male transsexual, is making it harder for other FTMs (and MTFs) to access the life saving sex-reassignment surgery that allowed Rob to become the man he is today."

As it turns out, Rob is not a transsexual and I THINK it was supposed to be some sort of joke (that failed miserably). Then there's him using less than sensitive terms, but really, until the number of gay celebrities who make comments like this is pretty substantial compared to those who don't I wouldn't say it's a world-ending trend.
 

Harbinger_

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I had assumed that LGBT stood for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered.

Mind you I don't pay attention to the LGBT and couldn't really try to care.
 

Palademon

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orangeban said:
I think the issue with wanting the "T" out of "LGBT" isn't to do with not liking transexuals, I'd say it's more because transgenderism isn't really connected to sexuality, since you can be transgender but still fancy whomever you please. Really it's more of an issue for feminists/masculinists to deal with.
This is what I was thinking.
LGBT is mostly about freedom of sexuality.
However I could understand how they can argue for transexuals because the matter of whether they're heterosexual or homosexual may come down to whatever gender they end up as.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Lilani said:
Considering most LGBT campaigns for understanding and equality involve asking people to be "true to themselves" (and it's right there in their acronym) it sounds like your friend is rather full of shit for saying transsexuals don't share the same values. It takes quite a bit of confidence in yourself, who you are, and who you want to be if you're willing to go through with something like that. I've never heard of any other homosexuals who have issues with transsexuals, and I've known a few in my day. I feel like this is a pretty isolated incident with your friend, for the most part.

As for your celebrity incidents there, I think the LGBT community (like many minority groups) has always had issues dealing with jokes sometimes. I mean if you can't laugh at yourselves, who can you laugh at? And as for the Dan Savage thing, the criticism against him came from this quote:

"It's staggering that Rob McKenna, a female-to-male transsexual, is making it harder for other FTMs (and MTFs) to access the life saving sex-reassignment surgery that allowed Rob to become the man he is today."

As it turns out, Rob is not a transsexual and I THINK it was supposed to be some sort of joke (that failed miserably). Then there's him using less than sensitive terms, but really, until the number of gay celebrities who make comments like this is pretty substantial compared to those who don't I wouldn't say it's a world-ending trend.
just to clarify, my friend didn't say this as his personal opinion, he was telling me what other people (who where either L,G, or B) had said about Transsexuals.
 

Something Amyss

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JoesshittyOs said:
Well it is "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual" so I highly doubt it. Like very much so.
Volf99 said:
LGBT as in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual.
And the T, quite frequently, is considered silent.

Then again, the B is fairly unliked, too.
 

JoesshittyOs

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Zachary Amaranth said:
And the T, quite frequently, is considered silent.

Then again, the B is fairly unliked, too.
I don't really know that many Gay people, but I really think that out of everyone else in the world, they wouldn't be that intolerant.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Zachary Amaranth said:
JoesshittyOs said:
Well it is "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual" so I highly doubt it. Like very much so.
Volf99 said:
LGBT as in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual.
And the T, quite frequently, is considered silent.

Then again, the B is fairly unliked, too.
Now that you bring it up, my friend (who is gay) did say how he thought how Bisexual people were "confused" (meaning they don't know if their hetero or homosexual) and how it wasn't a real form of sexuality, which made me think "wtf?".
 

Mortons4ck

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A lot of it is contained within the radical feminist communities, stemming from the works of hate-mongerers like Mary Daly and Janice Raymond, who despite being complaining about the patriarchy and male privilege, systematically (and quite hypocritically) deny their own cis-privilege and view transsexuals as subhuman "Frankenstein"s that are a way for the "patriarchy" to devalue women.

Yet another example of oppressed turned oppressors, way to use your master's tools guys!
 

KiloFox

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as a gay male i feel obliged to comment even though i am pretty out-of-touch with the LGBT community...

me personally, i wouldn't see "not sharing the views" as "hate" Lesbians are females attracted to other females, gays are males attracted to other males, and bisexuals just don't give a damn about gender and are attracted to both. were-as transsexuals simply don't IDENTIFY with their own gender. (as far as i understand it, if i am incorrect then i urge someone who IS a transsexual to correct me) several transsexuals are attracted to their biological sex, as well as several transsexuals attracted to the OPPOSITE of their biological sex, and i'm sure even transsexuals attracted to both genders. transsexualism (again as far as i understand it) has nothing to do with attraction, but identity... which dosn't exactly fit with the other three groups in the LGBT community. (of course, that DOES mean that transsexuals can be classified as lesbians, gays or bis, so they'd still be in the LGBT community even if the T was removed)

that's just my thoughts on the subject. i'm probably wrong on a point or two, i havn't gotten to really talk with many transsexuals to ask them these things (i AM acquainted with a few, but i either don't know them well enough, or respect their privacy enough not to pry and ask these questions)
 

orangeban

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Volf99 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
JoesshittyOs said:
Well it is "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual" so I highly doubt it. Like very much so.
Volf99 said:
LGBT as in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual.
And the T, quite frequently, is considered silent.

Then again, the B is fairly unliked, too.
Now that you bring it up, my friend (who is gay) did say how he thought how Bisexual people were "confused" (meaning they don't know if their hetero or homosexual) and how it wasn't a real form of sexuality, which made me think "wtf?".
Yeah, don't mistake that for the view of the community of the whole, that's just plain stupid. As a bi-person (well, pan, but near-enough-to-make-no-difference in this case) I can assure you that I'm not confused, I just don't particularly care if you're an innie or an outie below the waist.
 

Batou667

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Harbinger_ said:
I had assumed that LGBT stood for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered.
Yeah, it does (sometimes the T is just "Trans" to enco pass any degree of transgender, pre-op or post-op, or hermaphrodite).

People make the mistake of thinking that since Lesbians, Gays and Bisexuals are a "progressive" movement, they must therefore be totally liberal and have an empathy for all people of a non-heteronormative nature. Not so; as in any "community" there are the gate-keepers and the old guard who are fiercely opposed to what they see as change or subversion to their cause.

I've seen people express similar surprise when they learn that some atheists are homophobic - shouldn't that be the exclusive reserve of the big bad deists? After all, atheists and gays are both Left-wing Liberals, right? Not necessarily. Real Life (tm) doesn't function like the US political system: it's not a one-dimensional spectrum with clearly defined polar extremes.
 

Terminal Blue

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Yes and no..

Firstly, the T in LGBT doesn't just stand for 'transexual', it also stands for 'transgender' (nowadays, I would argue it's much more correct to associate it with 'transgender').

There's a fairly important difference in that transexuals consider themselves to literally be normal men/women who have somehow been born with the wrong sex, and would generally deny any association between what they are and any other form of sexual "deviance". Many transexual people find the LGBT label offensive because they see it as a recognition of the insincerity of their claims.

Transgender is a much more nuanced term which encompasses a much wider range of positions. That's not to say that most transgendered people don't utterly see themselves as functionally members of the "opposite" sex, or that they don't often feel considerable body dysmorphia, but they accept that sex can be a little more complicated than the above description implies. I don't want to generalize, because it's quite possible many trans people still use the terms interchangably, but there tends to be a feeling that a person can want to change their body or their social gender identity without their being some giant cock-up of nature involved.

Secondly, there is no clear line where gender non-conformity becomes transgender. Unlike being 'transexual', a transgender-identified person doesn't need to be diagnosed with a gender identity disorder and doesn't need to commit to having surgery (although again, many do
) changing your gender does not require you to have surgery or physical body alteration, so there's no real line or easy way to tell the difference, for example, between a stone butch lesbian and a "pre-operative" (I hate that term) female to male transgendered person (transman).

The reason I've bought this up is that this similarity also caused enormous tension sometimes. There has been an awful lot of fighting it out between these two communities over what qualifies a person to be one or the other, because despite being relatively indistinct to an outsider they also tend to see themselves as being very different. So yes, there can be a lot of posturing and mutual dislike over these things.

Thirdly, and I've hinted at it already. The real reason for including trans is that the general heterosexual population tends to lump every form of gender non-conformity together. There's no real line between homophobia and transphobia, any non-heterosexual identification in our society is open to an abusive response simply for not being "properly" heterosexual. We all suffer variations on the same social consequences regardless of whether we're gay or bisexual or trans, so we all campaign together against it.

Let's also break down what the LGBT community is, because it often seems to imply some kind of hive-mind which doesn't exist. When we talk about it in these big monolithic terms, what we generally mean is the pride movement, or rather the legacy of the pride movement (the movement itself isn't acknowledged so much). The pride movement, despite the outside perception that it's a very homogenous 'gays only' thing, is incredibly accepting by design. I've seen heterosexual people in the BDSM scene march at pride holding hands, noone cares. The pride movement remains largely committed to a very gay-liberation agenda, and that is to combat the completely monolithic role in our society and media of a very specific and "normative" type of heterosexual identification which is exclusive and hostile to any non-conforming alternative to its very rigid idea of gender distinction and complementarity.

Arguing for the right for gay men to be considered as "real men" (or more broadly for the whole idea of "real men" and "(un)real men" to stop being so fucking important) is really not that different to arguing for the idea that someone born male can be a "real woman" or vice versa. There is a huge amount to gain from the collective association.

I won't deny that many people on the ground outside of the pride movement and its events don't always see it, but I think if you dig into the politics of it you'll find that a lot of the conflict is about representation, and in that sense you'll find a degree of resentment amongst just about any group apart from exclusively gay man (who are enormously over-represented in LGBT politics). Most bisexuals feel that gay men don't really understand them, a lot of lesbians feel the same.

I think very few people would suggest that this erases the value in having an umbrella under which people can take shelter and campaign, as long as we all remember to step out from under it sometimes.

To be blunt, I know several transgendered people. Any intollerance they may have suffered in the "LGBT community" pales in comparison to how most heterosexuals seem to think of them and react towards them, so for the most part they are very grateful, though certainly not without reservation. That said, the "LGBT community" is not a homogenous culture - in terms of places to go, things to remember and internet presence, trans people very much have their own separate communities. As with all things around this issue, there's considerable overlap, but you don't see tons of poor trans people hanging out in villages and gay clubs looking bored and being casually insulted by passers by.
 

Harbinger_

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Batou667 said:
Harbinger_ said:
I had assumed that LGBT stood for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered.
Yeah, it does (sometimes the T is just "Trans" to enco pass any degree of transgender, pre-op or post-op, or hermaphrodite).

People make the mistake of thinking that since Lesbians, Gays and Bisexuals are a "progressive" movement, they must therefore be totally liberal and have an empathy for all people of a non-heteronormative nature. Not so; as in any "community" there are the gate-keepers and the old guard who are fiercely opposed to what they see as change or subversion to their cause.

I've seen people express similar surprise when they learn that some atheists are homophobic - shouldn't that be the exclusive reserve of the big bad deists? After all, atheists and gays are both Left-wing Liberals, right? Not necessarily. Real Life (tm) doesn't function like the US political system: it's not a one-dimensional spectrum with clearly defined polar extremes.
Not just the US political system, Canada's too *is Canadian*. Not really homophobic, just can't muster the energy to care. If I had to be 'phobic' in some way I suppose I'd be peoplephobic. Not sure if you were suggesting I was homophobic with that, it's hard to tell certain things on the internet. Also on the topic of religious or anti-religious people not being for gays I've known a few buddhists to actually not enjoy the idea of homosexuality which seems strange to me considering their belief system and my sparse knowledge of it.