Does this set my standards too high, or am I just a lunatic? (Opinion on Story in Games)

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xXCrocmonXx

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Okay, I've been called a raging asshole on Facebook for the last time and want to know if this is something a good number of other people can relate to.

When I play a game, I expect the story to be something personal, something to relate to, way before it tells me I need to save the world. I expect the world to catch me, and get me to understand what it is and how it works before it goes "Oh, well, yea that darned dragon wants to eat the King and rape the Princess again so you gotta go save them by killing it." (Add "FOR THE LAST TIME" or "END THE BLIGHT" if you're going for some 'dark fantasy' oxymoron of a game) I find stories like the one in Dragon Age 2 to be far more enjoyable than the ones in Morrowind or Dragon Age: Origins because I start at the bottom (in an actually 'bottom' role instead of 'Fate chose to make you an amnesiac prisoner/made Duncan look here today' Deus Ex Machina kind of way), work my way up, then have wound up in a position to save the world.

When I play a game, I expect to have a role assigned to me and that - while I get some freedom to make that role my own - I don't want the embarrassing mistake of this trend gaming has of "Just plaster yourself in this character's pee-suit so that you can "BE IN THE ACTION" or the "imagine that you're the hero in this fantasy tale by making him look like you" kind of cop-out. Then, when the big conflict arises, it becomes apparent that the world could take any one of the fifteen options I had to choose from when I made my character and gone "Oh that's who you were" and that'd be the only reference to it past the introductory phase of the game.

An example of what I dislike is Morrowind's whole 'Nerevarine' plot. Honestly I hated that, because it was "Everyone in this world hates you, you hate everyone in this world, and they're all relatively impersonal bricks of flesh-textures that just say "Hello, Outsider" or "Fuck outsiders" when you walk by, but guess what you're the big cheese now so you have to man up and do a job you couldn't be assed to do otherwise." It felt like a really shoe-horned way to make me give a rat's ass. And if I chose not to do the main story, there was no impact. The things that were allegedly time-intensive wouldn't happen if I didn't initiate them. I never felt an urgency to do things, and honestly on my first playthrough I groaned whenever they told me I was going somewhere new. Why? Because I had been given rough, horribly inaccurate directions to fifteen hundred locations and the game generally was "suck it up ******" about it and refused to let my character write that important info in his journal at times, forcing me to break the 4th wall and physically write things down myself or look up guides.

What I like however, is something like Dragon Age 2, where you are put into a realistically dark beginning and forced to work your way up. When the game's climaxes start up, you get pulled into the world and you find really interesting things that immerse you and add urgency to everything. In the hub-world map of Kirkwall, it removed all of the confusion of the overlapping maps and intricate pathways that the city had established. This stopped me from doing what happens in Fallout 3/New Vegas where I miss one small detail and run around a town for hours looking for the magical door into the Vault or in Mass Effect where I wanted to get into that room but because I didn't know to look in a specific direction I'd never have found it. It added to the sense and simplicity that would've come from just living in the town and knowing it by heart without me having to actually learn it by heart.

Something that is an exception to this is Halo: Reach/ODST, because you weren't integral to the story and the game didn't really bother to lie to you about it. In Reach, you knew right from the start you'd die and that you were going to lose at the end. However, it didn't go "SAVE THE WORLD" all the time as much as it did "SURVIVE." ODST said "This story is important, now we've scattered the clues all over you figure out why it is. Then draw your own stuff from it." I appreciate games that don't lie to me about the world: if I'm small and insignificant, don't pretend I'm some one-of-a-kind hero, just make me put my own spin into the endeavor instead of the bold-faced lie that is "defend the world that will love you after you save it!" I've been promised by games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and even Halo: "Master Chief Fell Out Of The Plot" (AKA Halo 3).

Am I some kind of opinionated elitist jerk, worthy of all the hatred I get on Facebook for enjoying DA2, hating pointless "YOU'RE THE CHOSEN ONE" plots and being a faceless space marine in a world that wants you to be important but fails to make you so?
 

Liudeius

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I haven't played Morrowind or DA2, so I can't quite use your examples to understand your point, but yeah, you're a lunatic.

Personally I like the way Elder Scrolls games play out. It's true they aren't the best story wise, but it's the RPG and exploration elements that I enjoy.

It's as simple as, if you enjoy it, play it, if you don't, avoid it.

People who like DA2 get insulted that much? Perhaps it's because you're constantly saying other people are idiots for liking their "you're the chosen one" games?
 

veloper

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Sorry but I can't relate.

Videogame stories range from utter shit to mediocre, or in a rare exception to half-decent. It's not worth it.
Pay less attention to the story and more attention to the actual game.
 

The Madman

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You have your own opinions, as do we all. As long as you're not vehemently screaming your every thought into other peoples faces in some attempt to prove how wrong they are and how right you are, that's fine. It'd be boring if everyone agreed on everything.

For example, I disagree. Those rambling maps and the hostile world were elements of Morrowind I genuinely and truly enjoyed. It made the world feel alive in a sense that not everything rotates around you (Which is kinda silly considering the 'twist' part way through, but whatever!). Meanwhile the unclear maps and directions gave a sense of exploration and realism. In real life we can't rely on convenient maps to point out every single 'objective' for us. Things don't glow to attract our attention when we're looking for something important. And the fact that so many games feel the need to do this only makes me feel as though the game is talking down to me. As though the developers think their players are idiots incapable of figuring something out for themselves without a giant glowing arrow pointing the way.

Also adds a sense of exploration, of danger. Which combined with Morrowind unusual setting and lack of enemy scaling, was a truly atmospheric and intense experience for me personally. Probably why I'm also such a huge fan of the STALKER series as well as the old Gothic games among others.

Dragon Age 2 is a very different beast though. And you know what? I agree about the tighter focus. I like it when the story zooms in on a more personal conflict over some overwrought grand scheme, and I like that Dragon Age 2 tried to do that. I also think it failed in a number of ways and that the city was a boring place to be compared to the vast open map of the first game, but whatever. Points where points are due.

veloper said:
Sorry but I can't relate.

Videogame stories range from utter shit to mediocre, or in a rare exception to half-decent. It's not worth it.
Pay less attention to the story and more attention to the actual game.
If they're so bad doesn't that mean we should pay more attention to them if we ever want them to get better? Ignoring a problem is only bound to make it worse, and to deny that story is an integral element of many modern games is ridiculous.

A game with good game mechanics but a shit story can still be entertaining but a game with good game mechanics and a good story to support it is even better.
 

xXCrocmonXx

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Liudeius said:
I haven't played Morrowind or DA2, so I can't quite use your examples to understand your point, but yeah, you're a lunatic.

Personally I like the way Elder Scrolls games play out. It's true they aren't the best story wise, but it's the RPG and exploration elements that I enjoy.

It's as simple as, if you enjoy it, play it, if you don't, avoid it.

People who like DA2 get insulted that much? Perhaps it's because you're constantly saying other people are idiots for liking their "you're the chosen one" games?
I state that a story that goes "Well the world hates you get over it, you're the Chosen One so you have to care!" in the sense that Peter Molyneux did (He's a different matter entirely, I actually get applauded for insulting him when I use these arguments almost verbatim) is bad. Otherwise I merely go "I want a story that makes me care about the world before it says I'm the only guy who can save it."

And while I do tell people to get over themselves when they rage about me being tasteless trash for liking DA2 over DAO, I generally just state how a story should be written in comparison to the way it has been, then get told 'well that's just your opinion, but DA2 was a disappointment and garbage and you have bad tastes for liking it.' Then when I say for them to support their stance, they dump tons of ad hominems as to why I'm a piece of casual trash, explain that they never ran into the problems I had, and that I'm stupid for having my stance differ from theirs. Am I casual trash, a lunatic, or? I want to know if someone can help me figure out this really awkward dilemma.
 

70R4N

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Jan 14, 2010
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Planescape torment
Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of the Betrayer

Play those games if you haven't.
 

Savagezion

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Nah, I agree with you, mostly. What you have to get used to is that crowds are fickle. Dragon Age is bad and TES is teh awesome, mmkay? It really is as simple as that. Do you really think Nolan's 3rd Batman is going to be scored based on its actual merit? Hell no, because now it is "in" to think Nolan is a flawless writer. He could make a mediocre film and it will be scored a perfect 10.

That is just an example but it is the way the world (mob) works. The world has deemed DA2 shit and TES (in all its flawed mechanics, dialogue, and dull stories) a totem in RPG history. Dragon Age could have used a more fleshed out city, but they had to make the game practically from scratch in a year (Thanks EA, you pricks.) - so I can forgive them. Story-wise, character-wise, it was solid. Mechanics, it was decent. This is really apples and oranges as what TES does is give you a world and items inside it, and not much else. Bioware lately offers the opposite. Not so much a world so much as a large "stage" to tell a in depth story. Mass Effect is Chosen One-y but it wasn't too cliched about it. (Morrowind did that as well.)
 

Smooth Operator

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You like DA2 story? Well then you standards can't be that high, just that odd :p

What can I tell you, you like stories your way and others like them in another, the intro missions in DA:O are all I need before I kick off on a grand adventure, dealing with family issues isn't much of an escapism.
 

Liudeius

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Well look at something like Infamous. There everyone does hate you, you're the terrorist who destroyed the city and, depending on your choices, treat people like trash.
It also has more of the story elements like building yourself up from less (not quite nothing), and you can eventually gain the populace's support if you choose the good path, but even if you decide to be evil, you HAVE to care.

And yet that game is widely considered quite good.

If you get into arguments like that, stop talking to PC elitists?
SOMEONE will also call you casual trash for not liking Duke Nukem Forever.
 

Jessta

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Feb 8, 2011
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http://www.hulu.com/watch/251012/south-park-youre-getting-old
You know I would have totally agreed with your expectations like 30 minutes ago but then I watched this episode of south park and I realized that for the most part its just being close minded and cynical. standards are all good and well but for a medium as variable as games, everyones gonna have their own slice of cake.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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well if games storys are suposed to be so "awful" then I'm really not seeing it

also games "storys" come across in ways other than the linearity of movies of even books, good example being Fallout 3 (regardless of what you think of the main story theres tons of stuff in between the lines)
 

TheIronRuler

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Why do we need this "quest for the world" crap?
Look at Dungeon Keeper. yes, Peter did wonderful things. It was a great sim game.
Fallout New Vegas puts you in a starting position where your first objective is revenge. Somebody shot you and left you for dead. Now you need to track him down and kill the bastard. Whatever you do afterwards - is all your choice. The only direction they give you is - 'They wen't that a way'. Which is also the name of the quest, but I digress.
Dragon Age two? Its story was one giant clusterfuck. It was so bad I had to read a wiki page just to remember it, and I played the game twice. You have no clear antagonist, you have no clear goal to work for. Like the writing staff, your character finds stuff to do as they go along with the quests and grinding. In the previous game you had an event you must prevent.
Here? Getting MONEY, a mini-climax with a horned bastard and a non-sensical final act. Each can be considered a story, all three are tied together by a shoe-lace in the form of narration with pictures. Yay.
Did you ever wonder WHY all of these games begin when you are the chosen one or the like? Because you need an end goal. Having too much freedom in such a hand crafted world is just plain wrong because it will turn many players away.
'What do I do?'
'Hunt a deer and get yourself some supper'
'Why?'
'So that you could eat and then you need to find a place to sleep in'
'What would I do next?'
'Get more money'
'Why?'
'To get better equiptment'
'Why?'
It becomes a simulation game. It needs to be a RPG.
 

Manji187

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Go read a book or watch a movie if you want a story....contemporary games are unlikely to deliver anything worthwhile in most cases.

But I sincerely hope Deus Ex: Human Revolution will prove me wrong. Damn, I'm really psyched for that game.
 

Rawne1980

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I have to agree.

At first you came across as a ranting fruit basket but as I read I realised you do have a point.

Most games i've played (Morriwind like yousay) are far too artificial in how they try to get you to give a crap. DA2 is good at how it lets you build up your character from the bottom.

Fallout New Vegas took it to a new low for me. One second you are being pulled out of a ditch with a bullet in your skull and the next you are "the courier" (yes I know he was a courier to start with just bear with me) the scourge of the wasteland. You've gone from being presumed dead to having the rest of the wasteland love/fear you in a matter of minutes, how, I haven't done sod all how the hell would they know.

My biggest gripe are MMO's. I like a good MMO don't get me wrong, this is about the character story ... or levelling if you will.

You go along all the while being told you are a hero and you're saving the world from whatever big bad you happen to be fighting in the last raid. However millions of other people are also the hero and doing the exact same thing. Lean in MMO makers, if you tell everyone they are special, then NO ONE is.

My other gripe is the quests.

"You, mighty hero I have a task only you can accomplish"

"Wow, a task for me, the apparant hero of this here tale?"

"Yes, a task for you that only you (and the millions that came before you) can hope to do"

"Wow okay, i'll do it"

"Fantastic hero, now heres a shopping list but hurry up about it i've got dinner to cook, then polish my shoes, hang out my washing, walk my dog and clean my toilet"

"Those, truly are .. er .. heroic tasks indeed .... i'll get right on it"

You get led to believe that impending doom is on the horizon and we must rush to stop it. Yet suddenly we have enough time to do the housework and shopping of the lazy bastards that live in every sodding town. What happened to impending doom, ahh forget that and finish sweeping my floor you insignificant flea.
 

vrbtny

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Sep 16, 2009
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Wait, someone is actually praising Dragon Age 2? What is that I see coming over the horizon? 2012 methinks.

OT : I like personal stories as much as the next man(unless the next man is you, obviously) but give me a great big space opera or Tolkien fantasy any day.
 

veloper

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Jan 20, 2009
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The Madman said:
veloper said:
Sorry but I can't relate.

Videogame stories range from utter shit to mediocre, or in a rare exception to half-decent. It's not worth it.
Pay less attention to the story and more attention to the actual game.
If they're so bad doesn't that mean we should pay more attention to them if we ever want them to get better? Ignoring a problem is only bound to make it worse, and to deny that story is an integral element of many modern games is ridiculous.

A game with good game mechanics but a shit story can still be entertaining but a game with good game mechanics and a good story to support it is even better.
Thinking about all the plotholes, inconsistencies and stupid cliches can ruin an otherwise perfectly good game experience.
Best to shut down a part of your brain and not pay close attention everytime the gameplay gets interrupted, for your own enjoyment. Unless maybe the story becomes so hilariously bad it becomes entertaining to watch again.

We don't get good stories because being a great game designer doesn't make a great writer.
 

dertyqwerty

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I agree with you 100%. Games just aren't as fun when you're Generic Hero doing shit because that's just what game heroes do... duh. Luckily for me I'm a super nerd and always create my own little back-stories (even when one is provided).

Rawne1980 said:
My biggest gripe are MMO's. I like a good MMO don't get me wrong, this is about the character story ... or levelling if you will.

You go along all the while being told you are a hero and you're saving the world from whatever big bad you happen to be fighting in the last raid. However millions of other people are also the hero and doing the exact same thing. Lean in MMO makers, if you tell everyone they are special, then NO ONE is.
^ This too, but this here is more my huge story hatred. Take WoW:WotLK for example (works for any expansion really but this one I'm most familiar with) The new kid on the block is ol' Arthus the Lichy King, and by golly he's a bad mofo and needs taken down. So you grind your little hero into the ultimate death machine, with sole purpose of destroying him and saving Azeroth. And yay, 20 attempts later you kill him! And the world is saved! For about 5 seconds. Because somewhere, another raid group is stabbing at him, already downed him, or still wiping on trash. And lucky for you, he's back next week, so you get another go at him!
Can't stand it. This huge boss and he never really dies. Is still in the game when a new big baddy hits town. There is never a happily ever after and it drives me crazy.

Captcha was "Jingo Wilatic".. think this might have to be my next RP hero's name. It's fate, obvi :p
 

The Madman

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veloper said:
Thinking about all the plotholes, inconsistencies and stupid cliches can ruin an otherwise perfectly good game experience.
Best to shut down a part of your brain and not pay close attention everytime the gameplay gets interrupted, for your own enjoyment. Unless maybe the story becomes so hilariously bad it becomes entertaining to watch again.

We don't get good stories because being a great game designer doesn't make a great writer.
But again, ignoring it and 'turning off your brain' doesn't solve the problem, it only makes it worse. If there's a glaring flaw in something you don't ignore it, you point it out in the hopes of it being fixed. That's how these things work for literally everything else, no reason not to apply it to games. You wouldn't ignore a meal tasting like shit because the presentation is nice after all!

And in a decade when game development is often the work of dozens if not hundreds of people the whole 'game designers aren't writers' excuse is a stupid one. If none of the staff can write worth a damn then they should hire someone who can. This isn't the Atari 2600 era anymore.

That said I can sorta see what you mean. I can safely say I never have nor shall I ever give a shit as to why Serious Sam is kicking ass nor why armies of worms are fighting each other in Worms Armageddon. But that simply doesn't apply to every game or genre.