Does this set my standards too high, or am I just a lunatic? (Opinion on Story in Games)

[jez29]

Planescape torment
Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of the Betrayer

Play those games if you haven't.

Seconded. On the gameplay side neither of them are without their problems, but in terms of telling stories about character rather than about 'saving the world', there are few better games than these two. Playing Neverwinter Nights 2 is helpful to understanding Mask and I'd certainly recommend it despite your story prefences. NWN2 gives you a really well written 'save the world' adventure that shows that such stories don't need to be overly generic (I think it's far more engaging than Dragon Age: Origins) and the expansion MOTB builds on that to tell an amazing story that I'd rank up there with the best. The two tales really complement each other brilliantly.

And no more needs be said on Planescape Torment, it's reputation is well established. If you can get past the ageing gameplay, it's stunning.

 

[veloper]

Thinking about all the plotholes, inconsistencies and stupid cliches can ruin an otherwise perfectly good game experience.
Best to shut down a part of your brain and not pay close attention everytime the gameplay gets interrupted, for your own enjoyment. Unless maybe the story becomes so hilariously bad it becomes entertaining to watch again.

We don't get good stories because being a great game designer doesn't make a great writer.

But again, ignoring it and 'turning off your brain' doesn't solve the problem, it only makes it worse. If there's a glaring flaw in something you don't ignore it, you point it out in the hopes of it being fixed. That's how these things work for literally everything else, no reason not to apply it to games. You wouldn't ignore a meal tasting like shit because the presentation is nice after all!

And in a decade when game development is often the work of dozens if not hundreds of people the whole 'game designers aren't writers' excuse is a stupid one. If none of the staff can write worth a damn then they should hire someone who can. This isn't the Atari 2600 era anymore.

That said I can sorta see what you mean. I can safely say I never have nor shall I ever give a shit as to why Serious Sam is kicking ass nor why armies of worms are fighting each other in Worms Armageddon. But that simply doesn't apply to every game or genre.

The excuse may be stupid one, but it's also a true one. Everyone thinks he can make up a story and the game people who get the job can churn out the mediocre stuff that most RPG enthousiasts are satisfied with.

Hiring a great writer instead sounds simple enough but isn't likely.
What great writer will want to risk his masterpiece getting butchered by some game studio? Don't tell me it won't happen. Crunch time and writing don't go together.
Best selling authors do well enough for themselves already and a movie adaptation followed by the videogame can always come after.

There's only one bright ray and that's voice acting has been improving over the past decade. Good thing too because the lousy plot may be easy enough to ignore, but hearing people reading out loud their lines embarrasingly badly is harder to shut out.
If we need to point out things relating to the story, then voice-acting the best place to start, because there atleast is potential.

 

[The Madman]

The excuse may be stupid one, but it's also a true one. Everyone thinks he can make up a story and the game people who get the job can churn out the mediocre stuff that most RPG enthousiasts are satisfied with.

Hiring a great writer instead sounds simple enough but isn't likely.
What great writer will want to risk his masterpiece getting butchered by some game studio? Don't tell me it won't happen. Crunch time and writing don't go together.
Best selling authors do well enough for themselves already and a movie adaptation followed by the videogame can always come after.

There's only one bright ray and that's voice acting has been improving over the past decade. Good thing too because the lousy plot may be easy enough to ignore, but hearing people reading out loud their lines embarrasingly badly is harder to shut out.
If we need to point out things relating to the story, then voice-acting the best place to start, because there atleast is potential.

I continue to disagree, though I doubt this will get us anywhere. Besides, I can think of a couple games with excellent story and plot, admittedly not that many and I actually happen to agree with you that for the vast majority of games out there the story is utter shit, but there's potential in the gaming medium and I don't want people to ignore that in favour of just thinking of games as a fun childrens toy.

Also a plot doesn't have to be War and Peace to be good. As you sorta glance at with voice acting, in a visual/audio medium it's just as much about presentation as it is depth. I happen to really like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time for example. Simple story, but a charming execution which made the simple story endearing in a fairy-tale sort of way. I liked that!

The Longest Journey, written by Ragnar Tornquist, is one of my favourite games ever made because of its excellent protagonist, solid voice acting, and sharp dialogue. Frankly the gameplay was shit, yet I love the game regardless.

It might be hard to do, and very few games might have done it well, but that doesn't mean we should just give up hope on story-telling in games.

 

[Davidm4]

You wouldn't ignore a meal tasting like shit because the presentation is nice after all!

Depends on how much value you give to story in games. My statement would be that you could ignore bad presentation because it tastes good. I disagree with Yahtzee when he states that you could ignore Killer 7's poor gameplay because of the uniqueness of the story. I didn't care that Braid's story just threw text at me. Yes, It left me feeling cold, but I loved it as a game.

I can ignore a bad story if there is good gameplay, but not vice versa. But that's just me.

 

[geier]

I haven't read anything but the thread title, but i go for lunatic.

 

[The Madman]

Depends on how much value you give to story in games. My statement would be that you could ignore bad presentation because it tastes good. I disagree with Yahtzee when he states that you could ignore Killer 7's poor gameplay because of the uniqueness of the story. I didn't care that Braid's story just threw text at me. Yes, It left me feeling cold, but I loved it as a game.

I can ignore a bad story if there is good gameplay, but not vice versa. But that's just me.

Fair enough, it's all a matter of personal preference after all.

Story can also be much more or less important depending on the game itself. As I mentioned in another post, I'm not going to pretend I care about the story in games like Serious Sam or Worms Armageddon but in a game like Dragon Age where I'm meant to be trying to immerse myself in the setting and actively interact with the characters? In that case I'll very much care about the story.

And if I'm going to be paying attention to a games story I'd much prefer it be a good one.

 

[Hyper-space]

Am I some kind of opinionated elitist jerk, worthy of all the hatred I get on Facebook for enjoying DA2, hating pointless "YOU'RE THE CHOSEN ONE" plots and being a faceless space marine in a world that wants you to be important but fails to make you so?

Far from it, you are only tired of seeing something that frankly plagues over 90% of all games. Most RPGs boil down to "YOU'RE THE CHOSEN ONE, GO KILL BIG EVIL BADDIE WHO'S EVIL FOR NO REASON AT ALL!" and having that trope being replaced by something more personal and poignant was one of the reasons why i personally felt that DA2 was better than DA:O. As an emigrant who lived in Denmark (and have seen the xenophobia face-to-face), dealing with the Qunari immigrants was so much more satisfying and a personal experience than killing some dragon.

 

[krazykidd]

Okay , so as for the question in the title , you are a raging lunatic

OT: have you played any jrpgs , you usually start at the bottom , regular person going about their business in a quiet village or whatever then BAM something happens . Depending on the game you may or may not be the only hope from go but hey it's just a way to get thw ball going. And because most gamers now get bored WAY too fast , developpers try to make constant action instead of building atmosphere, because of the short attention span of casual gamers. But play some jrpgs ( especially ps1 and ps2 ) and you might find what u want. Now if you want a current-gen wrpg game, well you are screwed and your standards are too high

 

[CRRPGMykael]

Actually,Oblivion was pretty good.You start out in jail,then the Emperor comes and goes like "ure the dude from my dreams u gon save the world and ill die now".you dont know whats going on,but youre given freedom and the first time you get out onto the surface,it just feels rly good,like u were really a prisoner and now ure finally free to do what you want.Fallout 3 was pretty nice too,because you werent rly a hero.you didnt know what was going on.you live in a vault safely,then ur dad goes missing,u escape the vault and look for him.thats it.you dont save anyone or anything,u just wanna find ur dad.plus the ending wasnt rly much "saving" anyone.all u did was kill yourself(or a friend) (unless you have DLC's in which case ure just in a coma and wake up safe and sound afterwards) so the ppl of the wasteland could have some pure water.

 

[xXCrocmonXx]

Snipz

Yea, sure it was a little pointless at first, but DA2 at least efficiently communicated that your family was practically screwed unless the money they were getting came through. (And there's also a way to get a loan if you don't want to drag on the opening of the game. It has a tendency to bite you in the rear that way.

I see what you're saying, but I'd much rather prefer a story where I develop a sense of self in the beginning instead of "Oh, you're [x] and nobody cares about that just shut up and fetch the remote so everyone can help you fight the big baddy like they care." New Vegas arguably did the 'fix the world' thing right because you were a nobody with no previous story (unless you had certain perks like Lady Killer in where nods to a party life are given), and it's just happen-stance that you're the go-to guy. The game doesn't pretty that up with "FATE" garbage though, so I guess that's really all I'm tired of seeing.

But a personal story is something I'd prefer to have before it turns into 'save the world fucker' that I'm seeing a lot of in games as of late.