Doing what is asked of you is a C?
- Thread starter silver wolf009
- Start date
Recommended Videos
You've missed the point entirely. The American education system, being set up the way it is now, makes it unfair to the students who have to deal with particularly difficult teachers when, by and large, the majority of teachers make it very feasible for the average student to achieve straight A's. This means that an intelligent, hard working student with a big workload who has to deal with an exceptionally hard teacher and gets a B+ might get passed over for a lot of scholarships when a less deserving student with average teachers might get that A and receive a scholarship that the other student really deserves. Is it right that the system is set up so that any average Joe can get straight A's? No, but I'm addressing whether or not asking the student to perform far above and beyond what was explicitly asked of them (and, knowing most hardass teachers, in a vague or impractical way) to receive an A (in comparison to the average teacher who considers doing/studying exactly what was directed to be an A or maybe a B) is fair. Based on the way the current system is set up, I'd have to say that it really isn't fair to those who wish to apply for scholarships, as it's saddling them with an extra and potentially impractical burden that many lesser students won't have to deal with. Now, if the difficulty of the teachers were taken into account when divvying up scholarships, I'd be humming a different tune right now. Unfortunately, that's not the case.Kendarik said:
I didn't think I would have to explain this in more explicit detail than I already did, but it looks like I was sadly mistaken.
AAAGGHH! I remember this an none too fondly. Seriously, if you ever come across a teacher who announces this as his grading method you need to IMMEDIATELY do as earnest evaluation of your expected strength in the material and how smart you think you are compared to your peers. I was stupid enough to stay on in a statistics class that did this when maths and I have always had a rocky relationship. Even though I ended the semester having understood and learned the core material (a personal accomplishment I felt proud of, since again I knew this was a subject that would challenge me) actually having LEARNED the damn subject counted for nothing because I performed worse at it than my brilliant fellow classmates. And my professor never had to worry about whether or not he actually TAUGHT the damn subject well because on paper the perfect percentage of students will always fail and succeed.CrystalShadow said:
My chemistry professor last semester claimed that you needed to study upwards of 9 hours a week (not including work) to get a C. And that he would curve people down if more than 13% or so got an A in the class.
I got an A. But I hated every second of it.
I got an A. But I hated every second of it.
My post was referring to the good teachers who are willing to go to another level to truly challenge students, despite the fact that there is grade inflation and unrealistic student/parent expectations in the American education system. These teachers earn my respect. That being said, not all teachers who adopt rigorous grading standards of this kind are necessarily good teachers, which brings me to your posts...Mimsofthedawg said:
Yes, some teachers are hardasses for the sake of being hardasses, throwing out unfair standards, not teaching the skills/material well, and then happily marking students down when they don't measure up. In situations like this, here's what I'd recommend:
-First, go to the teacher and explain that you want to do better, that you are having a hard time understanding why you made the grade that you did, and that you are struggled to comprehend the material presented in class. Make sure to pay attention to the details of this conversation. If you are sincere and the teacher is a good teacher, they should respond positively and show a willingness to work with you. If he/she dismisses your concerns or makes no effort to meet you on your level, then you may have yourself a bona fide bad teacher.
-Second, assuming that step one makes no difference, appeal to the administration. Recount your troubles with the class, make it clear that you brought these concerns directly to the teacher, and be VERY detailed and objective about the way that the teacher responded to you. If the principal is a good principal, this will prompt them to see that the teacher is held accountable for their methods.
If you know of other students who are having similar problems, bring them in on your side. During my first year of teaching there was a teacher who left mid-year because so many students were leveling complaints of "She doesn't teach us! She just writes stuff on the board and expects us to copy it without explaining anything!" The principal will likely be inclined to take the teacher's side when hearing student complaints, but more voices will prompt the principal to question the teacher's methods.
-Lastly, if step two doesn't improve the situation, you can try to appeal to the school board or the district superintendent, but unless the teacher and/or the principal you've tried talking to are new in their position, the board/superintendent will likely have their backs, not yours. If this is where you end up, there's not really anything you can do short of transferring to a new school. At this point, I'd recommend just toughing it out, do the best you can and just try to make it to the end of the school year/semester when you'll be done with that class.
Good luck.
EDIT: After re-reading your posts, I realized that you were talking about college-level, which I have no experience with, but I would recommend the same discourse. Talk the to professor first, paying close attention to how they respond. Then talk to their supervisors, recounting in objective detail how the professor responded; get other students who are having the same problems to do the same.
Grading systems have never made any sense to me...
You asked me to do something
I achieved that goal, I reached 100% of what was asked of me...
I got an 80% grade?
They say 100% is going aboce and beyond but that would mean I'm doing more than what was asked therefore I may well end up getting 120%.
Seriously though grading systems make sense in the way that it would be a pain the arse for teachers to grade in the way I mentioned eariler and after a while it would turn back into what we have now...
"you got 120% this year?"
"pffft, I got 150%"
Same idea in the end.
You asked me to do something
I achieved that goal, I reached 100% of what was asked of me...
I got an 80% grade?
They say 100% is going aboce and beyond but that would mean I'm doing more than what was asked therefore I may well end up getting 120%.
Seriously though grading systems make sense in the way that it would be a pain the arse for teachers to grade in the way I mentioned eariler and after a while it would turn back into what we have now...
"you got 120% this year?"
"pffft, I got 150%"
Same idea in the end.
It depends entirely on the difficulty and specificity of what you're asked to do, as well as judgment regarding the quality of what you produced. If you're assigned a simple task of broad scope, and you do whatever the least amount of work to satisfy that assignment might be, that's a C alright. If you're assigned a difficult and very specific task, with explicitly detailed instructions, and you do exactly that... not a C. The instructions were there for a reason.
Well to start this off I do agree with most posters "Average work is C work" I will expand on that with a few things.
Average = C does NOT apply to classes and tests with fixed solutions, the only exception being if the teacher tells you outright that to get full points for your work you must show the way you arrived to the solution. Though when I was growing up most of the teachers wouldn't even look at your solutions if you didn't write them out and show how you arrived at the answer, in those cases that meant C was an actual bad grade and one you could be held back a grade/class on. Only one math teacher in my entire school career had a bad attitude towards students with a 80% test, 20% quiz, and -10% homework break up, with the -10% being a maximum penalty off your grade for doing homework wrong.
Average = C does apply to non-standard works, essays, projects or other such things that force you to show your competence or grasp of a subject. Although what you would need to do to excel would vary from item to item, generally adding more details that aren't readily available from on hand materials (Class books, class websites, teachers materials, ect.) will help you get to a higher grade. My example of this was a collage class in construction, my task was to make a compiled folder of building techniques and materials i.e how buildings are put together, and what workers do and use to hold those buildings together. Now I wasn't given any particular parameters for the grade, but I did scour the general area I lived for three weeks looking in the homes of people I knew, some I didn't know (why they let me in is still a mystery) and I even got lucky and found a building in early construction. Three weeks of pictures, interviews with residents/workers, and material recipe lists for each of concretes and specially made rebars (essentially the metal skeleton of the building) the site was using to support the building. All that effort was put into a 34 page book and got me a B, what I missed and how I could improve it I still don't know and he never answered.
Still all that said and done one of the things I would have liked to see improved on in 90% of my teachers both public and collage, is for them to show us "how" to look beyond the minimum. Now that is difficult because everyone is human, and like every other living thing on the planet it does the bare minimum, by its own perception, to get through the day. But that really was one of the hardest things for me to grasp, and no one really was able to show how. Now I don't know if its simply the area I live in or what, but the teachers were as often C people as the students they handed Cs out to. Usually doing no more then reading from a book and writing a few things down that would appear on a test. Although the amount of work both us and the teachers needed to do did go up as the years went on.
The only way to truly describe it, would be to say that every new minimum I rose above became the next minimum to achieve. Its a lesson that has lasted into my adult life. Each day that I've done the same amount of surveys and reports my boss has begrudgingly put down as having not disappointed, and each day that I do more as a successful day. Any less then the previous day usually finds me in his office wondering why I couldn't keep up.
Average = C does NOT apply to classes and tests with fixed solutions, the only exception being if the teacher tells you outright that to get full points for your work you must show the way you arrived to the solution. Though when I was growing up most of the teachers wouldn't even look at your solutions if you didn't write them out and show how you arrived at the answer, in those cases that meant C was an actual bad grade and one you could be held back a grade/class on. Only one math teacher in my entire school career had a bad attitude towards students with a 80% test, 20% quiz, and -10% homework break up, with the -10% being a maximum penalty off your grade for doing homework wrong.
Average = C does apply to non-standard works, essays, projects or other such things that force you to show your competence or grasp of a subject. Although what you would need to do to excel would vary from item to item, generally adding more details that aren't readily available from on hand materials (Class books, class websites, teachers materials, ect.) will help you get to a higher grade. My example of this was a collage class in construction, my task was to make a compiled folder of building techniques and materials i.e how buildings are put together, and what workers do and use to hold those buildings together. Now I wasn't given any particular parameters for the grade, but I did scour the general area I lived for three weeks looking in the homes of people I knew, some I didn't know (why they let me in is still a mystery) and I even got lucky and found a building in early construction. Three weeks of pictures, interviews with residents/workers, and material recipe lists for each of concretes and specially made rebars (essentially the metal skeleton of the building) the site was using to support the building. All that effort was put into a 34 page book and got me a B, what I missed and how I could improve it I still don't know and he never answered.
Still all that said and done one of the things I would have liked to see improved on in 90% of my teachers both public and collage, is for them to show us "how" to look beyond the minimum. Now that is difficult because everyone is human, and like every other living thing on the planet it does the bare minimum, by its own perception, to get through the day. But that really was one of the hardest things for me to grasp, and no one really was able to show how. Now I don't know if its simply the area I live in or what, but the teachers were as often C people as the students they handed Cs out to. Usually doing no more then reading from a book and writing a few things down that would appear on a test. Although the amount of work both us and the teachers needed to do did go up as the years went on.
The only way to truly describe it, would be to say that every new minimum I rose above became the next minimum to achieve. Its a lesson that has lasted into my adult life. Each day that I've done the same amount of surveys and reports my boss has begrudgingly put down as having not disappointed, and each day that I do more as a successful day. Any less then the previous day usually finds me in his office wondering why I couldn't keep up.
It's reasonable. People are too used to get max points for doing exactly the same thing as everybody else. No. An A should only be awarded for the best. The teacher sets an average level that's reasonable for everyone, that's the C. You want more, do more.
That. That sentence sums it up well, the friendly lecturers are the ones who mark stringently. I've had a few nasty surprises where the lecturer gets along well with the class and lessons are really fun, but come marking time lots of us get shot down. The hard-nosed ones are hard-nosed 'cause they're dead serious about what they teach.Hero in a half shell said:
Absolutely correct, and unfortunately ignored by most of the rest of the educational world.
I remember learning that the world was unfair (properly learning, not just suspecting) when our teachers gave us the requirements we were expected to do for GCSE work, and we were told that C meant satisfactory, B meant good work, and A meant outstanding, above the requirements greatly etc.
Filled with certainty that I would achieve nothing but As I worked incredibly hard, read twice as many books as were required for the reading lists, wrote more, explored concepts I knew other classmates weren't exploring...
And then the guy who did nothing and turned in two sides of A4 he'd written the night before (handwritten when the assignment specified typed) and still got an A.
And it kept on happening in every class. Hard work got me nowhere, slacking got them everywhere. I eventually embracd this layabout academic culture when I got to university, and managed to get through doing less than the bare minimum and flat out lying to my tutors, getting away with it because they didn't really care about awarding exceptional students and helping bad ones, just keeping the numbers up.
So in answer to the question, it is entirely right that he should do this, because a C is a satisfactory grade. When you do what you have asked and nothing more, you have earned a C. As should be reserved for those who go above and beyond, and I am glad to know there is a teacher willing to uphold this vital tenet. Maybe it will force some people to actually engage their brains.
I remember learning that the world was unfair (properly learning, not just suspecting) when our teachers gave us the requirements we were expected to do for GCSE work, and we were told that C meant satisfactory, B meant good work, and A meant outstanding, above the requirements greatly etc.
Filled with certainty that I would achieve nothing but As I worked incredibly hard, read twice as many books as were required for the reading lists, wrote more, explored concepts I knew other classmates weren't exploring...
And then the guy who did nothing and turned in two sides of A4 he'd written the night before (handwritten when the assignment specified typed) and still got an A.
And it kept on happening in every class. Hard work got me nowhere, slacking got them everywhere. I eventually embracd this layabout academic culture when I got to university, and managed to get through doing less than the bare minimum and flat out lying to my tutors, getting away with it because they didn't really care about awarding exceptional students and helping bad ones, just keeping the numbers up.
So in answer to the question, it is entirely right that he should do this, because a C is a satisfactory grade. When you do what you have asked and nothing more, you have earned a C. As should be reserved for those who go above and beyond, and I am glad to know there is a teacher willing to uphold this vital tenet. Maybe it will force some people to actually engage their brains.
This is an awesome analogy, so I'm going to use it to argue against youShawn MacDonald said:
I say I want you to bring the groceries in and put them away, but I haven't told you where I want everything to go. If you come in and drop everything in a cupboard, you get a C, because you've done what I've asked.
If you, instead, come in, look around at where things are placed, then place all the groceries in their respective place, you get an A as you did a little bit of extra and non-described work to improve the result of the task.
Same applies here.