Don Daglow Dissects the American Online Gamer

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Why yes it does. My psych studying friend who also plays dark souls once got on a rant about how dark souls is like an abusive partner. And encourages you to accept victimhood and condone it. I don't really buy it, dark souls is simply a tragic heroic adventure, where you will suffer, but suffer so that you can learn.

Well, I'd say in part both you and your friend are right, but the game only forces the player to accept their victim status as a way for them to eventually stop being the victim. It punishes and brutalises but also teaches - or so my flatmate claims - so that the player eventually surpasses the abuse and comes out stronger. Tough love, if you will.

Me, I just think it's for masochists who enjoy constant suffering ;-)

There is a place beyond suffering and masochism. It is enjoying mp.

In a sense dark souls is very hellraiser, but with a zen calm about it, an eventual possibility.

 

[MammothBlade]

This makes me cringe. So game devs should appeal to the lowest common denominator... what a load of crap. Even if many people - both American and European - fit this description, it doesn't mean that the quality of games should be lowered to meet their lowbrow tastes.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Because surly ALL American gamers are drooling idiots who only care about guns and instant gratification, who don't accept failure and don't know who Stalin is despite the fact that quite a few shooters are set during WW2.

You just described the average 'merican. Take a good look outside, it will depress you.

He doesn't seem to understand that gamers are composed of more than just ten year olds screaming obscenities at each other over Xbox live.

Money talks, bullshit walks. Those xbox live kiddies have their parent's money. You (assumedly) dont. Who has more money to plonk down on silly shit like avatar customization that eventually adds up to $2-300? My money's on the whiny xbox live kid.

EDIT: I understand this is meant to be a joke, but he's treading dangerous ground, there's a fine line between what can be taken as a joke and what's taken as offensive.

The truth is often a joke, since it makes the blow easier to take.

Yep, the post world war boom, the expansion of the middle classes and the growth of consumerism and consumer classes, it is all part of what brings us here. Parents supporting the expensive gaming activities of the young is also a reason Warhammer exists, and why you didn't get it in the 1700s.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Because surly ALL American gamers are drooling idiots who only care about guns and instant gratification, who don't accept failure and don't know who Stalin is despite the fact that quite a few shooters are set during WW2.

You just described the average 'merican. Take a good look outside, it will depress you.

He doesn't seem to understand that gamers are composed of more than just ten year olds screaming obscenities at each other over Xbox live.

Money talks, bullshit walks. Those xbox live kiddies have their parent's money. You (assumedly) dont. Who has more money to plonk down on silly shit like avatar customization that eventually adds up to $2-300? My money's on the whiny xbox live kid.

EDIT: I understand this is meant to be a joke, but he's treading dangerous ground, there's a fine line between what can be taken as a joke and what's taken as offensive.

The truth is often a joke, since it makes the blow easier to take.

Hello! You haven't posted any information about yourself in your profile, so I can't make any assumptions about how you formed your opinion. Are you an American? If you aren't please don't speak for what the average American is like. If you are an American, are you going through that stage where you're a misanthropic youngin?

Money talks, bullshit walks. Those xbox live kiddies have their parent's money. You (assumedly) dont. Who has more money to plonk down on silly shit like avatar customization that eventually adds up to $2-300? My money's on the whiny xbox live kid.

A wonderful point, I agree, but you shouldn't completely disregard the spending power of a full time working adult with disposable income and NO kids.

The truth is often a joke, since it makes the blow easier to take.

Except when it's one individual making a gross generalization about an entire group of people. It's impossible that everyone is that way, and in fact usually aren't except for a vocal minority. One individual doesn't have the observation skills to make such assumptions about such a large group, I don't care if that person is 20 or 90. It would be more correct to say "Ten year old Xbox live gamers" Are this way, although even that is a generalization.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Emotions are getting heated, because part of what Don says (and those who back him) sticks.

Why in the recent months the sexism and racism of online gamers has been a huge issue. Not everyone is a muppet, but there are enough muppets for negative views to have support.

 

[Ympulse]

Hello! You haven't posted any information about yourself in your profile, so I can't make any assumptions about how you formed your opinion. Are you an American? If you aren't please don't speak for what the average American is like. If you are an American, are you going through that stage where you're a misanthropic youngin?

Firstly, I don't put information on public forums for a reason. But yes, I am an American. And no, your inference that I'm just some whiny emo kid is also incorrect.

A wonderful point, I agree, but you shouldn't completely disregard the spending power of a full time working adult with disposable income and NO kids.

The full time working adult gamer is a much smaller population than the hypothetical xbox child. While some games are targeted at different demographics, look at what the BIG games cater to. The largest of them (We'll say wow and cod, for sake of argument) started out as 'mature' type games, but moved their development over to catering to the children, and their profit margins increased. Sure, adults still play the games, but the money is being made my selling to children, as they will get all of the "shiny" DLC and sparkle ponies without a second thought, while an adult gamer is more likely to think about the purchase critically.

Except when it's one individual making a gross generalization about an entire group of people. It's impossible that everyone is that way, and in fact usually aren't except for a vocal minority. One individual doesn't have the observation skills to make such assumptions about such a large group, I don't care if that person is 20 or 90. It would be more correct to say "Ten year old Xbox live gamers" Are this way, although even that is a generalization.

While you are correct, not everyone is like that, the vast majority is (upwards of 70% i'd say). The individual you're talking about has more than 40 years of experience in the gaming industry, I'd be willing to give his opinion a bit more weight than a random journalist or what have you. And frankly, the proof is there, you just need to look. The Sims, for instance, is one of the highest grossing games PERIOD. And what is it about? Playing god with imaginary people. [edit] That you can buy neat things for and customize however you want. Oh, and it treats you like a down-syndrome child. (You did something useful! YAAAAAAYYYY!)

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Hello! You haven't posted any information about yourself in your profile, so I can't make any assumptions about how you formed your opinion. Are you an American? If you aren't please don't speak for what the average American is like. If you are an American, are you going through that stage where you're a misanthropic youngin?

Firstly, I don't put information on public forums for a reason. But yes, I am an American. And no, your inference that I'm just some whiny emo kid is also incorrect.

A wonderful point, I agree, but you shouldn't completely disregard the spending power of a full time working adult with disposable income and NO kids.

The full time working adult gamer is a much smaller population than the hypothetical xbox child. While some games are targeted at different demographics, look at what the BIG games cater to. The largest of them (We'll say wow and cod, for sake of argument) started out as 'mature' type games, but moved their development over to catering to the children, and their profit margins increased. Sure, adults still play the games, but the money is being made my selling to children, as they will get all of the "shiny" DLC and sparkle ponies without a second thought, while an adult gamer is more likely to think about the purchase critically.

Except when it's one individual making a gross generalization about an entire group of people. It's impossible that everyone is that way, and in fact usually aren't except for a vocal minority. One individual doesn't have the observation skills to make such assumptions about such a large group, I don't care if that person is 20 or 90. It would be more correct to say "Ten year old Xbox live gamers" Are this way, although even that is a generalization.

While you are correct, not everyone is like that, the vast majority is (upwards of 70% i'd say). The individual you're talking about has more than 40 years of experience in the gaming industry, I'd be willing to give his opinion a bit more weight than a random journalist or what have you. And frankly, the proof is there, you just need to look. The Sims, for instance, is one of the highest grossing games PERIOD. And what is it about? Playing god with imaginary people. [edit] That you can buy neat things for and customize however you want. Oh, and it treats you like a down-syndrome child. (You did something useful! YAAAAAAYYYY!)

Sigh, I apologize if I've insulted you, as it was not my intention. I was actually trying to be friendly, and I didn't call you a "Whiny Emo Kid" that was your assumption and again I'm sorry as that was not my intention. There is a stage that a few teenagers/ young adults go through where they "hate the world" that's what I was talking about. This is not the same as being "Emo" as these people don't dress a particular way or embrace any sort of life style.

I don't have and never have had any intention of arguing with you. It's a pointless effort since you won't change your opinion and neither will I so truce?

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Europeans are stuck-up has-beens who can't get over the fact that their countries have done nothing but suck and kiss the U.S.A's or Stalin's ass since the end of the second world war.

In most online games, they tend to be hypocritical and snobby - usually denoting players they find inferior to them to be "damn yanks" and "stupid Americans" while blaming their own faults on server lag and poor design.

* A good game has minimal lag and server down time while being very well designed.

LOL U GAIS, U LIEK MAI TUNG + CH33K HUMOUR/? If you noticed, I had some "thoughtful" and sensible truism-I mean, "Points" about how to run a good online multiplayer. None of you smart and intelligent gents across the pond should take offense to any of the stuff said prior to it, because it was all obviously just a joke and not meant to be taken personally.

No longer being facetious, I didn't really see the joke. Those are legitimate observations of the giant ignorant mass of angry homophobic preteens on XBoxLive (a user base that is not strictly American, mind you); while I love making fun of said idiot user base, he insults me personally by then labeling this moronic mass as "Americans" in general. This not only covers retarded 10 year-olds, but "Americans" as a whole, which includes me. It would be the same as class-typing every condescending non-american I've played with/against as representative of all "Europeans" when the aforementioned jerkwads are in fact just a small minority.

I know failure, and the pain and humiliation of academic failure, all too well - to the point that the fear of failure has been one of the select fuels that got me through high school and college. I found that him saying that I - by association of being an "American" - did not know this was more insulting than being told I needed to be pandered to and have my hand held like a moron.

Yes, I damn-well took that personally.

You just don't get satire do you?

 

[Cowabungaa]

snip

You're mistaking two things here. What you're describing is the content of the game, all the information contained within the game. The interface is nothing more than the shell to display all of that information. And there is indeed not a single reason why the interface should be nothing else than an intuitive and simple affair.

The more mental energy you have to spend on figuring out how to get to a certain menu, the less mental energy you can actually spend on the content itself. It's a needless distraction. Hence why the ultimate goal of an interface designer is to make an interface that you barely notice.

 

[Chimichanga]

You just don't get satire do you?

I get satire, I just personally didn't find his very funny. My personal reasons for why I did not find it funny were mostly because it did not sound like satire.

To me, it feels like he was making a legitimate critique of general "Americans" and then tried to dress it up as a joke to deflect reasonable angry responses. Part of that is because what he said had truth to it. His points were thought-out and analytic, albeit over-generalized. To me, they seemed way too thought-out to be anything but.

Instead of humorous, it instead came across as a half-assed and condescending psycho-analysis using the cover of "satire".

Plus, the whole "Guffaw! Americans are stupid, ignorant, trigger-happy dirt-farmers who know jack shit about anything outside the U.S.! Guffaw!" is a dead horse that has been beaten far too often for far too long. Jokes go from funny to irritating when repeated over and over ad infitum.

Seriously, book a flight to Poland and start making well-versed and analytic poverty and potato jokes - see how well received your "satire" is over there.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

It is a bit of satire, but I don't think he is far off the mark. Those make the best jokes.

I'll use the example of Dark Souls. That can be a truly punishing game, rewarding yes, but it sure hits you hard and your idea of constantly advancing, always triumphing. No the game forces you to think and plan and get your reactions right down. Not just button mashing either, or you will go off a cliff or over-commit and get slaughtered when you run out of stamina.

Great game, it is huge in Japan but westerners took to it with less abandon. It sold alright, but you don't see many non-Japanese in the mp. Some will be slogging through offline, but the added difficulty of mp scares people, frustrates them, makes them lose their shit. I've heard about it,tTalking to friends, and some have given up on it entirely, they now hate it, it didn't allow them to easily win on their first run. They proved to be unable to master it and persevere through the challenge that is dark souls. Now I put it down for a while, and came back and "got it", but not all are willing to do that. Great game truly, but it is hard, so you see it on return shelves and you don't hear so much about people bragging of finishing it, because for many it is just sitting on their shelf un-finished.

The Japanese gamers love the grind, and working out exactly what works and what doesn't. It has been a harder bit of entertainment cake to swallow for some. Luckily I have another friend who, while he put it down for a while after being caned, has stuck with it and gotten good. He opts for a simple build but not everyone is a parrying onion strategist. Poor guy had to accept not all games are easy, but eventually he did. Now we share dark souls stories.

Note: been fighting the forest hunters a lot lately, sitting on 2.3 million souls.

Youre forgetting that many who play dark souls duped their way to max lvl (a bug in the game that gives you infinite souls from one "soul" item). Dark Souls is FAR from an example that "gamers want it hard". MANY do ofc love the challenge the real game provides (like you and me obviously), but I would roughly say 40% of people that invade me / I invade, cheated their way to max lvl and then strolled through the game. When my lvl 70 easily kill a lvl 711 (not by backstab abuse, i fight honest ), its clear they didnt get there through skills. Don Daglow does indeed hit the spot (but he shouldve said "most gamers", not "all american gamers); that a huge chunk of gamers want things easy and dont like challenge. They like to win, and the way to victory is irrelevant.

And yes, Im sure they havent reached max lvl through honest means. Some have, but not 40% of the playerbase

Also, bring the dark souls stories! The greatest game of this console generation is something we should be able to talk about for hours! Cant wait for the expansion.

Also 2: All you who get offended by this, youre only entitling yourself as a person who fits his description. Its clear he doesnt refer to you, but the frothing ragekids that dominate most anonymous pvp, so why start nitpicking on what exact words he use? Stop taking everything as a low blow against your pride. SMILE and rise above it instead

Given how much Japanese love to grind, I don't think cheating to get to max level is common. There is the notorious glitch backstab users, but from those I go against, there is a strong knowledge of the game (at least in those from level 60-80 level) that comes across in co-op or versus play. You start to see after a while, based on equipment and such, who has played for under 100 hours, who has played over that, and who is on ng+ and who is not! Some clearly know their sh*t, often far more than I do.

Max level isn't a side of the game I'm familiar with though, I'm only a low to 75 level player. There is a level cap on invasions, although I think the equation gets a bit screwy. I've been invaded by level 40s and clearly level 120+s when around 70.

It is an example of gamers who want it hard though, from what I've heard and read. I've heard nothing about this infinite soul glitch until now, but the stories on its difficulty you hear over and over (often by those that give up).

Isn't the backstab glitch abuse a problem? A shameful display. I'm a Leo ring (yes, considered the weakest ring compared to hornet) and ring of favour, medium, silver knight spear and shield build, so I don't get many backstabs off. I'm in it for the tough fights, and it is good when I encounter similar players.

"Frothing ragekids" is a good one, exactly what Don was talking about. So sad that gaming can bring out the worst in us.

A few stories then. Lately I've been hunting forest hunters in darkroot, even leading to them committing suicide by leaping off the cliffs. Which I realised was a great irony, Japanese in a mostly Japanese game, invading and then committing suicide.

There was also a great back and forth battle of timing, blocks and thrusts, when the opponent finally broke to try and escape and get some healing, a single poison dagger in the back took them down. Don't turn and run!

And, I was pairing up with a pro against two forest hunter invaders. They surrounded us, we were next to a log, around they came, I got off chaos storm and they were two committed. Took out two player with no fuss.

And then there is being aided by a beginner to take the npcs in darkroot, the bandit, cleric, wizard and such. Your ally is clearly not ready for ng+, because they rush forward, start swinging and the bandit power attacks them in the head, with the axe, straight through, takes them out. Sigh. Now I have to summon someone else.

 

[weirdee]

Well, that's not going to piss off anybody at all.

Funny thing is, a lot of those points are actually pretty good advice.

I'm a bit iffy about the idea of games "treating the player like a celebrity" though. That sounds like pandering.

The trick with pandering is to arrange it so that they can't tell that it's pandering.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

One of my skyrim friends is a bit over being the centre of attention in games, and the chosen one. She has joined a D&D game I run, and is pleased to be just another adventurer.

Hero burn-out.

 

[weirdee]

One of my skyrim friends is a bit over being the centre of attention in games, and the chosen one. She has joined a D&D game I run, and is pleased to be just another adventurer.

Hero burn-out.

Well, there is a difference between having the story focus on you, and having the entire world in that story focus on you.

There's just a tendency to do the latter when you're not thinking much further than the story itself.

Of course, since many MMOs prioritize individual glory (even as a group, it's all about who wins), they will make you the hero eventually, if only because they can't make you do fetch quests forever.

except for mabinogi, where being a normal villager is an entirely acceptable career path, albeit dull

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Personally, I'm not bothered by what he said. Especially because I follow the Dennis Leary (?) school of thought. "Look at the average American. Now realize that half of America is dumber than that."

But to anyone saying "It was obviously a joke. Don't get so offended"...well, this [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustJokingJustification] is a page you need to look at.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Good old Dennis Leary. Yeah, heard that one before.

Ive also heard it put in a Tom Clancy book, that America is home to the greatest geniuses and the greatest fools. Now consider this, are the greatest geniuses playing games online?

 

[asap]

This guy is a boss, completely correct about why certain games really take off online without even mentioning gameplay.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I thought I was on youtube for a minute reading some of the comments. This genuinely reminds of a youtube video comment section where a guy was taking the piss out of some silly pro religion arguments. Example, "Athiest says the Bible isn't real. I say, of course it is! I have one right here in my hand and you can't get much more real than that". The ire in those comments thinking he was genuine was delicious.

Anyway it is tongue and cheek joke but unfortunately a lot of it is true with some of the new attitudes in gaming nowadays.