dont hate the player.....hate the game

[GangstaPony]

I have seen this in Pokemon of all places thanks to those idiots at Smogon.com who pretend they own Pokemon and the Non-Japanese fans let them. I understand Tier lists and banning legendary's as Nintendo began those concepts but banning moves like Double Team & Sand Attack of all things? Just stupid!

 

[geK0]

It depends on the game, the severity of the imbalance and the circumstances of why you are playing. Noob toobing can be pretty annoying, but 9 times out of 10, if somebody is actively trying to go after the noob toober, they will either kill him or he will be forced to switch to an actual gun.

I was playing soul calibur 4 a while back with a friend. I was playing nightmare and beating her down pretty mercilessly when she was on the ground, while she was citing some tournament rule saying that I wasn't allowed hitting her while her character was on the ground. I found it pretty irritating because it wasn't a tournament game and she was better than me at the game by a wide margin and would win most of the matches anyway.

Another time (many years ago), I was playing Halo 2 with a group of 8 friends, and the two players who actually played online were abusing all kinds of glitches (jumping outside of the level, using 'invisible stair cases' using these weird glitch jumps) to beat the shit out of us! THAT is something I'd consider to be unfair.

In online random match ups, anything goes, because it is impossible to agree on what you are and are not allowed to use beforehand and everyone (usually) has access to the same abusive weapons and bonuses. Glitches are never alright though, and should be reported if possible.

In casual games in with friends, if you want to make special arbitrary rules, everyone should agree on them beforehand (no citing tournament rules to somebody with no knowledge of them when you didn't notify the other player(s) that you want to play by a special ruleset). If there is something truly game-breaking that everyone can agree not to use, then that will make the game more fun for everyone.

In tournament games, the people making the rules will have enough knowledge of the game (often more knowledge than the developers themselves) that whatever rule modifications they make will probably have been necessary to make the tournament fair. Sometimes there will just be some combination of weapons, attacks, bonuses or whatever that just cannot be countered and a tournament where people only use this tactic would be boring.

 

[DustyDrB]

This kind of attitude is kinda popular in TF2. Particularly with the Pyro class. People keep calling him a noob class just because a player can just press W+M1 to use his main weapon and get kills. I can kinda agree about Pyro players who do nothing but this, as they usually don't do well or contribute to the team depending on the skill of the other team.

But the way I see it, if you're getting killed over and over by a Pyro player who abuses that tactic. A very easy tactic to exploit I might add, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Also, in my opinion, if you think the Backburner is a noob weapon, then you may as well call the Spy a noob class because they basically work the same way. As both can be countered if you watch your back.

I pretty much stopped seeing people say that about Pyros once the Degreaser arrived. That's my mainstay weapon and same for most people I know who main as a Pyro. It's actually one of the more technical classes in the game now.

 

[shootthebandit]

Yeah...I was kind of hoping that your example for this would actually be a good game, or even a half-way decent one...hell even a mediocre game would be fun to discuss, but Call of Duty? Well whatever, yeah those mechanics are so broken, there are some pretty easy ways to break the whole system.

Let this be a lesson to everyone: 'Create a Class' (with the liberty allowed in CoD) pretty much breaks a game.

And though, yes, these are pretty much rock-solid grounds to 'hate the game,' I've got to say one may go so far as to 'hate the developer.' I mean honestly, it is not like other shooters have not been patched to improve the multiplayer function with more exact hit-boxes or more balanced weapons! Though to be fair, most Call of Duty games are so broken, I don't think anything could very well fix one of them.

i used this example because everyone can relate to it, and certain classes give you a massive ''advantage''. hence why its a good example to use

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Em no that excuse doesn't fly with me. Just because it is in the game now does not make it balanced case in point the toucher build for Ranger/Necromancer in Guild Wars and the SoJ Assassin/Monk also in Guild Wars.

 

[Thurston]

People, being clever bastards, will find exploits and bugs, and use them to their greatest advantage.

If there are no exploits or bugs, they will find the most powerful combination of options, giving them the greatest advantage. Then, they will try to limit the play so that it compliments their advantages.

This should be expected, because people are clever bastards.

Good developers try to balance the game. If they can't, or won't, then as a player, you'll have to adapt, or join them, or leave.

 

[Fishyash]

I'm gonna hate people who repeatedly spam the same moves in fighting games...yes it's a legitimate move but come on people vary it a little.

Honestly, if you're getting caught out by the same move over and over again, then that just makes you pretty bad at fighting games

Yes and no.

I don't think using the same move multiple times is either a bad or a good strategy in itself. It is 100% down to how you use it. How efficient you are, how well you are spacing. It can be a winning strategy, or it can be a losing strategy.


Yeah if you are losing to someone standing in the same spot mashing one move you deserve to lose no matter how cheap you think it is... but some people have a method to their madness.

@ OP: Yup, I hate on street fighter IV when another douchebag ken player mashes his ultra combo in the middle of ataking a blockstring or while taking damage. That shit pisses me off so much, but I always blame the game for not only shitty netcode but extremely tight-frame combos.

 

[F'Angus]

I'm gonna hate people who repeatedly spam the same moves in fighting games...yes it's a legitimate move but come on people vary it a little.

Honestly, if you're getting caught out by the same move over and over again, then that just makes you pretty bad at fighting games

Well...um...hey...okay yeah, I suck.

 

[Therumancer]

so i was thinking in most games more so with shoot em ups theres always that weapon or class that is described as the noob class. take for instance modern warfare II when you could have a noob tube with explosive splash damage (cant remember perk name) and one man army (which replenished ammo on all your gear) so you could basically be a human artillery spam cannon. Another set of perks is marathon (unlimited sprint), lightweight (faster sprint) and commando (increased knife range) this made it possible to sprint round the map like the flash and just knife everyone

my question is do you think these perk and weapon combinations are cheating or do you think its merely making the most of what the developer has put in the game?

personally my opinion is that if its fun then do it, in shoot em ups in not there to get a good K/D im there to have fun and sprinting round a map like usain bolt on amphetamines is alot of fun. if it pisses someone of then they have to deal with it and if they take a game that seriously that they cant have fun unless they are MVP every game then its their loss

I tend to see this kind of thing as exploiting (as opposed to cheating) and that's not a good thing, even if the developers build in the exploits. The guys doing things like this in many cases do it specifically to annoy other players through min-maxing their set up in a way designed to pretty much harass anyone not doing the same kind of things.

The game/developers deserve blame, but so do the people using it.

I'll also be blunt in saying most "noobs" of this sort aren't actually "noobs" they are usually pretty experience gamers, which is how they figured out how to play the system with those combos. It's using these kind of cheap tactics combined with a degree of experience that tends to make them fairly overwhelming.

Most games have this kind of thing, and I've read some stuff talking about how developers do it intentionaally to make it easier for new players to get involved without getting wrecked. I believe the devs admitted this with Noob Toobing at one point, which is in part how the term got started. Of course such unbalanced tactics are a paticular problem when you consider that there is no way to make it so only a real noob can use them as a balancing factor.

I'll also say that while not a big shooter fan, I think the true hope for multiplayer in the genere is going to be them getting rid of pre-made maps (even if there is a lot of money to be made from them) and going entirely with random generation. While a lot can be said for playtested maps, 99% of the problems seem to come from people developing tactics based on familiarity with both the weapons and location. Not knowing the layout is also the noob's biggest weakness to an extent as well.

Random maps (and only random maps) would force people to choose more general loadouts, and improvise, as opposed to being able to load up with game breaking, situational loads that have an advantage in a specific map or based on familiarity.

Your superman-knifer for example only gets away with that crap because they know exactly where they are going, and can blaze around. If you had to figure out the map as you played it (with it always being unique) far less people are going to want to rely entirely on a knife because they aren't guaranteed to be able to instantly figure out how to get to the people they want to kill, and get away.

Such are my thoughts, while it would enrage some people, removing all premade maps from multiplayer would solve a ton of problems, it would introduce more, but I think the new problems would probably be less annoying.

 

[Eve Charm]

Eh thats why I miss Banjo kazooie nuts and bolts, Try and call someone a noob that builds something built for only that race and event then stomps everyone with it. people need to play that game more ;p

 

[Palademon]

I always hate when people complain when you use things the game allows you to.

It's not like a glitch or exploitaiton, people.
It's just having enough sense to choose not to suck!

Eh thats why I miss Banjo kazooie nuts and bolts, Try and call someone a noob that builds something built for only that race and event then stomps everyone with it. people need to play that game more ;p

I play that game every time I think of something interesting to make. The last thing I made was Lagann. I'm proud of some of my replicas.
One of my first vehicles was called the U.F.Oreo because it was a tiny circle with small propellers on top. Made it quite easy to win king of the knoll matches since everyone fought below me and couldn't hit me.

 

[hoboman29]

I think there's a fine line between using what you have at your disposal and "cheating" and in cases where it is an unfair advantage (such as the aforementioned noob tube spam) it's cheating and the developers should have taken the time to balance this stuff (not to sound like a person who rages when they lose.)

 

[SpaceBat]

I don't care how you spin it.

If you use Wesker in UMvC3, you are a knave and a cur, with no redeemable characteristics whatsoever.

Does he frighten you?

 

[Matt King]

i think using the "noob" weapon is okay if you are just that, new at the game, especially if it is a game where you unlock things the more you play, but if you are an experienced player and you use it i think it's a waste


extra credits did i think about that sort of thing once, if i wasn't so lazy i would link it

 

[CarlsonAndPeeters]

You know, I think blame goes both ways. Like, if a game is horribly unbalanced, blame the developer. But there are specific weapon-perk or character combinations that can be used, that's generally not the developer's fault.

Using the n00b-tube example, it quickly became established that grenade launchers and Danger Close were overpowered. Thusly, experienced players started complaining when their opponents used this cheap (but not cheating) tactic. Coming into MW2 late, I picked up the grenade launcher before being told (unkindly) that I was a n00b. So I stopped using it. Problem solved. In this way, gamers can kind of police what tactics are fair in the community, and if you agree, like I did, the problem fixes itself...for the most part.

 

[Eve Charm]

I always hate when people complain when you use things the game allows you to.

It's not like a glitch or exploitaiton, people.
It's just having enough sense to choose not to suck!

Eh thats why I miss Banjo kazooie nuts and bolts, Try and call someone a noob that builds something built for only that race and event then stomps everyone with it. people need to play that game more ;p

I play that game every time I think of something interesting to make. The last thing I made was Lagann. I'm proud of some of my replicas.
One of my first vehicles was called the U.F.Oreo because it was a tiny circle with small propellers on top. Made it quite easy to win king of the knoll matches since everyone fought below me and couldn't hit me.

Ya I really miss that game. All the builders got better from it playing online. I use to use my ground tank thing for those matchs till I saw how hovering and stuff could add to the effectivness. I think my final current one is an ufo type thing with all 11 launchers pointed at the ground to blow anyone up under me with missles and homming birds getting everything else. Could make people rage in that game *snicker*

 

[Kahunaburger]

You know, I think blame goes both ways. Like, if a game is horribly unbalanced, blame the developer. But there are specific weapon-perk or character combinations that can be used, that's generally not the developer's fault.

Using the n00b-tube example, it quickly became established that grenade launchers and Danger Close were overpowered. Thusly, experienced players started complaining when their opponents used this cheap (but not cheating) tactic. Coming into MW2 late, I picked up the grenade launcher before being told (unkindly) that I was a n00b. So I stopped using it. Problem solved. In this way, gamers can kind of police what tactics are fair in the community, and if you agree, like I did, the problem fixes itself...for the most part.

You can make a very good case that the grenade launcher works like it does in MW2 specifically to make it easier for new players to get kills. It's pretty consistent with the game's "let's make an uber-accessible multiplayer FPS!" design philosophy. A reasonably skilled (by Call of Duty standards) player can destroy with pretty much any weapon in that game, because combat in CoD is 90% map knowledge, 9% reflexes, and 1% TTK.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

You could cover all of your bases and hate both the player AND the game.

There will always be cheap exploits in competitive games and, even if you find it sickening, sometimes you have to sink to the level of some cheap idiot and show him that you can be even more cheap if only just to torment him.

yeah this.

i tend to use fun weapons that aren't overtly cheap or use combos that are near insta wins, but if some douche is being the biggest douche frat bags on the planet, i will unload on him pure fury of all that is cheap just to knock him down a few pegs at his own game. usually this causes them to rage quit hard, and i go back to my other weapons and enjoy the game.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

You know, I think blame goes both ways. Like, if a game is horribly unbalanced, blame the developer. But there are specific weapon-perk or character combinations that can be used, that's generally not the developer's fault.

Using the n00b-tube example, it quickly became established that grenade launchers and Danger Close were overpowered. Thusly, experienced players started complaining when their opponents used this cheap (but not cheating) tactic. Coming into MW2 late, I picked up the grenade launcher before being told (unkindly) that I was a n00b. So I stopped using it. Problem solved. In this way, gamers can kind of police what tactics are fair in the community, and if you agree, like I did, the problem fixes itself...for the most part.

You can make a very good case that the grenade launcher works like it does in MW2 specifically to make it easier for new players to get kills. It's pretty consistent with the game's "let's make an uber-accessible multiplayer FPS!" design philosophy. A reasonably skilled (by Call of Duty standards) player can destroy with pretty much any weapon in that game, because combat in CoD is 90% map knowledge, 9% reflexes, and 1% TTK.

they could nerf the grenade launcher in quite a few ways though, yet they chose not to (annoyingly)

examples:

have a timed delay, so it isn't a insta win button that actually takes some skill to plan out where to fire it (guessing an enemies next 4-5 steps or guessing if the guy you just flanked will switch rooms)

or they could have it where the longer you hold down the button the more power it gets (not realistic, but oh well) so if you wanna do that "hit the spawn in the first second for 4 kills" shit, your gonna have to charge it up while everyone is already running out scattering.


just a couple off the top of my head....noob tubes are usually player banned/frowned in nearly every game because they are all made the same way by developers, they should take a hint and nerf em in such a way.

 

[Kahunaburger]

You know, I think blame goes both ways. Like, if a game is horribly unbalanced, blame the developer. But there are specific weapon-perk or character combinations that can be used, that's generally not the developer's fault.

Using the n00b-tube example, it quickly became established that grenade launchers and Danger Close were overpowered. Thusly, experienced players started complaining when their opponents used this cheap (but not cheating) tactic. Coming into MW2 late, I picked up the grenade launcher before being told (unkindly) that I was a n00b. So I stopped using it. Problem solved. In this way, gamers can kind of police what tactics are fair in the community, and if you agree, like I did, the problem fixes itself...for the most part.

You can make a very good case that the grenade launcher works like it does in MW2 specifically to make it easier for new players to get kills. It's pretty consistent with the game's "let's make an uber-accessible multiplayer FPS!" design philosophy. A reasonably skilled (by Call of Duty standards) player can destroy with pretty much any weapon in that game, because combat in CoD is 90% map knowledge, 9% reflexes, and 1% TTK.

they could nerf the grenade launcher in quite a few ways though, yet they chose not to (annoyingly)

examples:

have a timed delay, so it isn't a insta win button that actually takes some skill to plan out where to fire it (guessing an enemies next 4-5 steps or guessing if the guy you just flanked will switch rooms)

or they could have it where the longer you hold down the button the more power it gets (not realistic, but oh well) so if you wanna do that "hit the spawn in the first second for 4 kills" shit, your gonna have to charge it up while everyone is already running out scattering.


just a couple off the top of my head....noob tubes are usually player banned/frowned in nearly every game because they are all made the same way by developers, they should take a hint and nerf em in such a way.

I do agree with all those things - I don't think the grenade launcher is balanced in MW2 at all. It's more that after playing quite a bit of MW2, followed by quite a bit of BFBC2, TF2, and T:A, I don't think that Activision's goal is to make a balanced shooter that's viable for competitive play. I think that their main goal is to make an accessible, addictive shooter.