Don't wear the American Flag on your shirt in California schools, you might offend the Mexicans.

[McMullen]

...

Yep, that's the kind of hamhanded, clumsy, and backwards solution I've come to expect from public schools. Business as usual.

 

[Artheval_Pe]

This gets to the root of cultural assimilation, and our problems with it. Basically we have people coming into the US who want to draw the benefits of US citizenship, but do not actually want to be Americans.

Yeah, or maybe in that case, people coming into the US from abroad to study and who would just like to be able, just once a year, to enjoy their national holiday without americans bothering them about how america is more important and much greater than their country ?
It has nothing to do with cultural assimilation, especially in an international school where people are just there for a few years and for some of them will go back home anyway. Don't mix up temporary stay in the US, permanent residence and citizenship.

I can see why the courts made the ruling that they did, after all with all of the other precedents established over a period of time, such as saying you have to adapt to someone who doesn't want to speak English or whatever, it gives weight to arguements by immigrants having the right to force everyone to adapt to their whims, and to be offended by something like The American flag.

1- I do agree that not having one official language is a problem, it indeed prevents to a large extent interactions between newcomers and the rest of the population, and it fuels communautarism.
However, in the case we're talking about, the problem is not the American flag. The problem is a bunch of students wearing the flag in a manner specifically intended by them to piss off the mexicans. It's not about the flag itself, it' about the way people are using it.

And the thing we're talking about is not forbidding US flags in schools, it's about asking students who wanted to use US flags to be mean to other students, to hide the flags they were wearing, because, and only because they wanted to use it for that specific purpose.

After all we've established the precedent that you don't have to be culturally American, or even support the country to live here, draw benefits, and even have a say in how the goverment operates.

Everyone pay taxes in the US, so nobody doesn't support the country while living in the US. And I know some people who come from South-America, and most of them are very hard workers who are very good at their job and who do a lot of extra hours.

Plus, can you tell me what "being culturally American" even means ?

 

[Therumancer]

This gets to the root of cultural assimilation, and our problems with it. Basically we have people coming into the US who want to draw the benefits of US citizenship, but do not actually want to be Americans.

Yeah, or maybe in that case, people coming into the US from abroad to study and who would just like to be able, just once a year, to enjoy their national holiday without americans bothering them about how america is more important and much greater than their country ?
It has nothing to do with cultural assimilation, especially in an international school where people are just there for a few years and for some of them will go back home anyway. Don't mix up temporary stay in the US, permanent residence and citizenship.

If they are citizens, this is their country... period. Arguements about how "We don't like the US acting like it's better than our country" pretty much shows that they aren't properly assimilated into America. If they want to be Mexican, they belong in Mexico.

For people visiting the country from outside, those that are here on a temporary basis are being even worse about it since they are guests. We're nice enough to let them use our schools and actually stay here for a while while they do whatever it is they want to do, they shouldn't be crying about us wearing our own flag. It would be like me going down to Mexico and saying "please remove all instances of the Mexican flag, I find it offensive while I am staying here in Mexico" which is absolutly ridiculous.

No matter what the logic trying to be used to justify it is, there are no circumstances in which wearing a US flag in the US should be forbidden, for anyone, anywhere. If some students are finding a way to be offensive about it, one deals with those students for their behavior, one does not ban the display of the flag itself. To be honest though, I very much doubt anyone was being offensive to begin with. Anyone who becomes offended by the US Flag, does not belong in the US... period.

The actual issue is that we've gotten so out of control on the liberties front, that this kind of complaint became viable, and now we see people trying to exploit it in order to get attention.

Frankly, if you want to celebrate Cinco Del Mayo, by all means do it, but don't get in anyone else's way with it. If you do, and demand that people need to take down their own flags for it in their own country, then your the problem, not the people flying the flags. I'd defend the people in question if they were being told they couldn't celebrate the holiday at all, quietly, on their own, but when it comes as far as banning US flags in US schools... that's inexcusable under any circumstances.

As the OP said, it's like demanding that people in the UK remove the British flag during The 4th Of July so as not to offend visiting Americans or those who might have taken up residence there.

With those who aren't citizens, and are somehow using our schools, it's even more straighforward. You don't even have the issue of having to remove citizenship, they need an impromptu ride back to the border and a heave over it. Nothing they could be doing here in any way justifies saying we can't fly our own flag for fear of offending them. If we bother them so much, then by all means they can GTFO.

 

[DoubleTime]

lol americans

not wearing their flag because it might ofend someone? that just stupid. Specially considering that every friking american movie, tv series, video game, etc MUST HAVE BY LAW their flag for a few seconds on screen (not necesary by law, but it's always there).

also why is the big need to always sue absolutly everything? they were ASKED, not forced or punished. ¬¬

Unfortunately "asked" in American schools is usually more the sort of "asked" that you are expected to comply with before it becomes an order. If they don't like what you're doing, they'll ask, when you refuse, they'll tell you, and if you refuse again, they'll punish you.

It's so stupid...

kind of funny when you think that americans are talking about being the free world and how much freedom they, all the time. But i live in Argentina and in my school we used to have a lot more freedom

Yeah, the dichotomy is jarring. It sort of harkens to the fact that kids have limited rights, and when you attend a school you are generally required to surrender some of those rights to the school's rules, especially if you in a representative capacity like a cheerleader or part of the student council, etc.

 

[WeAreStevo]

It's California, what can you do? They are the most anti-US government in North America.

*shrugs*

But schools are schools and they need to react specifically to their students. Since it was a problem before, they needed to do something.

Really? We are? That's news to me and I live in the most liberal part of California...

Facts or it didn't happen.

That's my opinion, not a "fact". If it was a fact I would have cited it, of that you can be sure.

Though, you cannot deny that when it comes to making laws that contradict the Constitution, they are top dog, at least as far as States go.

See, again I am not entirely sure you are correct.

Yes. We make some stupid laws that I don't agree with.

But are they entirely against the constitution? I don't think so...

If you're insinuating that the simple fact that we're viewed as "liberal" (of course excluding the entirety of Mid Cal and most of So Cal) and therefore we must be against the constitution, then I can understand, but again, I am not entirely clear where you're getting your info from.

Unless you mean things like Prop 8 which was CLEARLY unconstitutional, in which case I whole heartedly agree.

 

[TheTurtleMan]

I think that the school has their reasons. According to what other people mentioned, there had been a situation because of a flag dispute or something so they probably just didn't want to repeat the past.

The reason that I know that the school isn't trying to be overly politically correct is because I guarantee that the school still had the pledge of allegience that day. An anthem that plays where the majority of people in school stand up and recite a pledge is much more pro america than just wearing a shirt. The potential problem lies with the students not the school.

 

[Arfonious]

Cool story bro, in Sweden we can't even sing the national anthem without someone getting offended or accuses the singers for racism.

 

[Arsen]

Still envious of all the territory acquired through warfare, aren't we Mexico?

 

[Callate]

How do you feel about this?

I side with the school, because I understand how decisions like this are made.

Wearing the flag is not inflammatory per se. But wearing the flag specifically to be jerks to another group? That's different. The students weren't trying to show patriotric pride. They were mocking, taunting, or otherwise going after the patriotic pride of others...

Thank you. Yes.

There is a difference between just displaying a flag and using it to make others feel like threatened, unwelcome outsiders in a school where everyone is supposed to feel safe so they have an environment where they can focus on learning.

The kind of people who use "patriotism" as a club sicken me.

 

[Artheval_Pe]

It would be like me going down to Mexico and saying "please remove all instances of the Mexican flag, I find it offensive while I am staying here in Mexico" which is absolutly ridiculous.

First, you are missing the point. Nobody ever banned the US flag. The school asked two particular students, during only one particular day, to change T-shirts because they had a history of harrasing mexican students using the US flag. It was only a matter related to the specific use of a piece of clothing by two students. It could have been pink T-shirts, it would have been the same thing. The offense was in the use of the clothing under specific circonstances, not in the fact that the clothing displayed the US flag.
As far as the rest of the flags in the schools are concerned, they stayed where they were, for what we know.

And as far of the display of the flags on pieces of clothing, it is precisely forbidden by the flag code so it should be banned on any clothing altogether if people are to use the US flag properly, but it's another matter.

The actual issue is that we've gotten so out of control on the liberties front, that this kind of complaint became viable, and now we see people trying to exploit it in order to get attention.

No. Check your facts. Nobody "complained" (not even the mexicans for what we know). The only "complaint" in this case is from the kids who were wearing the flags and their parents.

For people visiting the country from outside, those that are here on a temporary basis are being even worse about it since they are guests. We're nice enough to let them use our schools and actually stay here for a while while they do whatever it is they want to do, they shouldn't be crying about us wearing our own flag. [...]
With those who aren't citizens, and are somehow using our schools, it's even more straighforward. You don't even have the issue of having to remove citizenship, they need an impromptu ride back to the border and a heave over it. Nothing they could be doing here in any way justifies saying we can't fly our own flag for fear of offending them. If we bother them so much, then by all means they can GTFO.

No, it's not "We're nice enough to let them stay". They have the right to travel and stay in the US under international law as a basic human right. Now, that's a right that is controled and knows some limitations under the juridiction of the US governement, but don't be so fond of your country as to think that it is a priviledge. It's an act of reciprocity with their country of origin which in exchange let american stay.
And by the way, they are using not "your" schools, but schools that happend to be located in the US and for which they pay for.

Also remember that the soil of a country do not "belong" to it. It is the territory on which the State exerts its sovereignty, which means that if the State decided to give the right to someone to live there, his right to be there is as good and valid as the right of anyone born in the US.

And as far as "removing citizenship" is concerned, it's an idea as antiamerican as it can be. Take another look at what's written on the west facade of the US supreme court building and think about it... And remember that if all immigrants in the US had to loose their citizenship, you would also loose it.

If they are citizens, this is their country... period. Arguements about how "We don't like the US acting like it's better than our country" pretty much shows that they aren't properly assimilated into America. If they want to be Mexican, they belong in Mexico

Again, we are talking about mexican international students, not citizens. And even americans shouldn't act like that.
And no, they can be Mexican and live in the US. That's called permanent residence, and it's often required for work... because you may not have experienced it, but we actually happen to live in a globalized world where we are required to work all over the world...

 

[Vault Citizen]

Huh, just re read the article again properly and no where did it actually say violence broke out, ok I take what I said back (I too love the Steve Hughes offended video), and as many of you say its their own country.

Why they couldn't just both exist in the same space without threatening each other is beyond me.

 

[Chaos Inverse]

I can understand wanting to try and stop violence before it happens, but seriously you couldn't find any other way than banning wearing shirts with flags on them? I'm sorry but being told I couldn't wear a shirt with my flag(in my country) because it offends someone? That doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Mr C]

Even though this happened on May 5th of this year, CNN just ran the article now, likely due to the legal proceedings taking so long.

A group of white students wearing T-Shirts bearing the American flag were asked to turn their shirts inside out due to the possibility it could have been inflammatory to the Mexican students at the school on Cinco de Mayo.

The students and their families sued the school on the grounds that their freedom of speech had been infringed and the Judge in Northern California sided with the school.


How do you feel about this?

Im my personal opinion, I believe that when wearing your nation's flag on your own soil becomes "inflammatory" and unacceptable, the problem is not with the students or the t-shirts or the flag, it is with the Judge and the schools. The thought that someone can immigrate from another country and have a holiday from that country (which in the case of Cinco de Mayo, the Mexicans in Mexico don't even really celebrate like we do in the U.S.) be grounds for their host country having to hide their flag, we have a problem on many levels. If I were to go to Great Britain and demand that the British flag be covered because it might offend me on the 4th of July, it would cause an uproar.


The article in question can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/opinion/navarrette-t-shirt-controversy/

I would like to think you wishing our flag hidden would cause an uproar. However, in some parts of the UK people were told they were not allowed to put up St. George's flag or the Union Jack in case they offended our Muslim residents. Who of course are welcome to leave if they do not like the country. Families of soldiers fighting in the middle east were also given this instruction, makes you fucking sick.

 

[kuolonen]

Cool story bro, in Sweden we can't even sing the national anthem without someone getting offended or accuses the singers for racism.

Yeah this sort of thing really isnt anything new in Europe.

I for one wish to welcome our american friends to the wonderful fringe benefits of the amazing club of todays multiculturalism. For the record by that I mean the idea the current population must always bow before the newcomers, what with US having been founded like 200 years ago by immigrants. So in a funny way its the same as back then.

 

[TorqueConverter]

Oh yeah, I wore a Gravity Kills T-shirt the day of the 9/11 attacks. I and another person wearing a shirt with a plane on it received flak as if my taste in music and his wardrobe malfunction were malicious in intent. These things happen and even if the intent is not genuinely malicious, you must have the common sense to be polite enough to turn your shirt inside out with or without being asked by a school figure.

Totally.

I wore a trench coat to school the day after Colombine and I got searched by the police on the way into school. I also was told that I could not wear it on school grounds.

Hell, more recently while in England coming back to the US my friend was asked to turn his Vandals shirt inside out because it had a picture of an AK-47. They said it would possibly "incite violence."

This kind of stuff happens all the time. I didn't complain, I understood why they were upset. I think people just hear "Mexican" and get completely bent out of shape

Hahahh, one of my buddies was searched and had his Metallica Kill Em All and I believe a Pantera CD confiscated after the Columbine shootings as he fit the demographic of "non preppy" at his school. As an inconvenience as it may be to the innocent the public schools do have to do their job to prevent conflict among students and, you know, shootings and such.

 

[Tiamattt]

So because of this, now people in general, maybe at College.. or other social places won't be able to have an American Flag on their shirt due to people being offended. As much as I side with what's right, I think this was over the top.

The Hispanic should of just ignored them. Problem these days is that offense comes easily, and some will take advantage of that. Sadly, now everyone who actually wants to wear a shirt for say the 4th of July cannot do so now thus this case can be a reference to other cases support in why people shouldn't wear this and that.

It'd be like if someone wore a female pro shirt and mocked me, that I got the school plus Judge to take their shirts down. Let people wear what they want, and get those individuals alone in trouble, rather then banning the shirts with American flags on them altogether.

^But that's the problem though, if the shirts are ok what do you punish the individuals for? Unless you're willing to wait until they start something serious, which case damage would be already before any punishment could be given out.

As for people in general I'm sure wearing the flag is just fine, just as long as you're not specifically wearing it just to try to cause trouble. And if you do, well don't be surprised if the place you're planning to do this doesn't take measures to prevent said trouble from happening.

 

[DaJoW]

it's all well and good for immigrants to parade around the streets proclaiming their religious dominance, waving their flags and chanting death to the west.

wtf?
yeah, cuz every immigrant is a terrorist cell waiting to happen...

From what I've seen over the years, they've yet to prove me wrong.

Had a lot of Polish terrorist attacks have you? With 400,000 of them I bet it's a nightmare.

OT: As I recall, this was done because a) there had been trouble the year before and b) the kids were known troublemakers. We're also not talking an American flag on their sleeve, they were more or less dressed in the American flag. Looks like an obvious attempt to be provocative to me, giving the school every right to try and stop it.

 

[lRookiel]

so wearing your OWN country's flag IN THAT COUNTRY could offend the people who aren't native yet want to live there?
why would it offend them? they obviously like america, so why dislike the flag?

and i really hate it when people say stuff like "don't do that, you could insult [insert group here]. look, that guy over there is one, and he isnt even LOOKING at you. he's staring at his food! you're obviously causing him great emotional pain to the brink of-"
no.
no!
no, people. those mexicans. did they complain? no. so why in all of the godly fuck do you think they care!

This. pretty much just explains what I think, good now I dont have to write it all out, thanks TrilbyWill :3