My God you're right, Dr Who only came back after Grade got a lordship. A clear conspiracy!Ninjamedic said:
Dr Who Christmas Special 2013
- Thread starter Albino Boo
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Overall, I was pleased with the episode ...at first. Don't get me wrong, the episode alone was pretty good, but as I thought more and more about it, and after going back and watching a few earlier episodes, it seems like they opened up a plothole.
If The Silents (the alien race) were priests of the Papal Mainframe (later called The Silence), then why was a rogue sect controlling the course of human history? In "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon" we are led to believe that they were simply a parasitic race who didn't do things for themselves.
This is at odds with the idea that they are genetically engineered priests who are on a mission for a sect of The Silence to stop the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore. It boils down to "if they needed a space suit for River, then why did they have to control humanity into making one when they could have just popped down to the corner store of the future and picked one up? They have time travel, and space travel after all."
If The Silents (the alien race) were priests of the Papal Mainframe (later called The Silence), then why was a rogue sect controlling the course of human history? In "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon" we are led to believe that they were simply a parasitic race who didn't do things for themselves.
This is at odds with the idea that they are genetically engineered priests who are on a mission for a sect of The Silence to stop the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore. It boils down to "if they needed a space suit for River, then why did they have to control humanity into making one when they could have just popped down to the corner store of the future and picked one up? They have time travel, and space travel after all."
I have two queries about what happened to Clara in this episode.
1. Why was she not affected when she was grabbed by the angel?
2. How come she in some way remembers the silence? When she sees one the second time she says something along the lunes of 'how come I remember you but have no idea what you are?' (Can't remember the exact wording)
I will rewatch but was it stated how long he had been in Christmas when he died? Obviously he says 300 years when Clara first returned but I didn't pickup another mention. I'm just curious as to how old he was supposed to be.
All in all though I liked the episode but agree it certainly felt rushed and things were pigeonholed in for some fan service. Agree with the consensus though Handles was brilliant.
1. Why was she not affected when she was grabbed by the angel?
2. How come she in some way remembers the silence? When she sees one the second time she says something along the lunes of 'how come I remember you but have no idea what you are?' (Can't remember the exact wording)
I will rewatch but was it stated how long he had been in Christmas when he died? Obviously he says 300 years when Clara first returned but I didn't pickup another mention. I'm just curious as to how old he was supposed to be.
All in all though I liked the episode but agree it certainly felt rushed and things were pigeonholed in for some fan service. Agree with the consensus though Handles was brilliant.
For those of you complaining about not getting nearly enough Capaldi in this episode, when held up against some other regenerations, he was positively chatty.
Regeneration spoilers incoming. Nothing big, but if you're trying to avoid even the most vague details, don't click.
Doctors 2-5:
6th Doctor:
7th Doctor
8th Doctor
War Doctor
9th Doctor
10th Doctor
11th Doctor
Then, since it's been talked about on this forum already, I won't spoiler it, Capaldi got "Kidneys! I've got new kidneys! I don't like the color...We're probably crashing. Stay calm. Just one question...do you happen to know how to fly this thing?" So, while people are complaining about getting too little Capaldi, we really got more of him than we did in most other regeneration episodes. We got more from him than the first six Doctors combined.
My problem with the approach taken with the new Doctors is the feeling that he is actually going somewhere. From Tennant's "I don't want to go" to Smith's waxing philosophical and the whole "Raggety man. Goodnight," bit. The 10th Doctor eve said, in the "Born Again" Children In Need special that takes place right after his regeneration, "I was dying. To save my own life, I changed my body, every single cell, but it's still me." It's generally not a traumatic experience (though there have been exceptions), so it shouldn't be a cause of much fear for him. I'd think he'd be excited at the prospect of finally becoming a ginger, even. It's turned into more of a sentimental farewell for the actor than a natural progression of the character, which is what it used to be. It gets drawn out and sappy and overly long.
In short, I got just as much Capaldi as I expected, but the episode itself was a bit disappointing.
Regeneration spoilers incoming. Nothing big, but if you're trying to avoid even the most vague details, don't click.
Doctors 2-5:
We only caught a quick glimpse of Patrick Troughton at the en of Tenth Planet. We didn't get to see Jon Pertwee until the following season. Tom Baker appeared without a word in the closing seconds of Planet Of The Spiders. Peter Davison barely had enough time to smile and sit up before the closing credits on Logopolis started to roll.
6th Doctor:
Colin Baker got a few lines: "You were expecting someone else?" "Three 'I's in one breath makes you sound quite an egotistical young lady." "Change, my dear. And, it seems, not a moment too soon." Though, to be fair, he did have a full four episode serial after that, prior to the season break.
7th Doctor
Sylvester McCoy got a full episode following his regeneration, due to the sudden departure of Colin Baker
8th Doctor
Not really much of a spoiler, but just to be safe and consistent. Paul McGann had roughly 3/4 of a movie.
War Doctor
John Hurt, if you want to count him, got a whopping 3 words post-regeneration: "Doctor no more." Unless you want to count his first appearance, in which case, he got "What I did, I did without choice...In the name of peace and sanity."
9th Doctor
Again, not terribly spoilerish, but we never got to hear Eccleston immediately post-regeneration, so he pretty much got a full-episode introduction in Rose.
10th Doctor
The first regeneration we see in New Who. David Tennant got the regular soliloquy of "Hello. Okay...New teeth. That's weird. Where were we? Oh, that's right. Barcelona!"
11th Doctor
We're recent enough that spoilers probably aren't all that necessary, but just to be safe. Matt Smith got "Legs! I've still got legs! Good! Arms! Hands! Fingers...lots of fingers...Ears...Eyes...two...Nose...and I've had worse...Chin...blimey...Hair...I'm a girl! No! No, I'm not a girl, and I'm still not ginger! Something...something important...I'm...I'm, I'm...Haha! Crashing! Haha! GERONIMO!" So, pretty chatty there.
Then, since it's been talked about on this forum already, I won't spoiler it, Capaldi got "Kidneys! I've got new kidneys! I don't like the color...We're probably crashing. Stay calm. Just one question...do you happen to know how to fly this thing?" So, while people are complaining about getting too little Capaldi, we really got more of him than we did in most other regeneration episodes. We got more from him than the first six Doctors combined.
My problem with the approach taken with the new Doctors is the feeling that he is actually going somewhere. From Tennant's "I don't want to go" to Smith's waxing philosophical and the whole "Raggety man. Goodnight," bit. The 10th Doctor eve said, in the "Born Again" Children In Need special that takes place right after his regeneration, "I was dying. To save my own life, I changed my body, every single cell, but it's still me." It's generally not a traumatic experience (though there have been exceptions), so it shouldn't be a cause of much fear for him. I'd think he'd be excited at the prospect of finally becoming a ginger, even. It's turned into more of a sentimental farewell for the actor than a natural progression of the character, which is what it used to be. It gets drawn out and sappy and overly long.
In short, I got just as much Capaldi as I expected, but the episode itself was a bit disappointing.
I could tolerate the quirks and whatnot until the ending. That deus ex machinae is worse than the shit RTD pulled. "Oh, the Doctor is running out of regenerations, maybe we can make a big epic quest in his search for new lives. Maybe he can finally return to Gallifrey? Nope, just let the Time Lords magically give it to him and let it be done within two minutes."
I'm sorry, nothing will ever defeat Gollum Doctor getting magical Jesus powers after the whole world thinks about him really hard.Arkhangelsk said:
Getting a new regeneration cycle was floated back in The Five Doctors with the Master. Gallifrey needs the Doctor to lead them back out, so they gifted him with a new cycle. Yup, it's a big ol' deus ex machina, but it's using previously established Continuity.
Oh God, why did you have to remind me of that tripe? That was the worst episode of Doctor Who ever made.Netrigan said:
That's all nice and well, but the fact that the Time Lords could barely just communicate through the cracks, but now they could force open a new one at a specific time and place, even though it was the TARDIS that caused the cracks, and then just shoot out this ray that gives the Doctor the power to kill all his enemies at once...sorry, but that's just the laziest writing. They had all his enemies put there only for him to get rid of them all at once. No cunning plan, no wit, no nothing. I get that this was to be the Doctor giving up and admitting defeat, but why do the writers have to write themselves into such corners all the time?
That's one of the problems I have, more often than not The Doctor is the only one who's allowed to be clever. He's had some truly brilliant companions, but their helping gets degraded to deus ex machinae activators. (Like Rose with the time vortex, Martha with the Space Jesus thing, Amy with summoning him at the wedding.)
I wish this show could be more intellectual, mysterious and thought-provoking, but too often it just feels like a showreel for how "awesome" the Doctor is.
And for some reason, I'm still a fan of the show.
I'll say this, my favorite episodes are when there is actual loss, because then the writing feels more sincere and thought out, because then they're not copping out. I would have loved it if the Doctor failed at saving Trenzilore and escaped, given his speech about how everything has to end and Clara's heartfelt talk about how he needs to choose himself over others eventually.
I loved the episode but found myself disappointed with the last 5 minutes, despite Matt Smiths superbly emotional send off. For a number of reasons I feel they really missed an opportunity to do something special.
So they poured some budget into the massive regeneration explosion and exited with a beautiful CGI fade to dust. Goodbye Matt Smith. We then land in the aftermath of the explosion with the survivors in the carnage and a lost and confused Clara. She hangs up the phone on the Tardis (An odd directoral decision, the phone wasn't a beat and had no relevance) and enters it there after. End scene, end set, end extras, end special effects, end budget, back in the tardis. The next scene could have been shot anytime in any continuity.
A pair of legs are seen walking up the stairs. Who is this mysterious figure? My anticipation is up, this is going to be a really strong entrance of the next doctor. The costume, the character, the age, the attitude, all laid to bare in a few minutes of glorious screen time. Out with the slaptick, in with the smouldering, darker, older, more mature doctor. Oh, no wait, its still Matt Smith. OKAY. Its your show, you want to give him more of a send off, okay I get it. Meh its a weak editorial decision but lets roll with it. Matt Smith gets to deliver an emotional goodbye, some lovely dialogue. Awww, young Amy. Of course, the actress is grown up now, so hey, lets just stick a little blond girl in a red hat, obscure her face and hope nobody notices (WHAT?!?). Grown Up Amy. Bit odd, but then the life of young Amy had The Doctor as her imaginary friend, its probably fitting the doctor has an imaginary Amy at the end of his. More feels.
Now I liked to quick transition into the leering older man. Given the build up it was a nice contrasting beat. Oooooooh this is going to be good, he's totally going to say something clever and Sherlockesque.
But the few seconds that followed, what the hell was that. Thrashing around, questioning the colour of his kidneys and not being able to fly the tardis? Back to slap stick already. What sort of entrance is that! We have DONE slap stick. I like Matt Smiths Doctor and I don't think he deserves the hate allot of people throw his way, but its time to lay down the slap stick Doctor and have somebody more serious again. Argh.
So yeah, that last scene, so much potential, so jarringly missed. The last scene wasn't needed at all. The Doctor already had an emotional beat as an ancient man in the chair by the crack, unable to pull a cracker, then getting his shot of regeneration juice. The script and Matt Smiths acting already did the exit justice. End it there on that jubilation of the Old doctor discovering he would live again.
So they poured some budget into the massive regeneration explosion and exited with a beautiful CGI fade to dust. Goodbye Matt Smith. We then land in the aftermath of the explosion with the survivors in the carnage and a lost and confused Clara. She hangs up the phone on the Tardis (An odd directoral decision, the phone wasn't a beat and had no relevance) and enters it there after. End scene, end set, end extras, end special effects, end budget, back in the tardis. The next scene could have been shot anytime in any continuity.
A pair of legs are seen walking up the stairs. Who is this mysterious figure? My anticipation is up, this is going to be a really strong entrance of the next doctor. The costume, the character, the age, the attitude, all laid to bare in a few minutes of glorious screen time. Out with the slaptick, in with the smouldering, darker, older, more mature doctor. Oh, no wait, its still Matt Smith. OKAY. Its your show, you want to give him more of a send off, okay I get it. Meh its a weak editorial decision but lets roll with it. Matt Smith gets to deliver an emotional goodbye, some lovely dialogue. Awww, young Amy. Of course, the actress is grown up now, so hey, lets just stick a little blond girl in a red hat, obscure her face and hope nobody notices (WHAT?!?). Grown Up Amy. Bit odd, but then the life of young Amy had The Doctor as her imaginary friend, its probably fitting the doctor has an imaginary Amy at the end of his. More feels.
Now I liked to quick transition into the leering older man. Given the build up it was a nice contrasting beat. Oooooooh this is going to be good, he's totally going to say something clever and Sherlockesque.
But the few seconds that followed, what the hell was that. Thrashing around, questioning the colour of his kidneys and not being able to fly the tardis? Back to slap stick already. What sort of entrance is that! We have DONE slap stick. I like Matt Smiths Doctor and I don't think he deserves the hate allot of people throw his way, but its time to lay down the slap stick Doctor and have somebody more serious again. Argh.
So yeah, that last scene, so much potential, so jarringly missed. The last scene wasn't needed at all. The Doctor already had an emotional beat as an ancient man in the chair by the crack, unable to pull a cracker, then getting his shot of regeneration juice. The script and Matt Smiths acting already did the exit justice. End it there on that jubilation of the Old doctor discovering he would live again.
Its not the amount of Capaldi, its the totally lack of any discernible character beat, other than 'he's old' and apparently, a Vain Moronfreakydan said:
You do realize how rare it is that the Doctor gets a discernible character beat in the post-regeneration cameo? Smith and Colin Baker, and both of those probably only because their first episode had already been worked out. Baker debuted the following week, while Moffat had plenty of lead time to work out what he wanted to do with Smith. All the other classic Doctors had silent cameos, while Tennant pretty much just completed one of the last thoughts of Eccelston and became the first to notice something different about his body.BunnyKillBot said:
Mostly there's no discernible character beat because they haven't worked out exactly who he's going to be, since the Doctor's personality is largely defined by the actor. Same was true of Tennant's Doctor with his extended debut scene was shot after "The Christmas Invasion" when they had nailed down his character.
Oh...apparently Weeping Angels can be defeated with mirrors (I'd speculated that they could)...only nobody had ever bothered doing that before.
Not sure if it was addressed in the episode or if the "I shaved my head so I could bring my TARDIS key" thing was just a throwaway, but don't the Daleks have the key he left with SpaceLadyPope now? Though I suppose she could have given it back in the 300+ years the Doctor was in Christmastown.
What was the point of Handles finding a time to tell the Doctor to pick up the phone, again? He never did, and when Clara picked up the phone, nothing happened anyways.
Honestly, I don't care what is or was, I care about a great production being all that it can be. With Who in particular, i don't care about Canon or continuity because its already so full of holes the 'enthusiasts' argue semantics while the boat has already sunk. Regeneration, get people salivating now for the series next year. And nay i disagree, they know exactly what 'kind' of Doctor he will be.Netrigan said:
Sorry I wasn't clear and there was I misunderstanding. I meant that as in 'not saying that Moffat isn't keeping up the traditions of sucky episodes set by RTD in Timelords'.albino boo said:
It was ok, underwhelming for a Regeneration, over stuffed with explanation to a point of anyone coming in for the first time would be sure they were speaking Welsh and so pleased with itself in parts that it almost stung, but Matt Smith Pulled off such a tour de Force that it managed to just about save it.
I think the problem with Moffat is, bar the fact he had IMPOSSIBLE shoes to fill and the fact he writes women with all the complexity of a Japanese fighting game, he has tried to make the show more like a long american series with a continuing plot like a Breaking Bad or a Dexter. The problem is while he is amazing at short shows (The Season 4 library saga being still the best episodes) he lacks the chops for Long grandiose Season spanning stories that a Vince Gilligan or even a Joss Whedon who manage to both reinforce and remind you of plot points with enough subtlety that when 3 seasons later they suddenly matter you either can remember them or don't hate them.
This is why the first 4 seasons worked well, While there were continuing themes and plots all the way though the fact was they were nearly hidden until the last few episodes in which time they had been burned into your mind enough that they mattered and you cared for the characters when the time came. Moffat on the other hand has all the subtlety of a Blunderbuss and while his shorter arcs work very well (see Sherlock) the longer running shows tend to either repeat constantly or are so over looked that when, 10 shows later you are supposed to care, don't mean a crap.
Holding back some plot points for later shows works only when you either make the veiwer feel like other plot points were still enough of a pay off, This is something RTD managed and something Moffat is awful at. But we will just have to hope he sort of learns his lesions.
Oh and Please ask RTD how to write women. Clara=Amy while none of the 3 female RTD ones did. Hell he made me not only LIKE Catherine Tate, something i once thought possible only by the use of water boarding, but consider Donna my favorite assistant
I think the problem with Moffat is, bar the fact he had IMPOSSIBLE shoes to fill and the fact he writes women with all the complexity of a Japanese fighting game, he has tried to make the show more like a long american series with a continuing plot like a Breaking Bad or a Dexter. The problem is while he is amazing at short shows (The Season 4 library saga being still the best episodes) he lacks the chops for Long grandiose Season spanning stories that a Vince Gilligan or even a Joss Whedon who manage to both reinforce and remind you of plot points with enough subtlety that when 3 seasons later they suddenly matter you either can remember them or don't hate them.
This is why the first 4 seasons worked well, While there were continuing themes and plots all the way though the fact was they were nearly hidden until the last few episodes in which time they had been burned into your mind enough that they mattered and you cared for the characters when the time came. Moffat on the other hand has all the subtlety of a Blunderbuss and while his shorter arcs work very well (see Sherlock) the longer running shows tend to either repeat constantly or are so over looked that when, 10 shows later you are supposed to care, don't mean a crap.
Holding back some plot points for later shows works only when you either make the veiwer feel like other plot points were still enough of a pay off, This is something RTD managed and something Moffat is awful at. But we will just have to hope he sort of learns his lesions.
Oh and Please ask RTD how to write women. Clara=Amy while none of the 3 female RTD ones did. Hell he made me not only LIKE Catherine Tate, something i once thought possible only by the use of water boarding, but consider Donna my favorite assistant
Loki_The_Good said:
He was willing to stay in the anti matter universe forever or die trying to kill omega. If he had stayed that would have been 8 generations he would have been sacrificing not just one.
BrotherRool said:
Yup that pretty much covers it, another sucky Christmas episode.
Fucking wooden cybermen? What the hell was that?
I'm finding it hard to express everything I dislike about moffat, so I'll put it here:
He writes shitey dialogue that almost never resembles anything I'd expect a human being to say.
He especially can't write women.
His plots spend ages on setup only to handwave them at the last minute
Most of them are Mary Sues
His characters experience massive traumatic events but aren't fazed 5 minutes later
No character arcs except your basic face-heel turns or heel-face turns.
I'm finding it hard to express everything I dislike about moffat, so I'll put it here:
He writes shitey dialogue that almost never resembles anything I'd expect a human being to say.
He especially can't write women.
His plots spend ages on setup only to handwave them at the last minute
Most of them are Mary Sues
His characters experience massive traumatic events but aren't fazed 5 minutes later
No character arcs except your basic face-heel turns or heel-face turns.