Draconian DRM and how it can kill sales

[Waaghpowa]

It's been said many times in the past that using DRM, in more cases than not, causes problems for your honest, paying customers and doesn't inconvenience pirates in the slightest. It raises the question, why even bother? I could easily torrent all my games if I so please, but I buy them anyway. The only time I've actually fully torrented a game was to get a copy that didn't have DRM on it so I could play it offline. Guess what, it wasn't hard to do and it ran instantly with little to no work required.

People and companies need to just drop trying to force DRM on people, or at least make it pleasant and convenient like steam does.

There are some cases like with steam where the game requires a third party account for play, which is unacceptable in all but a few cases such as Tribes and Planetside 2 which require far more resources. They way I see it, if you're going to use Steam and your primary means of distribution, use it's features such as steamworks in it's entirety. Don't half ass it.

 

[BeerTent]

Looking into it a bit, I actually like their idea.

Let the MW server pull some calculations out, unless the cracker is able to find what those calculations are during gameplay, you're left with a broken husk should you successfully crack the game. You need your own server. It's unbeatable. I could go in another tangent about how we're in the goddamn 21st century, Internet is an essential like power, the truth is a lot of US citizens and a handful of Canadians just don't have access to anything other than dialup.

This method needs to be executed and maintained properly. Sadly, the Miner Wars group has shown to be incredibly incapable in both of those regards.

 

[LostAlone]

Honestly the DRM conundrum is not something that is going to be solved quickly. For the developers of Miner Wars (which looks to be a well developed game, above what you normally expect from an indie title) I imagine that they want to push it through as many platforms as possible, maybe even a boxed release sometime, and they wanted DRM to be there to ensure that they get as much revenue back as possible. So that's why they did it.

On principal I'm not a fan of always on DRM, but some version of that is where things are headed. My feeling is that soon enough, basically as soon as physical media really dies (here's hoping), devs will stop going crazy with DRM. It's fairly simple to make DRM on digital games robust and transparent. It's physical media that's screwing all of us. When you make a DRM that has to assume no connectivity during install, and that there's no way to trace who bought what copy then you have to go a bit crazy. With digital you can lock a copy of the game to a hardware set-up or connect it to a payment account. With that done during install you just need to handshake every now and again to check that you're still cool to play and jobs a good'un.

So yeah, when physical media dies off, there won't be alway on DRM for single player. It'll handshake everytime you do have connectivity, and maybe give you 35 hours of gameplay or 7 calender days between needing to handshake and failing. That to me seems to be reasonable and rational.

 

[Genocidicles]

dude, that's just evil man, this is the kinda stupid stuff id expect ubisoft to do not a indie developer.

Pfft. Ubisoft at least were smart enough to learn their lesson.

 

[Cobalt Lion]

You know, it is funny. When I first saw the title to this thread, before I clicked and read it; that is EXACTLY the game I was thinking about. Miner Wars 2081 was looking good. Good enough to buy, in fact. It was the news of the DRM that made me put away my wallet. A lot of people in the Steam Forums were saying the same thing, and Keen Software's response has been to the effect of "suck it."

I really think that some of the other methods listed above would have been a much better idea than the always-on solution.

Regarding the above posted who said something about correlation not always equaling causation, I agree, but sometimes correlation DOES show a trend.

 

[RejjeN]

It's ironic how DRM like this actually encourages piracy.

But it's not exactly Draconian, since you don't get your tongue cut out or anything for trying to pirate games.

It's Draconian for the simple reason it only punishes the consumers and not the pirates. Sure, it might take a little longer for a cracked version to be released, but it's not going to stop it from happening and then the pirates enjoy a better (singleplayer) experience than the consumers! SOMETHING isn't right there, just sayin'

 

[Coffeejack]

It sounds like this company doesn't really know what it's doing. Are there legal consequences for misleading customers over DRM like that? Could they be forced to refund their customers(Nope, didn't buy)?

 

[major_chaos]

Now we've seen Blizzard lose the trust of a lot of people with Diablo 3's DRM hampering the single player gameplay significantly.

But not enough to kill sales, also never understood people whining about this, I never had any problems, and no one I know had any problems, so this seemed to mostly just be people getting offended on principle.

Spoiler: spoilered for length

We've seen Ubisoft go from being the biggest advocate of strict DRM on PC releases to dropping the asinine model after seeing the DRM cause a 90% loss in PC sales.

[citation needed] Especially considering that Farcry 3 has been on the steam top sellers chart for awhile now.

Now we have an indie developer implementing the same type of invasive DRM into their game.

Are you talking about..

Miner Wars 2081.

Oh boy...

The game itself looks to be actually pretty cool,

It actually isn't I bought it way back in alpha and the final product is highly disappointing.

but since it was Greenlit on Steam, the Steam users have been very vocally displeased with Keen Software House' implementation of the DRM.

That's an understatement.

The DRM is effectively the same as Diablo 3's. Required to register an account and log in to play, even in single player. Required to be online at all times.

Been that way since alpha.

This leads to people experiencing slowdown due to server lag when in single player and other annoyances caused by the DRM.

Really? because not only have I never experienced any lag, most people I see whining about it don't mention lag, just "EEEKK DRM" (on the steam forums no less, the irony is searing)

1. Steam effectively is DRM enough for any game sold on it. Why the developer chose to add an extra think layer of it it beyond me.

Miner Wars isn't just on steam, it is also on other platforms that are not DRM, and they aren't going to make a different version just for steam.

2.This is a small time inde developer. Having witnessed Ubisoft's sales get vaporized when it started its DRM crusade should have been a sign to most developers.

See my point way back at the top.

3.Keen Software House is actively censoring anyone who talks negatively about the DRM on Miner Wars forums. This is kind of low. Also this:SNIP
The developers themselves have responded to a thread on the Steam forums asking the OP to "give them a chance". This was after they censored them on the Miner Wars forums. The OP isn't the only one they've censored either.

"give us a chance" isn't an unfair thing to say when the first reaction to a game you worked hard on is a temper tantrum. Also I think they may be "censoring" some posts becuse as with D3 a fair number of people jumped right past reasonable discourse to scream, rage, curse and endorse piracy.

4. They've done everything in their power to hide the fact that the DRM is there. Even lying about the DRM.

That's right the developers know enough that DRM pisses gamers of for the most part so they tried to deceive people about it. Another low move. (Read the Steam thread linked for more context).

They are doing a damn good job considering I wouldn't have known if I hadn't checked the forums, not that I care mind you, if I buy a game on Steam I assume it is online only because offline mode works only when it feels like it.

Now, what do you people think about this? I know that the developer has a right to put DRM on their game, but the consumers have a right to be pissed about the way it is being handled.

I think that just like with D3 this is people having a fit over nothing, the big difference is that D3 was actually good. If Miner Wars fails I think it will be more because word got out that it isn't a very good game.

Will this be the first and last time that a small indie developer tries this kind of DRM?

Probably not.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Now we've seen Blizzard lose the trust of a lot of people with Diablo 3's DRM hampering the single player gameplay significantly.

I don't think it was "trust", simply that people chose not to put with it. I for one didn't, and will not buy d3 because of it but it's sold over 10mill copies and broken records even without me.

We've seen Ubisoft go from being the biggest advocate of strict DRM on PC releases to dropping the asinine model after seeing the DRM cause a 90% loss in PC sales.

Holy crap, I didn't know this. Just googled it and you're right, Ubisoft have in fact dropped always-on and activation limits, requiring now only a one-time activation. I'm gonna have to rethink my entire attitude toward Ubi now....former villains who turned away from the evil path to walk with the good and righteous. Kinda like Vader at the end of RotJ, only without the stupid "Nooooooooooooooo". Guess I'll start paying attention again to their doings, comings and goings.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Now we've seen Blizzard lose the trust of a lot of people with Diablo 3's DRM hampering the single player gameplay significantly.

But not enough to kill sales, also never understood people whining about this, I never had any problems, and no one I know had any problems, so this seemed to mostly just be people getting offended on principle.

Spoiler: spoilered for length

We've seen Ubisoft go from being the biggest advocate of strict DRM on PC releases to dropping the asinine model after seeing the DRM cause a 90% loss in PC sales.

[citation needed] Especially considering that Farcry 3 has been on the steam top sellers chart for awhile now.

Spoiler: spoilered for length

Just google it. Another poster on the thread did.

The DRM is effectively the same as Diablo 3's. Required to register an account and log in to play, even in single player. Required to be online at all times.

Been that way since alpha.[/quote] Not my point. My point is they are now actively trying to hide it from new customers.

This leads to people experiencing slowdown due to server lag when in single player and other annoyances caused by the DRM.

Really? because not only have I never experienced any lag, most people I see whining about it don't mention lag, just "EEEKK DRM" (on the steam forums no less, the irony is searing)[/quote] So because it hasn't happened to you it can't happen? See I hate that kind of argument, it proves nothing. Also considering that its still possible for someone's ISP to go down in this day and age due to a number of reasons the always online DRM is still a massive pain. But my issues is more with the way the developers are handling the situation.

1. Steam effectively is DRM enough for any game sold on it. Why the developer chose to add an extra think layer of it it beyond me.

Miner Wars isn't just on steam, it is also on other platforms that are not DRM, and they aren't going to make a different version just for steam.[/quote] Still doesn't excuse the censorship on their forums. Or the fact that they have been deceitful about the DRM being there in the first place.

2.This is a small time inde developer. Having witnessed Ubisoft's sales get vaporized when it started its DRM crusade should have been a sign to most developers.

See my point way back at the top.[/quote] I'll just link it:[link]http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/07/opinion-ubisoft-piracy-and-the-death-of-reason/[/link] All it took was a quick Google look. Hell, Google autofilled this one for me.

3.Keen Software House is actively censoring anyone who talks negatively about the DRM on Miner Wars forums. This is kind of low. Also this:SNIP
The developers themselves have responded to a thread on the Steam forums asking the OP to "give them a chance". This was after they censored them on the Miner Wars forums. The OP isn't the only one they've censored either.

"give us a chance" isn't an unfair thing to say when the first reaction to a game you worked hard on is a temper tantrum. Also I think they may be "censoring" some posts becuse as with D3 a fair number of people jumped right past reasonable discourse to scream, rage, curse and endorse piracy.

"Give us a chance" is a bullshit thing to say AFTER you've been caught lying on the matter and blocking opinions to get sales. That's not excusable.

4. They've done everything in their power to hide the fact that the DRM is there. Even lying about the DRM.

That's right the developers know enough that DRM pisses gamers of for the most part so they tried to deceive people about it. Another low move. (Read the Steam thread linked for more context).

They are doing a damn good job considering I wouldn't have known if I hadn't checked the forums, not that I care mind you, if I buy a game on Steam I assume it is online only because offline mode works only when it feels like it.[/quote] Offline mode on Steam has been fixed for a while actually. They patched it a couple months ago.

 

[Kekkonen1]

I dont think it hurts sales as much as it should, unfortunately. I did not buy Diablo 3 despite being a HUGE Diablo-fan (I played both 1 and 2 constantly) but I suspect that I am in a clear minority. Also, even though the new Sim City seems incredibly interesting I will not buy it as long as it demands that I am always online. Neither Ubisoft nor Blizzard nor any other company has so far convinced me that always online is beneficial to me, it isn't since I dont care about online functionality, I just want a functioning offline game.

Also, two arguments people often make when discussing always online DRM that I think misses the point:

1: "I am online anyways so I dont care" - Yeah this isn't really the problem. I think most people in western countries (except the US) are online more or less constantly, I know I am. The thing is, I am not worried about the stability of MY connection, but these games have shown us that what we must be worried about is the stability of the COMPANIES' connection. It doesn't matter if I've been constantly online for 10 years running, if Blizzard can't keep their servers up I'm not playing the game anyway.

2: "Its not DRM, its a feature" - Does it matter? The effect is the same. Obviously games could be made with offline-mode before, so they can be made with an offline mode now. Why the game makers chose to do this isn't that important in my opinion. They chose to do it and we either accept it like nice little sheeps or we speak up and try to make a change.

 

[Worgen]

Never heard of this game. Will continue to never hear about it after this.

*Sits down and reads Escapist Forum*
*Notices people complain about being online when playing games*
*Realizes they are online complaining instead of playing*
*laughs*


For some reason, that is what happens everytime I read this.
You come onto the Escapist and complain about DRM, yet you are currently online and not playing the game. Chances are you are online a good 75% of the time, yet you still complain about it even when it shouldn't be an issue at this time. Then again, I was blessed to be born in the middle of bumfuck nowhere with great internet and the small times when I have no internet, I play something else... or read a book.

Mkay. Basically, the only time when DRM is a problem is when it hinders the enjoyment of the game. If you can't get to a game, I'd say the DRM is pretty detrimental. And then there's the objective decrease in the game's quality due to unnecessary delay. Do explain if you think any DRM is worth complaining about, though, I'm all ears. Because you seem to have just said that not being able to get to a game a quarter of one's fucking time is just fine and dandy.

Do I have to actually spell out the reasons for not being able to get to the game for you? Does your "I play something else"[footnote]Never mind the probability that I wouldn't want to play something else at that time.[/footnote] babble account for the possibility of people like you ushering in an age where practically every game has DRM like this? Yeah, you go read a fucking book and don't condescendingly tell people how to spend their time, how about that.

By the way, some people have an internet connection that's barely good enough for browsing (e.g. visiting the Escapist), and completely shitty when it comes to any sort of gaming. Just thought you'd know.

Don't be so angry. I never said what YOU should do. I am just saying what I do and what MY opinions are on the subject. Isn't that the point of a forum? Expressing opinions about the subject at hand? I don't promote DRM, yet I don't care if it is there anyway either as it doesn't affect ME. Which was the point of my paragraph that I had written.

I remember that I posted about this on my last post on this page. Do you even read the entire thread before angrily insulting someone?

DRM like this comes down to this, do you like to feel like you own your game? DRM that requires constant connection takes away that feeling, you know your only renting the game until the servers are down. There was a rather big fuss when they finally took away the online play for halo 2, imagine if that also stopped you from being able to play the single player.