Drag queens: Yay or Nay?

[thedrunkenmonkey]

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Yes, because my use of it, to make fun of someone else's attitude was obviously unironic.

lol

Obvious joke is obvious. And therefore, by your own standards? Not funny. It's kind of the same level of "funny" that you're bitching about here.

As in: it's not. Funny, that is.

In case this particular horse wasn't dead or beaten enough.
Hey look! Another horse! Wonder if it's dead. Should we go beat it to find out?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381707/

You went to IMDB to pick a Wayans Brother comedy as a shining example of "men in drag".

I went to Rotten Tomatoes. I'd say their assessment on its merits as a standardized example of what people consider good comedy to be more on par than yours.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/white_chicks/

Most of cross-dressin in movies and tv is that.

I think the primary problem here is that you're watching the cable channel that shows nothing but Wayans Brothers, Martin Lawrence, and Tyler Perry movies. Branch out from your current media selection and you might find a different comedic element to it.

The alternative is that you're watching and only seeing men dress up as women. Instead of, say:

African American men dressing up as white women with the following subtexts:
- jungle fever combined with gender identity dysphoria
- comedic elements of African-American FBI agents trying to identify with white socialite society
- cop / action flick combined with chick flick tropes
- the fact that it's a WAYANS BROTHERS MOVIE (seriously, these guys did Don't be a menace to society when you're drinking your juice with the boys in the hood. Talk about critiquing an entire media stream by going for the low-hanging fruit of a movie produced by people whose entire careers have been DEFINED by the low-hanging fruit. Jesus.)

Next you'll be on about 12th Night and how it totally doesn't advance the plot or place it into historical context how women were not allowed to perform on English stages during Shakespeare's time so the crossdressing males and females are completely WRONG AND NOT FUNNY.

Ah-huh.

 

[Lieju]

Yes, because my use of it, to make fun of someone else's attitude was obviously unironic.

lol

Obvious joke is obvious. And therefore, by your own standards? Not funny. It's kind of the same level of "funny" that you're bitching about here.

As in: it's not.

I wasn't trying to be funny. Just annoying.
And whether a joke is 'obvious' or not, is not the point.
Rather, whether it's based on anything, and the underlying attitudes.

The idea often is that a man having feminine qualities should be laughed at, and I find that attitude stupid. Just like I find it a non-joke to make a character gay.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381707/

You went to IMDB to pick a Wayans Brother comedy as a shining example of "men in drag".

I went to Rotten Tomatoes. I'd say their assessment on its merits as a standardized example of what people consider good comedy to be more on par than yours.

I don't really understand what you're talking about. You're saying that's a good movie that doesn't rely too much on just the fact you have guys dressing up as women?

Most of cross-dressin in movies and tv is that.

I think the primary problem here is that you're watching the cable channel that shows nothing but Wayans Brothers, Martin Lawrence, and Tyler Perry movies. Branch out from your current media selection and you might find a different comedic element to it.

I don't watch tv, really. So, I might be incorrect (and in my experience British comedy tends to be better about it anyway, with their history of Panto), but it seems to me you're saying there is a lot of bad cross-dressing comedy without good jokes.

EDIT: I'm not even sure what you're arguing here.

Read my first post you took an issue with.

I said that if the joke is just that a man is dressing up as a woman, that's not funny.

You seem to argue that... I dunno. That there isn't much comedy like that and most cross-dressing is insightful comedy?

 

[Flames66]

I like to look at it like this. Drag Queens make fun of some of the ridiculous clothing that society deems standard for women. I'm talking about stuff which is physically uncomfortable, restricting or damaging to wear, for example high heels. As well as being amusing to see men making themselves look effeminate, it raises awareness about the inequality of gender roles.

 

[tofulove]

Drag shows are fun, and i don't understand why people read into it so much. I see where the transsexuals are coming with the stereo type, but that's not drag stars fault. The ignorance of others are to be blamed, so don't blame the queens for it.

As a comparison, lets say a black person is walking down the street minding his own bushiness when all of a sudden some guy ask if hes good at rapping. Lets say this black man dislikes rap and hates it when random people assume he raps because hes black. Does he get upset with the random stranger who assumed hes a rapper cause hes black, or the other black rappers. In the case of transsexuals and people assuming there drag queens, getting upset at the drag queens is like this random black guy placing his anger and frustration on other black people who rap instead of the ignorance of others who assume hes a rapper.

 

[NoeL]

transgendered people who get offended by it are people who don't understand the point of it.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. It's not like they're portraying a negative stereotype of the opposite sex, they're just being outrageous for the fun of it. You shouldn't be getting butthurt by that.

 

[Lieju]

Snip

I think you're a bit confused. I've never claimed cross-dressing humor is inherently bad (do you even read my comments?), just that it needs to have more than just the fact that there's a guy in a dress.

And you went 'OH? SO SHOW ME SOME BAD CROSS-DRESSING COMEDY THEN!?"
For no apparent reason.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Drag shows are fun, and i don't understand why people read into it so much. I see where the transsexuals are coming with the stereo type, but that's not drag stars fault. The ignorance of others are to be blamed, so don't blame the queens for it.

As a comparison, lets say a black person is walking down the street minding his own bushiness when all of a sudden some guy ask if hes good at rapping. Lets say this black man dislikes rap and hates it when random people assume he raps because hes black. Does he get upset with the random stranger who assumed hes a rapper cause hes black, or the other black rappers. In the case of transsexuals and people assuming there drag queens, getting upset at the drag queens is like this random black guy placing his anger and frustration on other black people who rap instead of the ignorance of others who assume hes a rapper.

Absolutely. I'll even go another line for you.

My cats don't look at what my finger is pointing to. They look at my finger. Getting mad because the cats look at my finger instead of the food I just put out for them is pointless. I need to move the cats to see the food instead of assuming that they'll follow my finger to their food. So I either learn to find a new way to tell them the food is in their bowls or I'll continue to be frustrated whenever I point at their food bowls, while the cats will be cats and go "yep, that there's a finger. Fingers. Mmmm. Hey, fingers sometimes scritch us under the chin. Maybe he wants us to get chin scritches."

I could theoretically get their attention by filling their food bowls and blowing an airhorn, but tapping their food bowls seems to get their attention better.

The same thing for the black person applies. He could be in a city or area where black people are not common, but when they do show up, it's usually because they're performing in that area, or there's a large number of music clubs catering to hiphop. Getting pissed off at black people for perpetuating a stereotype by rapping is completely illogical. It's far easier (and more direct) to tell said idiot people, "Damn straight I am! Hey, you must play banjo all day long on your porch! Maybe we could collaborate! Wait, you don't play banjo? no? Well, you're white, aren't you? I thought for sure you'd be into redneck country music!"

Don't try to change a cat from being a cat.
Teach the cat so it understands what you're telling it.

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Snip

I think you're a bit confused. I've never claimed cross-dressing humor is inherently bad (do you even read my comments?), just that it needs to have more than just the fact that there's a guy in a dress.

And you went 'OH? SO SHOW ME SOME BAD CROSS-DRESSING COMEDY THEN!?"
For no apparent reason.

Yeah. Pot, kettle much?

For the record, your comments take very little time to read. Or divest fully of their meaning.

Truth be told I only said you grabbed the lowest hanging fruit possible and then you held it up as an example of the typical schtick in comedy, which you then defended by citing pantomime as a primary source of British comedy for the rationalization of why you preferred it. And to which crossdressing as a gag only has a tenuous, if at all link to that particular genre, especially because the gender-bending clothing gag has been used in theatrical performances regardless of nationality since the age of Greek comedy and tragedy.

To which my reaction is "If you're serious, that's very, very sad. Also somewhat uninformed and rather narrow of scope and mind. If you're trolling, well played. But still kind of sad."

 

[thedrunkenmonkey]

I like to look at it like this. Drag Queens make fun of some of the ridiculous clothing that society deems standard for women. I'm talking about stuff which is physically uncomfortable, restricting or damaging to wear, for example high heels. As well as being amusing to see men making themselves look effeminate, it raises awareness about the inequality of gender roles.

Plus, no way in hell would women put a Tony Award-winning musical together based on a UK factory changing production to make drag queen boots. Well, obviously some did, but the motivation (making Kinky Boots) would be more along the lines of Comfy Shoes, and I'm thinking it'd be a lot more guitar singer-songwriter and a lot less music-disco.

I mean, COME ON.

(and lyrics by Cyndi Lauper, no less. Damn.)

 

[KOMega]

Well, as long as they aren't doing anything out of malicious intent (like for the purposes of mocking someone, but not for the use of comedy) or are dressing in something dangerous, then I don't really care.

Unless it is my intent to get into their pants, what is in their pants is of no concern to me. In fact, screw the pants too. Didn't like them anyways.

Spoiler

edit: changed to an image, because I forgot how to use tags for a second.

 

[Angelowl]

Well, as long as they aren't doing anything out of malicious intent (like for the purposes of mocking someone, but not for the use of comedy) or are dressing in something dangerous, then I don't really care.

Unless it is my intent to get into their pants, what is in their pants is of no concern to me. In fact, screw the pants too. Didn't like them anyways.

Spoiler

http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/every-rose-has-its-thorn

Hahaha. Thanks for posting that, hopefully defusing the situation somewhat. That comic has some pretty good lessons in it. Honestly it reminds me of how my metal-head friends treat me. And doing martial arts myself... maybe I should try to dye my hair pink. XD

Agree with the sentiment, a persons genitals doesn't really matter unless it's for pro-creation. If you are flexible enough you can do most stuff with guys, girls and any in-betweens.

 

[ShipofFools]

Who cares? Does it affect your life in any way? Off course not!
Just stop caring about everything other people do, it'll calm you down.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm British. Drag is the closest thing we have to a national costume:

Suddenly, John Cleese appeared and made this thread awesome. Thank you, Gif-John.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Snip

Seems to me that most of your problems are rooted in the misrepresentation of your sub-culture. And on that note, I'm tempted to remind you that pretty much everyone gets misrepresented by other people, not just you. You're upset because you supposedly get lumped together with "the fetishist crowd" but not everyone belongs to the uneducated masses you referred to and can tell the difference between a street performer and a genuine transsexual.

I guess I don't even believe in the term 'genuine transsexual', but there it is. I don't really see myself changing that view, no matter how you suggest I do. I just don't acknowledge people as anything but the gender they were born into. And that's fine, you don't need my validation, the same way I don't crave yours. It's a simple difference in philosophy, and there's nothing wrong with that. You're free to be whatever "deviation" you want to be.

And yes, I did read a few of your posts, but I received no great revelation, lo' and behold.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Double post, please ignore.

 

[ThreeName]

Are you sure that he meant what he said in the strict and narrow interpretation that you are applying to what he said? I will agree with you that it was a poor choice of words, but if you are talking about Dan Savage, I believe that it is VERY likely that he was speaking from the context of his support network that specifically focuses on LGBT kids who frequently get bullied and abused not only by other kids but by their own families at home.

In other words he was talking about specifically the kids his organization helps. The ones that reach out for help. The ones that have a desperate need for someone on their side. I doubt he meant all kids everywhere.

Will you concede that people can say stupid things and still be a powerful and positive force for good?

Sure, but I can tell you're only saying this because you idolise him and his work, and that sort of irks me. Do actions speak louder than words? Yeah. Was it just a stupid slip of the tongue? Probably. Is he an arrogant, self-absorbed douche? Definitely.

I don't discount the work his organisation does. I just find him very representative of a latent hypocrisy and shallowness present in a lot of people in his position. Granted, that's probably par for the course. It's very hard to get such things done without a one-track mind, and like you said, and the end of the day it's ultimately worth it.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

By the way, yes, I?m only talking about drag queens. They do it for public performance, as opposed to crossdressers, who don?t necessarily have to be drag queens too and may just do it because they like it.

What I was saying is, it?s alright to laugh at the abnormal if it?s something that is so ridiculous that you?d never see in real-life. For example, a group of anthropomorphic pigs who act as superheroes that can fire lasers out of their eyes. That kind of random craziness can be funny. But something that people actually do and have to live with, and routinely face discrimination for it?I?m not sure I feel too comfortable about people, especially privileged men, using that as a form of trivial comedy. I mean, it could validly be compared to blackface. ?Look how funny these niggers act? compared to ?Look how funny these trannies act?. The difference is that, in modern society, racism is more of a hot-button topic than transphobia, which is rarely ever talked about in the media because they?re such a comparatively small minority.

And I?m saying this as a heterosexual cis male. I?m just trying to be a bit more empathic with other people and actually analysing what I and others around me do and say as a reflection of wider society. Sometimes you need to overthink some issues to gain a little perspective, and step out of your own brain a bit.

Although thedrunkenmonkey has some good points. No offence to anyone, but there are some members of any marginalised minority (whether they be LGBT, female, non-white, etc.) that tend to play the victim card far too much. I guess it would be better to target ire at those who lump transgender people and drag queens together, rather than drag queens themselves who haven?t even made a claim of nominating themselves as official trans spokespersons. Like how Louie Spence does not speak for all gay men, nor does Spike Lee speak for all black people.

I dont really get what is arousing about dressing like a woman. Is it that femininity is often sorta forbidden for guys? Is it some sort of getting aroused by degrading themselves by wearing female clothing (id be a bit offended at that mindset).

I guess you're talking about transvestic fetishists (or ?trans-chasers?, although I believe that?s deemed derogatory) here, right? Well, I guess, if a man is attracted to a woman, simulating that appearance through dress and/or make-up would presumably turn him on like looking at that woman will. A kind of autogynephilia, if you will. It would probably only be definitive degradation if it was part of a sissy fetish (or "forced feminisation", or whatever else it can be called; search it, if you like).

Then again, it could be anything they tell you. There doesn't seem to be that much logic or reason towards the numerous fetishes people can have. You just develop it; you can't help what you're attracted to. I doubt people that have rape fantasies actually want to be raped. They just like the roughness and power-play of a simulated situation like that.