Dragon Age 2 Lead Writer Blasts Homophobic Fan

[BigZ7337]

So in closing, while I have nothing against homosexuals (I'm absolutely for equal rights in all matters) or women, I feel like Bioware neglected the average male in the romance options.

No, they didn't. They just didn't have romance options that you personally liked.
Bioware ignored the "average straight male" (whatever that even means) by having Bisexual companions the same way Bethesda neglected "average law-abiding citizens" by having two of Oblivion's four major side-quest groups being about stealing and killing.

Look, in Mass Effect 2 (not counting DLC) I had 3 really interesting and cute female characters to potentially romance (there was almost a 4th but for some reason it couldn't happen no matter what dialogue options you chose with Samara). Each one was totally different, and felt like fully developed characters after having multiple conversations with them (they weren't shallow). I genuinely had difficulty ultimately choosing who to romance, and I felt bad when breaking the news on the other characters (I tried to do it nicely but Jack apparently did not take it well ) In this game however, there were 2 options for a straight male gamer, and they were both very shallow caricatures. Merrill was probably one of my least favorite characters in a Bioware game, yet I ended up with her living in the Hawke mansion.

If I'm being completely honest, the female character I wanted to romance the most was Hawke's sister, though her development was limited when Bioware decided to reduce the already small pool of characters to make it easier on themselves. I'm not saying I approve of incest, but as I didn't experience any of the background of them growing up, she didn't feel like Hawke's sister. The character just seemed to be an interesting and attractive female to my eyes.

I never said that Bioware ignored straight male gamers, I just said they didn't provide enough options. The ultimate goal for a successful Role Playing Game is to inject the player into the game world and genuinely have them care about the story and the characters. In Dragon Age 2, at least for me, Bioware completely failed. The limited romance options for straight males wasn't the main cause for this failure, but it did add to it.

 

[KalosCast]

So in closing, while I have nothing against homosexuals (I'm absolutely for equal rights in all matters) or women, I feel like Bioware neglected the average male in the romance options.

No, they didn't. They just didn't have romance options that you personally liked.
Bioware ignored the "average straight male" (whatever that even means) by having Bisexual companions the same way Bethesda neglected "average law-abiding citizens" by having two of Oblivion's four major side-quest groups being about stealing and killing.

Look, in Mass Effect 2 (not counting DLC) I had 3 really interesting and cute female characters to potentially romance (there was almost a 4th but for some reason it couldn't happen no matter what dialogue options you chose with Samara). Each one was totally different, and felt like fully developed characters after having multiple conversations with them (they weren't shallow). I genuinely had difficulty ultimately choosing who to romance, and I felt bad when breaking the news on the other characters (I tried to do it nicely but Jack apparently did not take it well ) In this game however, there were 2 options for a straight male gamer, and they were both very shallow caricatures. Merrill was probably one of my least favorite characters in a Bioware game, yet I ended up with her living in the Hawke mansion.

If I'm being completely honest, the female character I wanted to romance the most was Hawke's sister, though her development was limited when Bioware decided to reduce the already small pool of characters to make it easier on themselves. I'm not saying I approve of incest, but as I didn't experience any of the background of them growing up, she didn't feel like Hawke's sister. The character just seemed to be an interesting and attractive female to my eyes.

I never said that Bioware ignored straight male gamers, I just said they didn't provide enough options. The ultimate goal for a successful Role Playing Game is to inject the player into the game world and genuinely have them care about the story and the characters. In Dragon Age 2, at least for me, Bioware completely failed. The limited romance options for straight males wasn't the main cause for this failure, but it did add to it.

Yes, it failed for you not for "straight male gamers." You don't speak for all of us, no matter how legitimate it makes you feel your complaints are.

 

[BigZ7337]

Yes, it failed for you not for "straight male gamers." You don't speak for all of us, no matter how legitimate it makes you feel your complaints are.

Dude, I don't know why you're so aggressive to my comments, your response doesn't seem appropriate to what I said. To be clear, I never said I speak for the average straight male gamer. If I'm being honest, I consider myself much more intelligent than the average straight male. My main point is that there are only 2 shallow choices for straight males that want their avatar to accurately represent themselves. Therefore I can legitimately assume that the average straight male wasn't adequately represented in Dragon Age 2.

 

[KalosCast]

Personally I'm a straight male gamer, and I really felt like there were no romances in the game for me.... --snip--

...I feel like Bioware neglected the average male in the romance options.

To be clear, I never said I speak for the average straight male gamer.

Hm...

If I'm being honest, I consider myself much more intelligent than the average straight male. My main point is that there are only 2 shallow choices for straight males that want their avatar to accurately represent themselves. Therefore I can legitimately assume that the average straight male wasn't adequately represented in Dragon Age 2.

"I don't consider myself and average straight male, and none of them appealed to me, therefore the average straight male was neglected in Dragon Age 2"
Wat?

 

[BigZ7337]

Personally I'm a straight male gamer, and I really felt like there were no romances in the game for me.... --snip-- Here I'm talking about myself, a straight male gamer.

...I feel like Bioware neglected the average male in the romance options.

To be clear, I never said I speak for the average straight male gamer.

Here I'm explaining my comment, while I'm not speaking for the average male, it is still my opinion that average males were slightly neglected.
Hm...

If I'm being honest, I consider myself much more intelligent than the average straight male. My main point is that there are only 2 shallow choices for straight males that want their avatar to accurately represent themselves. Therefore I can legitimately assume that the average straight male wasn't adequately represented in Dragon Age 2.

"I don't consider myself and average straight male, and none of them appealed to me, therefore the average straight male was neglected in Dragon Age 2"
Wat?

You know, it's very hard to talk with someone on the internet who can't form a cogent argument. I look at the examples you used to try to pwn me, and can't really see anything wrong with them. To be clear, I consider myself to be a straight male with above average intelligence. For a look at how I came to my aforementioned conclusion/opinion, are the facts:
There are 2 romanceable options for straight males: Isabella & Merrill
There are 2 romanceable options for homosexual males: Anders & Fenris
There are 4 romanceable options for bisexual males and females: Isabella & Merrill & Anders & Fenris
There are 3 romanceable options for straight females: Anders & Fenris & Sebastian
There are 2 romanceable options for homosexual females: Isabella & Merrill
There are also 2 unromanceable characters: Varric & Aveline (3 with the partial character brother/sister Hawke)

Factually, straight male players are tied for the least represented group in the romance options. To add a completely personal opinion, Isabella and especially Merrill were the two shallowest main characters in the game (in comparison to Mass Effect 2 all of DA2's characters are weaker). So in conclusion, while I know I don't speak for every straight male gamer, from a combination of facts and personal opinion after playing the game, I believe that straight males (the most common group that will be playing the game) weren't adequately presented with enough romance choices.

Also, while I hate to fall into the internet argument cliche, in all likelihood I probably won't make a further response in this thread.

Edit: I added the lesbian romances, though they are the same as straight males, and the characters you can't romance. While Sebastian is dlc, it is free, so most people should have it (also from the wiki you can't have sex with him or I think get an achievement with him). Btw, after listing all the characters, it really strikes me the list is very small. I guess they only had time to make 6 full characters, I really hope Bioware takes more time to develop future games. It makes me worried about Mass Effect 3, I'd prefer it if they delayed the game to 2012 to make sure the game isn't as flawed as DA2.

Also, after looking at my list again, it is relatively equally spread out among all sexual preferences. Truthfully, I wasn't too annoyed by the gay characters in the game, I just read the bit about the subject here on the escapist and checked out the linked statement by the lead writer and the fan. I tended to mostly agree with the fan, so I thought I might as well post in this thread. I do kind of find it funny that in a fantasy story homosexuality is much more prevalent than in a science fiction story made by the same developer. I read a lot of fantasy books (if I had to guess I'd say around 1000 books), and homosexuality is never really touched other than in passing in anything I've read. The closest I can think of from the top of my head is the Fool character in Robin Hobb's Far Seer books, and since the main character isn't gay they never hook up.

In the end I just really wish I'd had more options of characters to romance in DA2, male or female. (Also sorry if I'm ranting a bit in the form of multiple edits)

 

[Drake_Dercon]

While I did feel that Anders was a tad pushed, I would have thought that way if any character just comes on to you without warning (come to think of it, it may have been a joke about Zevran). It is nice to see a dev actually paying attention to and standing up for their studio's choices because some self-righteous prick feels that mature games should have a no HAM option.

If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you didn't see that coming, you could have gone back and played origins.

Christ I hated Zevran.

*snip*
There are 2 romanceable options for straight males: Isabella & Merrill
There are 2 romanceable options for homosexual males: Anders & Fenris
There are 4 romanceable options for bisexual males and females: Isabella & Merrill & Anders & Fenris
There are 3 romanceable options for straight females: Anders & Fenris & Sebastian

Factually, straight male players are tied for the least represented group in the romance options. To add a completely personal opinion, Isabella and especially Merrill were the two shallowest main characters in the game (in comparison to Mass Effect 2 all of DA2's characters are weaker). I hate to fall into the internet argument cliche, but in all likelihood, I probably won't make a further response in this thread.

Now hold it. What about Avaline? And Sebastian is DLC. Not to mention that the bisexual characters were made as such more to cater to both audiences rather than a third (apologies to bisexual escapists, but there really is only one romance you get throughout the game). By those statistics, Hetero males should come out ahead, tied with homosexual females (which you seem to have neglected).

Though I'll admit, Merrill's and Isabella's characters weren't done properly, though they weren't so much shallow as inadequately explored.

 

[Jezzascmezza]

Why would some one be bothered enough to complain about such a thing?
That's what bothers me...

 

[s0p0g]

what more is there to say than...
Way to go, David Gaider!

also, if the problem is male NPCs trying to hit on his straight male avatar (i don't know much (read: almost nothing) about DA2, please forgive my ignorance)... that can also happen in rl. does the guy complain about that, too? does he complain to the maior of the town he lives at? to god, allah, his ancestors spirits? or would he just deal with it somehow, like saying "eff off!"?
i suppose there's some option to react somewhat like that in the game?

 

[kromify]

i haven't read 20 pages of this, but have any girls complained about being hit on by Issy? guys have much stronger issues on this than girls do. maybe it's because they have not as much practice at being hit on by someone... not being a guy i can't really explain! lol! maybe someone could tell me?

Well-written. You're taking for granted that dudes doing dudes and dames doing dames is normal. It's not. It never has been and never will be. Being a poofter doesn't belong as a default choice.

untrue. there are lots of reasons why it is normal, but it would take far too long to explain the many evolutionary concepts behind homosexuality, and sexuality in general. it's a very interesting subject, but i expect most homophobic people won't care to know. (and no i wasn't referring to it being in animals! that's so old hat! also; obvious, being that WE are animals)

jeez, where was i?

tolerance in games can only be a good thing. i wonder when the first black protagonist was made, and which game? i bet everyone made a big deal over it then.

spread love, people! not hate ;-)

ramble over!

 

[MB202]

That WAS an interesting read, and it's nice to see a straight male get what (I feel) he deserves for saying that he deserves some special treatment.

 

[cobra_ky]

tolerance in games can only be a good thing. i wonder when the first black protagonist was made, and which game? i bet everyone made a big deal over it then.

<a href=http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/536>this guy, apparently. doesn't look like anyone noticed.

 

[MicManGuy]

Wow. Just wow. Talk about prejudice and discrimination. This guy was NOT homophobic at all. If you read ANY part of his post (let alone the entirety) it is very clear he is talking about marketing and design budgets. He's wrong of course...

...The people who say that this guy is homophobic are, themselves, ignorant and should be ashamed.

It's still hard to take his self-entitled whining seriously...

... I did read his entire rant. And I will be hard pressed to believe that this whole argument of his did not sprout from the seed that he finds homosexuality disgusting...

Like I said. Prejudice. You judge that he finds homosexuality disgusting before ever hearing him say so. Discriminating between his and your arguments based on your assumptions is a fallacy no matter what moral ground you may stand on. Calling this guy "homophobic" because of his criticism makes about as much sense as calling a gay person's criticism of conservative gender roles in games being "heterophobic." Even though both of these examples have a clear bias, that alone does not invalidate their criticism.

There are plenty of other ways Bastal's criticism are easily invalidated. Don't stoop to the crutch of saying "homophobic" so that you can avoid thinking about what he's actually saying.

 

[SkyKitty]

Fenris is hot, why is that a problem? <.<

 

[theguiltyone]

... I did read his entire rant. And I will be hard pressed to believe that this whole argument of his did not sprout from the seed that he finds homosexuality disgusting...

Like I said. Prejudice. You judge that he finds homosexuality disgusting before ever hearing him say so. Discriminating between his and your arguments based on your assumptions is a fallacy no matter what moral ground you may stand on.

Did YOU not read his entire rant? Says right here, misspelling and all, copy-pasted from his rant: "I'm not here to debate the moralities of homosexuality, I personally find it to be digusting..." That's not prejudice. That's reading comprehension.

As to the assumption that I assumed that was the case before reading that? Are you a mind-reader? Do you know for absolute certain what I was thinking while I was reading this? You're the one doing the discriminating based on pure assumption here, not me.

There are plenty of other ways Bastal's criticism are easily invalidated. Don't stoop to the crutch of saying "homophobic" so that you can avoid thinking about what he's actually saying.

While I think a guy who resorts to needing a "no gays in my game" option in order to be comfortable playing is certainly edging if not tipping over the line that word draws, I do think it's overused by people who don't fully understand it. Hence? My not having using it. At ALL.

For all your complaints about people assuming and not reading? Um. Yeah. Just leaving this here.

 

[MicManGuy]

Did YOU not read his entire rant? Says right here, misspelling and all, copy-pasted from his rant: "I'm not here to debate the moralities of homosexuality, I personally find it to be digusting..."

Wow. I totally missed that line. (goes to find it in post) Yeah my bad. I must have jumped down to Gaider's reply at that point (for obvious reasons - see quote below). But Still... you are judging that his disgust is the cause for his dissatisfaction with the game, when he clearly states the opposite.

Also, I would point out that he says that line in an edit AFTER having gotten the attention of the media and people calling him homophobic. He is merely making an admission of his views regarding the morality of homosexuality. He is comfortable expressing that because it is irrelevant to the subject matter. He does this to highlight the fact that whether it disgusts him or whether he feels it's wonderfully progressive and inclusive has nothing to do with the subject: marketing. His point is that he (and the majority) simply doesn't relate to it.

EDIT: Seeing as how this post has been linked by a few sites, I thought it'd be proper for me to write a response to Gaider's reply:

I don't see how Gaider's reply was in anyway blasting my arguments. In fact, what Gaider basically said was that "You're right. Dragon Age 2 was not made specifically for "straight male gamer" in mind. It was made to be all-inclusive." And that was exactly the accusation I was making. I'm not here to debate the moralities of homosexuality, I personally find it to be digusting but others will feel different, that isn't the point of this thread.

...straight male gamers make up a overwhelming majority of players...

 

[theguiltyone]

Still... you are judging that his disgust is the cause for his dissatisfaction with the game, when he clearly states the opposite.

Yes. I am. From what I've read and what he's said, I believe I'm justified in not believing him when he says that.

That's my opinion. I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm completely without reason or evidence for thinking that way.

I'd like state before I ask this that I do not do so rhetorically or in sarcasm: Do YOU believe, having read him openly stating his opinion on homosexuality, that his statement was NOT inspired by those feelings, and was purely a result of his very strong opinions on marketing for the improved business of Bioware?

Also, I would point out that he says that line in an edit AFTER having gotten the attention of the media and people calling him homophobic. He is merely making an admission of his views regarding the morality of homosexuality.

And it sure made the people who called him homophobic think twice about their opinion of him, didn't it? Dude is obviously WINNING this one.

XD

 

[Gunner 51]

To me the solution is really simple.

If you don't like gay relationships - don't pursue them.

If one finds it's way to you, say "thanks, but no thanks."

One's opinion on homosexuality doesn't matter, but it's how you deal with it that matters. You may find such things grotesque, but there's no need to complain as bitterly about it as Mr Gaiden did. If he didn't want to pursue a relationship with Anders - he didn't have to.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Bit of thread necromancy but good on him, Yahtzee made an enlightening post along similar lines and reading the conversation was a joy.

 

[Neferius]

Spoiler

Dragon Age 2 Lead Writer Blasts Homophobic Fan

The romances in Dragon Age 2 are for everyone, says the games lead writer, not just for the straight, male gamer.

A disgruntled BioWare fan, who accused the studio of neglecting the "straight, male gamer" with the romance options in Dragon Age 2, has received a dressing down from the game's lead writer, David Gaider, who says that while straight, male gamers might be the majority, raw numbers don't give them any right to expect special treatment.

The poster was upset that male characters were hitting on him, and suggested that BioWare could easily have included a "No Homosexuality" option. He felt that BioWare had not tried to make appealing romance options for people like him, and that its focus had been on other, less numerous groups like women and homosexuals. Gaider scoffed at this idea however, saying that the romance options in Dragon Age 2 were for everyone, regardless of their gender or sexual orientation, and that no one group was being favored over any other.

Gaider also attacked the idea that the poster could speak for straight, male gamers at all, saying that he could certainly present his personal feelings - although Gaider felt they were based on ignorance - but that trying to speak for a whole group was a fool's errand. Gaider said that the poster's attitudes were rooted in a sense of privilege, and that he was so used to getting things his own way, when everything was fair, he perceived it as imbalance. Gaider thought that anyone who said that the only way to please them was to restrict the options of some other group, was - in his view - the least deserving of being accommodated.

It's great to see a developer trying to include as many people as possible with its games, even though they might not be the bulk of a games audience. You can read the entire exchange here [http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6661775&lf=8], and if you've got a few minutes spare, I thoroughly suggest that you do. The original complaint has to be seen to be believed, and Gaider's full response is a joy to read.

Source: via Phyrra.net [http://phyrra.net/2011/03/why-bioware-enforces-they-deserve-my-money.html]






Permalink

Actually, considering Bioware's approach to sexual preference equality, i.e. making all (four) party members bisexual, I would have to say that they (the developers) are being more insulting to the gays than any random homophobic bloger with a chip on his shoulder.
By simply by going off the assumption that sexual preference is a Choice rather than a preexisting condition, as the gay community and some scientific studies argue, the writers and executive producers of DragonAge 2 are dismissing the same demographic they are so quick to defend in newscasts and on blogs.

In this case, the developer's own laziness by not introducing more fleshed-out party members and in greater numbers, seems to defeat their argument of doing this for a greater cause, and indicate more towards this being a(nother) cheap marketing gimmick.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

Actually, considering Bioware's approach to sexual preference equality, i.e. making all (four) party members bisexual, I would have to say that they (the developers) are being more insulting to the gays than any random homophobic bloger with a chip on his shoulder.
By simply by going off the assumption that sexual preference is a Choice rather than a preexisting condition, as the gay community and some scientific studies argue, the writers and executive producers of DragonAge 2 are dismissing the same demographic they are so quick to defend in newscasts and on blogs.

In this case, the developer's own laziness by not introducing more fleshed-out party members and in greater numbers, seems to defeat their argument of doing this for a greater cause, and indicate more towards this being a(nother) cheap marketing gimmick.

That's certainly one way to interpret it. I don't think that's really what's going on, but it's a point that bears talking about. I don't think that fact that all of Dragon Age 2's romance options are bisexual is BioWare's way of saying that sexuality is a choice; I think that BioWare wanted to give people the option of wooing whoever they wanted, rather than limiting that choice to just a handful of characters, as in the first game. I also don't think it's a marketing stunt, as BioWare could have just done what it did for Dragon Age Origins and still come out ahead of most developers.

As for the game's cast, it is smaller than previous games, but I think that the characters were much more interesting than in the first game; I'd take Varric or Merill over Morrigan any day. Obviously, your opinion differs on that score, but you have to ask yourself if the characters in Dragon Age 2 are really bad, or if you just don't like them.