Dragon's Dogma: How to Screw Up a Game in Five and a Half Simple Steps.

[Arakasi]

Honestly, all the way through it I was under the impression you were talking about Dark Souls.

My brain is silly.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Snipz

So, the less you weigh the slower you recover stamina and the faster you drain it then?

You misunderstand me, friend. That is actually the opposite of the fact. My post actually says that smaller characters(naturally lighter than larger characters) will drain stamina more slowly, and recover it more quickly. But weight limitations work oppositely of the character's own weight, to strike a balance between the stamina drain/recovery. Large characters can carry a large amount of items before they get bogged down and their speed suffers for it, especially if you nab the Sinew augment from the Fighter vocation. Whereas small characters cannot carry so much. So if you're a heavy looter(like I am) larger characters can move more quickly than smaller characters, while toting around all the fun things you find lying around the fields.

They actually have a chart for this. And an entire wikia article for it.

http://dragonsdogma.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Weight

Okay, I see now. Thanks for explaining.

No prob. I still think their modifiers are backward, though. Taller, more muscular characters should be able to run faster than shorter, skinnier characters. I mean, there's no way I(5'6" averagely built) could outrun a 6'5" body building giant, nevermind being able to run for an even longer amount of time.

It's because the formula is weight based and doesnt take muscle into account. A skinny person would problably be faster than a fat person. It would make more sense to take muscle into account to, but that would further complicate the caliculations.

People don't have to be fat, to be large in stature. Even if we had the same body build, a 6'5" giant is probably going to outrun a 5'6" dwarf like me, by virtue of a much larger stride.

 

[lapan]

Honestly, all the way through it I was under the impression you were talking about Dark Souls.

My brain is silly.

That's because some of these points could be used for both games. Neither have real fast travel and both are stamina based. Which is probably one of the reasons why he disliked both.

 

[Jynthor]

Lets shorten this.
I like Dragon's Dogma.
As such I think all of your points are wrong except for perhaps the point about randomising spawns...
Everything other than that although not stream lined immerses me more. Don't like something don't post about it... Damn

I'm sorry, but how does liking the game invalidate any of his points again?

 

[Zhukov]

Honestly, all the way through it I was under the impression you were talking about Dark Souls.

My brain is silly.

That's because some of these points could be used for both games. Neither have real fast travel and both are stamina based. Which is probably one of the reasons why he disliked both.

No.

My only major problem with Dark Souls is the checkpoint placement. I don't mind the lack of fast travel because the map is not large enough to require it and you don't have to backtrack all that often. The stamina mechanic is fine since it regenerates quickly and is mainly used in combat rather than travel.

 

[lapan]

Honestly, all the way through it I was under the impression you were talking about Dark Souls.

My brain is silly.

That's because some of these points could be used for both games. Neither have real fast travel and both are stamina based. Which is probably one of the reasons why he disliked both.

No.

My only major problem with Dark Souls is the checkpoint placement. I don't mind the lack of fast travel because the map is not large enough to require it and you don't have to backtrack all that often. The stamina mechanic is fine since it regenerates quickly and is mainly used in combat rather than travel.

Dark Souls map felt larger than Dragons Dogma to me, though you are right about it requiring less backtracking over all.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Honestly, all the way through it I was under the impression you were talking about Dark Souls.

My brain is silly.

That's because some of these points could be used for both games. Neither have real fast travel and both are stamina based. Which is probably one of the reasons why he disliked both.

No.

My only major problem with Dark Souls is the checkpoint placement. I don't mind the lack of fast travel because the map is not large enough to require it and you don't have to backtrack all that often. The stamina mechanic is fine since it regenerates quickly and is mainly used in combat rather than travel.

I'll agree with lapan, Dark Souls feels like it has a larger world than Dragon's Dogma does. If only because there are considerably more varied places to visit, all of which are quite large areas(which we'll be getting even more of them when Artorias of the Abyss is released on consoles(confirmed dlc! :D)). Although, I did find myself doing quite a bit of backtracking throughout Dark Souls. Not that it bothered me, mind. At least in Dark Souls, the never-changing spawns aren't as much of a problem since you can blaze through most of the early enemies with ease, if you don't wanna run by.

 

[DorkRunner]

Zhukov, did you read my other post above at all? The one where I actually tried to respond to each of your criticisms in a courteous and thorough manner?

Either way, again, matter of preference. You may be able to tolerate Bethesda games for longer, but I can't. I really start to hate a game once I start just jumping all over the map to complete stuff... not to mention combat isn't nearly as fun in those games, imo. It starts to feel like you're only playing the game to go from one task to the next, getting relatively meaningless loot (seriously, lots of stuff in that game absolutely has no purpose, not even sell value) and leveling up a character that's going to end up roughly the same as everyone else's (since you can typically max everything and/or there's always the list of skills so good that everyone takes them). Then, once the character is maxed out... you're done. There is absolutely no online component, no new game+, nothing. Around halfway through, I begin to realize that once my character hits max level, I'll probably never touch the file again because there's no more quests to do, the combat is uninspiring, and the loot just isn't worth it. Probably have the best gear in the game anyway, since they actually have a "best set" of gear, rather than giving multiple options of good gear depending on your character...oh, wait, there's light and heavy armor. My bad.

Yeah, I enjoy those games for a while, but I can enjoy a game like Dragon's Dogma a lot longer. It's "annoyances" are what begin to endear me to the game because it starts to feel less like I'm playing it to beat it, and more like I'm playing it to just have a good time.

Snipz

So, the less you weigh the slower you recover stamina and the faster you drain it then?

You misunderstand me, friend. That is actually the opposite of the fact. My post actually says that smaller characters(naturally lighter than larger characters) will drain stamina more slowly, and recover it more quickly. But weight limitations work oppositely of the character's own weight, to strike a balance between the stamina drain/recovery. Large characters can carry a large amount of items before they get bogged down and their speed suffers for it, especially if you nab the Sinew augment from the Fighter vocation. Whereas small characters cannot carry so much. So if you're a heavy looter(like I am) larger characters can move more quickly than smaller characters, while toting around all the fun things you find lying around the fields.

They actually have a chart for this. And an entire wikia article for it.

http://dragonsdogma.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Weight

Okay, I see now. Thanks for explaining.

No prob. I still think their modifiers are backward, though. Taller, more muscular characters should be able to run faster than shorter, skinnier characters. I mean, there's no way I(5'6" averagely built) could outrun a 6'5" body building giant, nevermind being able to run for an even longer amount of time.

It's because the formula is weight based and doesnt take muscle into account. A skinny person would problably be faster than a fat person. It would make more sense to take muscle into account to, but that would further complicate the caliculations.

Actually, I'm 5'6 and a sprinter, fairly average build, and definitely faster than any 6'5 person I've come across. It's pretty accurate to say shorter to average height guys are faster, at least outside of the olympics, and even some in the olympics I think... I don't really follow them.

It partially has to do with turnover speed; shorter legs equals faster leg turnover speed. Yeah, taller guys have longer strides, but that also tends to mean that each stride takes longer.

That being said, just because I'm faster does NOT mean that my stamina drains more slowly; quite the opposite, in fact. I have a lot of fast-twitch muscle, which means my muscles fire faster, but also burn more oxygen faster and I get tired faster. Take that against someone who has more slow-twitch muscle, their top speed isn't as high, but they can maintain it for longer. Btw, how much fast-twitch muscle vs. slow-twitch muscle isn't dependent upon working out; you're actually born with it predetermined. Haha, it's why you don't see sprinters suddenly becoming distance runners, and vice-versa.

As for muscle, yeah, generally speaking you get faster when you build up muscle, but not always; if you're not doing an actual training regimen for becoming faster, you can become slower with more muscle. Simple example, if you build more upper body strength (football players), you become pretty hard to move, but that's added weight on your legs too making you a tad slower. And, unless you're stretching properly, more muscle equals more stiffness equals slower as well.

There's FAR more to factor into running than just size and weight, and still even more than your amount of muscle... but yeah, that'd be far too much to include in most games, so Dragon's Dogma does pretty fine as it is.

Another conclusion, I actually *do* think a 5'6' average build person would beat a 6'5 bodybuilding giant .

 

[killcannon71]

Lets shorten this.
I like Dragon's Dogma.
As such I think all of your points are wrong except for perhaps the point about randomising spawns...
Everything other than that although not stream lined immerses me more. Don't like something don't post about it... Damn

I'm sorry, but how does liking the game invalidate any of his points again?

Because his reasons for not liking it are purely personal and not based on any technical problems in game, therefor it's opinion. Opinions only have weight in a personal subtext. Fact versus opinion...get it?

 

[TrevHead]

I havn't bought this game yet and the OPs post originally put me off it, but i'm glad I read the full thread which explains why they limited the player to help create challenge and pacing to the game, plus the devs want you to experience the world they have created, much of what could be missed by fast travel. Although the enemy types might get abit too easy later into the game, although taking steps to ensure I don't get overpowered would help with that.

You're pretty much criticizing any and every RPG ever made, they all share the same monotony at some point or another.

Hell I find Skyrim monotonous even with fast travel. At least for me the light at the end of the tunnel in Dragons Dogma is worth the journey.

This guy seems to get it, sticking a flag in the north pole would be quite a stale experience without the highs and lows getting there. I think many gamers are spoiled by many of the conveniences in western games ie fast travel, auto save. It's a big reason why I like Japanese games because they tend to understand pacing better than western devs

 

[hazabaza1]

I don't think that these points are enough to put me off buying it, but it'll be good to keep in mind.
Also, anybody know if Striders can use one handed swords?

 

[Melondrupe]

I don't think that these points are enough to put me off buying it, but it'll be good to keep in mind.
Also, anybody know if Striders can use one handed swords?

The Assassin class can, but it pretty much handles swords in the same way the Fighter and Magic Knight does.

 

[hazabaza1]

I don't think that these points are enough to put me off buying it, but it'll be good to keep in mind.
Also, anybody know if Striders can use one handed swords?

The Assassin class can, but it pretty much handles swords in the same way the Fighter and Magic Knight does.

Thanks. I tend to like making a LOTR style ranger at some point in games, so a sword and bow is going to be important for me.

 

[Yakslapper]

But the combat, it looks so fun. But it also looks like a game that will be really cheap really quickly, so I'll wait.

 

[Sparrow]

(It's a rant, don't take it too seriously.)

Nope. Gonna' take it very seriously because fuck it, I'm not busy right now.

STEP ONE is to not have a fast travel system.

Stupid statement, as you literally go on to say there is a fast travel system.

After all, an open world RPG would never need one of those! Players love spending 60% of the game traipsing back and forth across the same areas.

Probably more of a personal thing, but, I did kind of enjoy that element to it. Immersion and all that shit.

If you really must, you can put in a half-arsed system that allows the player to teleport to only two locations on the map, but be sure to make it based on a rare finite resource.

You can quite easily make infinite fast travelling thingamabobs, so, again... yeah. Not rare, not finite. Plain wrong.

You also need to make that travelling as slow and tedious as possible. So STEP TWO is to make the player walk really slowly.

Well, if they were walking fast they wouldn't be walking. They'd be jogging.

You can include a sprint function, but make sure it requires a stamina bar that is used quickly and regenerates really slowly. As the final touch, when the player runs out of stamina make them watch their character stand still panting for a few highly annoying seconds.

Easy to get around. Buy a shitload of Liquid Vim, and your stamina becomes neverending. Sprint forever.

However, the player needs something to do during all that slow, tedious and repetitive traveling. STEP THREE is to have respawning monsters.

Would you rather the monsters never respawn? Besides, for the most part it's pretty logical why certain enemies always appear in the same places. Harpies like high-up and windy places, goblins love the shit out of forrests, bandits are big fans of abandoned structures... I've only encountered two re-spawning boss battles, and one of them is a goddamn dragon. Why would you NOT want to fight that thing more than once?

However, it just isn't quite irritating enough yet. That's why STEP FOUR is to saddle the player with three companion NPCs that never, ever, ever, ever shut their fat fucking mouths. Have them talk constantly, and I really do mean constantly. Not a single second should be allowed to pass without some drooling idiot spouting needless and inane babble. Have them talk over one another. Have them interrupt each other. Have them interrupt themselves. Have them comment on the surroundings, have them comment on player's current objective, have them comment on enemies - whatever it takes to achieve maximum irritation. Oh, and make them vital for combat so the player can't leave them behind. Also, don't give them any degree of personality or characterization, that stuff is for girls and casuals. Lastly, make sure the voice acting is somewhere between below average and shit. (You can include a way to curb their chatter, but make it ineffective and make sure it can only be applied to one of the three.)

You seem to have just made round-about ways of batting the explanations to your hate aside about three times in this paragraph. A) You can make your pawn shut the fuck up pretty easily B) Browsing around for pawns that don't speak much in the Rift isn't too hard. Once you've found quiet ones, favourite them. C) You can just leave the fuckers behind. Sure, the game gets harder like you said but... that's a fix. Plus, it's kind of fun doing it all solo after you've been with your pawns for so long.

Now, since your game is an RPG is will probably have a bit of inventory management involved. STEP FIVE is to make that inventory management as clumsy and awkward as possible. Menu's are the key. Also, rather than one of those convenient shared inventories a la Dragon Age, give each character separate inventories to maximise the amount of tedious item shuffling. For the love of all that is holy, do not include any shortcut buttons, radial menus or anything similar.

Back. Press the damn back button. Boom, inventory open.

That way, if the player wants to use an item to restore their stamina because the they got tired while slowly trudging back through the same areas and killing the exact same monsters, then by golly they'll need to go through at least three menus to do it!

Again. Back button. And it's default position is on curative items, so press the back button, choose your potion and hey-presto! The only time you really have to fiddle about with the inventory is when you equip items, which isn't something you'll often be finding yourself doing in combat. And hell, even then it isn't hard. Back button, weapon menu, select weapon, move to equipment, equip. Or, start, equipment, weapon menu, equip. We're talking ten seconds of work here.

Lastly, just for kicks, make your game's story consist entirely of infantile drivel that wouldn't pass muster on a preschooler's fanfiction website. After all, it is just a video game. Nobody will mind so long as you give them bigger numbers every few minutes.

Not sure how far you've got, but (semi-spoilers) the side missions with the Duke's wife are pretty well written, as is the ending. Whoever wrote the Dragon's lines clearly knew what they were doing.

Admittedly, the whole "go beat up the dragon because we told you to!" plot is very cliché but they make it work sometimes. Plus...

Spoiler: Super spoiler within!

...there's the ending AFTER the ending.

All in all, you may have guessed, I like the game. Maybe a 7/10 for me, because it DOES have it's flaws. As you said, at the start you ARE going to have to keep going across the same areas but (thankfully) that only starts to get boring around the same time you acquire the fast travel items. Some of the side missions are fucking terrible (God, please, I don't want to do another escort quest) and yeah, the voice acting isn't great sometimes, but it's flaws are overshadowed by stuff like it's awesome boss fights. Climbing onto a dragon's face and stabbing it as it flies around never gets old.

 

[kyogen]

Admittedly, the whole "go beat up the dragon because we told you to!" plot is very cliché but they make it work sometimes.

Agreed. It helps that the dragon seems pretty genre-savvy about the whole thing himself. I also like his take on religious fanaticism.

EDIT: Actually, the game is more of an 8.5/9 for me. It does have its flaws, but they never got in the way of my fun. Even when I utterly failed to understand how the affinity system works and got into more than one surprise romance.

 

[Mintee10]

Hello everyone...

I have something I'd like to say...okay, so here goes.

*Cough* It baffles me beyond imagination why there are literally almost no complaints on the internets about Dragon Dogma's UTTERLY DUMB difficulty pacing...

I spent maybe 10-15 hours enjoying the BALLS out of this game with it's tendency to force me to plan ahead constantly be it while traveling or switching out/buying skills or even buying/selling items...but very shortly after that mark the game decided it wasn't easy enough and toned everything down to what your casual American teenage gamer would be able to swallow.

Then's when it was ironically hard as a rock to swallow...that serious sense of satisfaction I got from the earlier hours was thrown down a chasm somewhere.

OH BUT WAIT, SHIT...I'm worrying for nothing because apparently *SPOILERS* Post-game offers a signifigant increase in challenge.

Well it did...for a few hours...after which the only enemy still giving me trouble were the Hellhounds, that's it...nothing else, besides that dumb room in the Everfall with the 2 you-know-whats and the other you-know-whats...you know, that room that plays a mean joke on the game's atrocious A.I (regardless of your pawn's inclinations).

*SPOILERS* So then there's the Ur-Dragon...yeah yeah, fairly difficult SOMETIMES...but also incredibly pointless...you get loot for killing him...loot that YOU'LL NEVER NEED...Why? Next paragraph explains that...

New game+...New game+ offers NO (read: zero, zilch, nada) noticeable enemy scaling. Those goblins you 1st ran into on your way from Cassardis to the encampment? Yeah, still that weak...the Hydra? He should go down 10x faster this time around. The Cyclopes, Griffins, Chimeras and their stronger cousins? 10x easier now. Thanks Capcom...

THANK YOU for making a game that after level 30-ish COMPLETELY tosses out its founding ideal, and making new game+ enemies not scale with the character's level...meaning THE ONLY REASON TO PLAY IT is if you're a slobbering doofus who enjoys "feeling like a badass" one to two-shotting all the smaller enemies and taking down the big ones in under a minute with minimal effort...

Why the HELL do we even HAVE high-level gear sold to us in the Everfall?! We'll never NEED IT! ._.

So I made an account and wrote this post literally just to shout out a big FUCK YOU to all you consumers who like overly-simplified difficulty and senseless grinding. Yeah, fuck you...

Of course the poster didn't complain about the difficulty...why would they? They wouldn't...Dragon's Dogma may not be their cup o' tea but it sure as hell doesn't give them any problems in the difficulty department (or, it shouldn't at least). All there is to do now is GRIND and FARM for gear that I don't have a need for...Thanks Ur-Dragon, for being a useless gimmick.

So yeah, FUCK YOU. (Just kidding (to some of you...)).

 

[Mintee10]

On a serious topic-related note...: I actually enjoyed everything you hated OP...except the inventory, not because of its layout though, but because of how slow the menu inputs are...

You really need to stay away from game devs and just games with genuine heart and charm in general...I don't want their demographic ideals sullied by you casuals any more than they already are.

 

[piinyouri]

Just beat the first part. The final fight was amazingly well done.

This game get's better and better.

Also Hellhounds roars are terrifying.

 

[Smeggs]

(It's a rant, don't take it too seriously.)

So... you're a developer and you're in the process of making a game. It's an open world action-RPG and it's coming along nicely. You've got some solid character customization options in there, solid RPG elements, good albeit unpolished combat, some big cool monsters to fight and an interesting mechanic that allows players to trade and hire each other's party members.

You're going to call it Dragon's Dogma because where you come from there's a law against video games with non-goofy titles.

But wait! Your game is actually pretty good. Well, you'll have to do something about that! So here is my guide to screwing up an otherwise decent game in just five and a half easy steps.

STEP ONE is to not have a fast travel system. After all, an open world RPG would never need one of those! Players love spending 60% of the game traipsing back and forth across the same areas. Besides, wasting their time like that allows you to say that your games has 50+ hours of content. If you really must, you can put in a half-arsed system that allows the player to teleport to only two locations on the map, but be sure to make it based on a rare finite resource. Remember, the more time the player spends traveling across the same areas over and over again, the better.

You also need to make that travelling as slow and tedious as possible. So STEP TWO is to make the player walk really slowly. You can include a sprint function, but make sure it requires a stamina bar that is used quickly and regenerates really slowly. As the final touch, when the player runs out of stamina make them watch their character stand still panting for a few highly annoying seconds.

However, the player needs something to do during all that slow, tedious and repetitive traveling. STEP THREE is to have respawning monsters. Furthermore, it is important that there not be any kind of variation or randomisation in these spawns. Make the exact same monsters respawn in the exact same places in the exact same numbers. That way the players doesn't feel any sense of progression, accomplishment or impact on the world as they fight the exact same monsters while travelling through the exact same place for the tenth time.

Oh, but don't think we're done yet. You've made your game repetitive, boring, tedious and needlessly time consuming. However, it just isn't quite irritating enough yet. That's why STEP FOUR is to saddle the player with three companion NPCs that never, ever, ever, ever shut their fat fucking mouths. Have them talk constantly, and I really do mean constantly. Not a single second should be allowed to pass without some drooling idiot spouting needless and inane babble. Have them talk over one another. Have them interrupt each other. Have them interrupt themselves. Have them comment on the surroundings, have them comment on player's current objective, have them comment on enemies - whatever it takes to achieve maximum irritation. Oh, and make them vital for combat so the player can't leave them behind. Also, don't give them any degree of personality or characterization, that stuff is for girls and casuals. Lastly, make sure the voice acting is somewhere between below average and shit. (You can include a way to curb their chatter, but make it ineffective and make sure it can only be applied to one of the three.)

Now, since your game is an RPG is will probably have a bit of inventory management involved. STEP FIVE is to make that inventory management as clumsy and awkward as possible. Menu's are the key. Also, rather than one of those convenient shared inventories a la Dragon Age, give each character separate inventories to maximise the amount of tedious item shuffling. For the love of all that is holy, do not include any shortcut buttons, radial menus or anything similar. That way, if the player wants to use an item to restore their stamina because the they got tired while slowly trudging back through the same areas and killing the exact same monsters, then by golly they'll need to go through at least three menus to do it!

Lastly, just for kicks, make your game's story consist entirely of infantile drivel that wouldn't pass muster on a preschooler's fanfiction website. After all, it is just a video game. Nobody will mind so long as you give them bigger numbers every few minutes.

Dragon's Dogma, ladies and gentlemen. Proudly demonstrating that the only thing worse than something crap is something crap that could easily have been good.

[sub][sub]Captcha: "make my day"[/sub][/sub]

1. Dragon's Dogma.
If you actually reached the end of the game you would understand the title.

Spoiler: Spoilers ahoy

A dogma is, "A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true." The entire theme of the game is that the world is an unending wheel, and history repeats itself forever. The dragon, all of the hardships you face, even all of the people you meet are all created and given direction by the Seneschal, the current "God" of the world. Your character literally becomes God at the end of the game, and it is made abundantly clear that since you chose to fight the Dragon rather than take his offer, it has been your choice that lead you to this point. You then rule the world only to be replaced by the next coming Arisen to brave the battle with the Dragon and rise to become the next Seneschal, who will grant you the sweet release of death from an eternity of serving as the world's guardian.

TL;DR It makes sense if you actually beat the game.

2. Yes, it did get somewhat annoying with all the backtracking, but at least it's fixed once NG+ rolls around, as you can buy Portcrystals from the Black Cat merchant. Lay five of those things down and you can clear the game in a matter of hours if you want to speedrun the story. I at least enjoyed killing shit and exploring enough to overlook it, but I understand if someone just wants to move on.

3. Yeah, inventory was annoying to navigate, no arguements.

4. The story was incredibly disjointed, but if you look past the stupid sidequests they have you do the main focus, the Dragon and the Unending Ring, are quite interesting. The finaly revalation is quite cool as well.