Driving Through The Wheel of Time

[NeutralDrow]

-Snip-

I agreed with you up until the moment you said "and even Cadsuane has become mildly tolerable."
I wish Rand had killed her...I can't wait for Moraine to get back.

Oh, come on.

Spoiler

She learned how to completely break Semirhage after realizing what would work against her herself (and thus admitting to herself that she's a colossally arrogant *****), she got to stew in her failure to protect Rand and the genuine threat that he would kill her if she ever showed her face again, and to top it all off, Tam of all people gave her a satisfying (and successful) verbal *****-slap.

I'm willing to forgive a little bit, out of sheer morbid amusement. And I do feel I have reason to expect her to shape up a little in the next two books.

 

[DoW Lowen]

Nice Review, a bit clunky but a little bit of polishing should do the trick.

I have a love-hate relationship with WoT.

It was one of the earliest series that I got into, I found the pacing to be terrible, the over description to stand in the way of the story and I the characters were unrelatable. But I couldn't put the bloody books down!

In the span of 2 months I read Eye of the World to Crown of Swords (which was the 7th book I believe) and from there on I slowly and painfully trudged through Path of Daggers and I stopped reading after Crossroads of Twilight. There was a reason for this.

Robert Jordan does everything right and follows all the conventions of a good story - explicit imagery, well rounded personalities, evokes vivid imaginations, has a complex story with almost no confounding details and contradictions, creates suspense and mystery, creates a seamless world that is at the same time realistic, believable but wonderful and frightening (really, who wants to live in a world with Gray men?). What he manages perfectly as well is character development. BUT what the characters develop into are steaming piles of unlikablity - it's not a word but that's not the point.

While you feel the three main protagonist - that is Rand, Percy and Mat - along with the characters that are introduce later like Elaine actually start off as naive, innocent and through experience and hardship grow into adults - you don't like them. Rand while understandably angsty, he does come off as a little ***** with a chip on his shoulder for six books all you hear is "I'm sorry, I don't want this, nobody should love me, It's my burden WAGH". Percy made the terrible mistake of marrying Faile which by far, hands down the annual winner of most unlikeable female supporting character in any fantasy novel. Min becomes needy, Elaine becomes desperate, Gweyn (think that's her name) was always miss poshy pants.

I really didn't like the characters, and by the end of it there were so damn many that you lost track of everything anyway. Plus Jordan had this thing where every character was either remarkably beautiful or profoundly ugly? Where did all the average people go?

Do yourself a favor and don't bother going ahead, while even I am curious as to how this series will finally end going past book 7 is like dragging your face through a cactus field in order to watch a lingerie model show. Sure it's a lingerie model show, but you left your eyes half a mile back in a bramble bush and you can't see anything anyway.

 

[DoW Lowen]

*snip*
I would love to hear from people who have read all of the Wheel of Time so far, and have them tell me of a better series.

Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin. Is one of the most original series you will ever read. He does everything Jordan tries to do but better in my opinion. However if you hate waiting for books perhaps this isn't best for you. At least Jordan has the excuse of being dead, but Martin keeps everyone waiting and waiting and waiting....

Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind. This was the first every fantasy series I ever got into with the exception of Harry Potter (which is still better than WoT for reasons I will explain later). It's quite funny how it's described as a fantasy book, the impression you get from it though is 'holy balls, this is some brutal shit'. The book isn't for escaping reality, it confronts you at every corner forces you to watch and live through the worse of human behavior. You feel dirty, ashamed and outright morbid by the end of it but at the same time there is always this theme of hope, the triumph of reason and mind, the power of passion and the genuinely good side of man is always underlying the horrors. It's a magnificent read, I'm sure the story has been done before in some shape or form, but the characters are remarkable - just wait until book six and you'll know what I mean (it's almost a shame he wrote book six, because every other book including the ones he wrote before it can never live up to it) - and it's not how original the story is, but how original it's told and I will wager a case of wine that nobody has told it with the style and verve that Goodkind has.

And finally

The Dark Tower by Stephen King. There are very few writers who will openly admit that they're ripping of Lord of the Rings in some manner, but King in his revised edition states in his opening lines. While Dark Tower certainly doesn't feel like LotR, I can see what he means. However the one thing that sets King apart from other writers and especially Jordan is that King doesn't write for himself. That pretentious and unconscious action that many authors have is that they always stand between their story and the reader - no, King avoids that at all cost (and so does Rowling, which is why I mentioned HP), there is no constant reiteration of the characters, no authoritative voice that looms over the narrative watching the reader from every corner of the page - it's a story, and that's all it is. It belongs to the characters within the words, but it also belongs to the reader. And that feeling you get from The Dark Tower is refreshing. Plus it has an awesome story. If I had to recommend one series to you it would be this one.

 

[Mr Thin]

Bottom Line: There are far better fantasy epics out there with far better writing. The works of Guy Gavriel Kay and David Eddings cover a similar page-count per book with better writing. Unless you're like me and have too much time to listen to them, with nothing else to listen to, save yourself a boatload of time and give these a pass.

I've read both of those authors (Tigana from Guy Gavriel Kay and The Belgariad series by David & Leigh Eddings). I absolutely loved Tigana, and I thought The Belgariad was awful. I'm not entirely sure why; I felt like the characters were trying to beat me over the head with how witty they thought they were. Bleugh. I've read worse, but not much worse.

And I loved, LOVED, The Wheel of Time series. Admittedly I've only read the first 10 books, but that's 8 more than you have.

Sorry, that sounded hostile and rude. This was a very well written and thoroughly thought-out review, I just thought you were wrong most of the way through it. To each his own, I suppose.

Thanks for confirming my initial suspicions about this series. Now's there less risk I will subject myself to it. Yet another fantasy series I will never read!

Nooooooooo! Do not deprive yourself of this enjoyment so casually! That way lies madness.

Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.

Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind.

The Dark Tower by Stephen King.

Yes. (Damn you Martin, hurry the hell up!)

Yes. (The best love story I've ever read.)

Yes. (Long Live the King!)

My four favourite series are The Wheel of Time and those three. Magnificent storytelling.

*snip*
I would love to hear from people who have read all of the Wheel of Time so far, and have them tell me of a better series.

Robin Hobb. The Farseer Trilogy, The Liveship Traders trilogy, The Tawny Man trilogy. I'd hesitate to call them better, because I love The Wheel of Time so damn much, but wow. Holy god damn. Read them.

 

[DoW Lowen]

Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.

Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind.

The Dark Tower by Stephen King.

Yes. (Damn you Martin, hurry the hell up!)

Yes. (The best love story I've ever read.)

Yes. (Long Live the King!)

My four favourite series are The Wheel of Time and those three. Magnificent storytelling.

Really you enjoyed the love story in Sword of Truth, I thought it was the weakest aspect of the entire series. Actually, in retrospect it was really well done, perhaps I'm just prejudiced towards Kahlan or because I just liked Nicci so damn much. Maybe if the character had just changed than I would've loved the romantic plot so much more.

Also Hi-5 on the favorite four! Although I would switch WoT with Harry Potter, don't judge me....

 

[Mr Thin]

Really you enjoyed the love story in Sword of Truth, I thought it was the weakest aspect of the entire series. Actually, in retrospect it was really well done, perhaps I'm just prejudiced towards Kahlan or because I just liked Nicci so damn much. Maybe if the character had just changed than I would've loved the romantic plot so much more.

Also Hi-5 on the favorite four! Although I would switch WoT with Harry Potter, don't judge me....

I return your Hi-5.

No judging here, I like HP too, just not as much. I'm a sucker for the epic.

Shame 'bout not liking Kahlan, though. I hate it when I dislike a main character in something I otherwise love, be it book, tv or film. (Unless, you know, it's a villain and I'm supposed to hate them.)

I would love to hear from people who have read all of the Wheel of Time so far, and have them tell me of a better series.

I've thought of even more!

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever, and The Gap Cycle, both by Stephen R Donaldson.

Oh, and Mordant's Need, also by him, though that's only two books, so I'm not sure if that actually counts as a series.

On second thought, just read everything by Stephen R Donaldson. Problem solved.

 

[Amyler]

Oh dear, the audio books. They came close to killing it for me the second time around, so. It may sound a weak arguement, but the novel is a much stronger "read" than the audio book. For one thing, it goes much faster.

The series undergoes some dramatic stuff in book's 11 and 12, but I suppose reccomending something "because it get's awesome later" is hardly a reccomendation at all. I can understand not liking them, I suppose, considering how verbose Jordan is, and from what I've seen, it's a love it or hate it read for most people.

On favorite series/books; The the Bartimaeus trilogy by Jonathan Stroud, Jasper Fforde (Who writes amusing and very strange books about book characters, the first one is called 'The Eyre Affair' if you are interested), and my favorite book, written by Cherith Baldry, The Reliquary ring.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

If your in the market for some good Fantasy novels, Weis and Hickman's The Well of Darkness [http://www.amazon.com/Well-Darkness-Sovereign-Stone-Trilogy/dp/0061020575] and the rest of the Sovereign Stone Trilogy are my favorites. Don't let the boring title put you off, the first book of the series, though this may be nostalgia speaking, breathtaking.

It's not nostalgia speaking Pimppeter, Well of Darkness was indeed a good book - it didn't start out particularly strong mind you, but once the initial 'world-building' was out of the way and the story proper kicked into gear it quickly left me wanting to read more. Of course, when I first read it the last two parts of the trilogy had not been published, so I had to impatiently wait, blargh.

Unfortunately, while still good books, something changed between book 1 and 2, and the concluding parts of the trilogy somehow felt... disconnected from the first. There were certainly some interesting things going on mind you, and I don't think Weiss and Hickman are capable of writing a book without at least 1 scene I find emotionally devastating/gripping, but as a trilogy I think that series really fell short of the bar the first novel set. Still good books though, just not quite as good as they should have been, if you get where I'm coming from.

And now I have to ask: Have you ever read their Death Gate cycle novels? If not, you really need to, as that 7-book story arc is the best damn fantasy series I've ever read - if you thought the Sovereign Stone trilogy was fantastic, you'll learn why I came away entertained but still somewhat disappointed by it, as The Death Gate cycle is Weiss and Hickman's masterpiece.

If you have read them before though, I now think you're crazy for liking the Sovereign Stone trilogy better, ha ha.

 

[spartan231490]

I find it difficult to disagree more. I think that Jordan was an amazing writer and that the story is about as unique as a fantasy can get. If you boil down any sword and sorcery fantasy series far enough, you will get, sheltered peasant is forced into the world and discovers that his destiny is one of magic, power and intrigue. Said peasant now saves world. Thats why we like it, if you dont, pick a different genre. Jordan's "true source" is an interesting interperetation of magic, adn his world is nicely varied and in my opinion, believable. I will agree that it is a little stale, but not as bad as the op indicated. The people of the world took 3 millenia to recover from the "breaking of the world" far fetched, but understandable, the books allude to technology surpassing ours before the breaking, and by book 6 or so, it is shown that many of these wonders could be returned if young al thor wins his battle with the dark one, "tairmon Gaidon".

He will break the world again!!!!!

I just wish the next book will come out soon.

This isn't a series for the casual reader. It is rather to be for those who enjoy more story.... not saying Tolkien was horrible, he just wasn't a great writer, he had more original ideas, but hey..... he was a drunk who couldn't remember how he spelled things one book to the next!

I would love to hear from people who have read all of the Wheel of Time so far, and have them tell me of a better series.

I have, i like Sword of truth, by terry goodkind, its another big one, but at least it's completed. also, both the alpha and omega series, and the mercy thompson series both by patricia briggs are good, not finished, but good. not sword and scorcery though, they are supernatural/werewolve books.

 

[spartan231490]

Far more interesting (to me) than your last review. Though it was a bit convoluted at times.

The only glaring fault I found was that the second paragraph should have been split up to 3 or four paragraphs. Great review overall, though a tad bit dry.

Thanks there. Well, considering what the last "review" I did I wrote in... July, I think... there have been some drastic changes in what I believed/now believe make a good review, the 3 RWs I've judged really helped that. I chose a drier tone because I feel that humor is so rarely done well in reviews, I probably could write with more personality but I wanted to get the facts out there without any bullshit. I'm not surprised you wouldn't have guessed I do stand-up. Even people who know me personally often don't know until I'm up on stage. I guess the silly, leading into the inane, tendencies of the Escapist user base have formed me into sort of a "straight man" on the net.

I find it difficult to disagree more. I think that Jordan was an amazing writer and that the story is about as unique as a fantasy can get. If you boil down any sword and sorcery fantasy series far enough, you will get, sheltered peasant is forced into the world and discovers that his destiny is one of magic, power and intrigue. Said peasant now saves world. Thats why we like it, if you dont, pick a different genre. Jordan's "true source" is an interesting interperetation of magic, adn his world is nicely varied and in my opinion, believable. I will agree that it is a little stale, but not as bad as the op indicated. The people of the world took 3 millenia to recover from the "breaking of the world" far fetched, but understandable, the books allude to technology surpassing ours before the breaking, and by book 6 or so, it is shown that many of these wonders could be returned if young al thor wins his battle with the dark one, "tairmon Gaidon".

What you said about the sword-and-sorcery genre could not be more wrong. I have read terrific fantasy novels where no world saving, no peasants and very little of the bullshit people seem to think modern fantasy needs, in order to be defined as fantasy. Other than that I can't really argue with your post. Like most things, it's entirely subjective. Needless to say we have vastly different tastes in fantasy.

snip

snip

Hey BenMan, long time no see. Glad to see you 'round the forums again.
See, the thing is, I don't really like it now. I'm over half way through the 3rd book and I'm not enjoying it, I don't want to have to trudge through many more hours of audio books just to find out if it gets better.

Since both of you mentioned a good setting what I will say is this: things appeared interesting, at first, to me. I liked the concept of the steadings, the ways and the portal stones I felt like I'd seen before but they worked well enough. The thing is almost every one of those instances of a location I liked did only what it should. It functioned for it's part of the story. It didn't leave me, the reader, with any sense of atmosphere or wonderment at anything and it's important, in world-building, to evoke those feelings. I'll repeat what I said before because I feel this accurately describes this situation, too. I felt like Jordan bit off a bit too much. He created this entire world and insodoing left him with so much to create that they all had a great facade, but after I walked past that they were wooden and empty. Again, arguing about writing is something totally subjective. I can see how people could be drawn into his world. I wasn't, and I felt that my time was better spent with other writers.

We disagree, oh well.

Im curious, what sword-and-scorcery novels have you read that don't fit my pattern? I know there are lots of fantasy books that dont, but I have yet to read a sword-and-scorcery that didnt, and i would be interested in doing so.

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Urr...Conan? It started the genre. *shrug* Or "Elric" from Moorcock.

There's a big difference between Sword and Sorcery and Epic fantasy. WoT isn't really SaS but Epic Fantasy. But that's me being picky.

Malazan Book of the Fallen series if you want. 10 books series(9 is out, numero 10 is out soon(End of this year or beginning of next). Yes an Epic Fantasy Doorstep series is going to end. Rare this days folks) really big, really confusing, very DnDihs sometimes though.

Anyway, can't really say what it's about cause nobody has a clue to what it is about. There's something like 50 different main characters(None comes from a village and used to be a farmer), at least 5 different continents with different mythologies, shit load of different races(no elves or dwarfs), a lot of badass characters.(In most series the guy with the super sword that turns into a dragon is usually the most powerful guy, in Malazan there's more badass than that guy), and an elder race of humans who took a vow to hunt crazy people who would want to conquer the world for this they decided to turn immortal. They did not think it through, as they been living for thousands of years without eternal rest.

But if you want, I guess the story is about a Fallen God who wants to have revenge on everything living. Not in the bad villainous way. Basically the poor guy was dragged from his own realm to the world of Malazan, so some peasant summoners could obliterate an Empire ruled by a nasty guy, in just one blow. It turns out that the summoned God isn't compatible with Malazan world and it started to poison the Malazan world. so the Gods in Malazan chained the poor bastard, so he wouldn't be a bother. Thousands of years later the guy is pissed and it's about to screw everyone.

That or could be about a fat guy that robs people with magic. There's plenty of characters to choose about.

P.S:In Malazan magic is everywhere and due to it being VERY useful, people don't bother to advance technology. There's a scene where a guy says there used to be a thing called surgery but due to potent healing magic, no one bothered learning it.
Though there's bombs.


P.P.S:There's a race of creatures in Malazan that can be summed like this: Undead Velociraptors with swords for arms. Yeah *****...

 

[Fightgarr]

Im curious, what sword-and-scorcery novels have you read that don't fit my pattern? I know there are lots of fantasy books that dont, but I have yet to read a sword-and-scorcery that didnt, and i would be interested in doing so.

I'm a huge fan of Patricia A. McKillip. If you ever get the chance to read her works, they are truly beautiful. Her trilogy is pretty standard fare, but try The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, A Song for the Basilisk, The Alphabet of Thorn or The Book of Atrix Wolfe if you can. McKillip is a poet, and as a result her descriptions are gorgeous to the point of abstraction at certain points. Louis McMaster Bujold is mostly a sci-fi writer, but they wrote 2 fantasy novels that go together called Curse of the Chalion and Paladin of Souls which are both fantastic. The second book of the LeGuin's Eathsea saga called The Tombs of Atuan is great. Gormanghast by Mervyn Peak isn't quite sword-and-sorcery fantasy, but is a surreal medieval novel. It's great, but it's super super dense. At the moment that's all that's coming to mind in that respect, but I'll edit in some more if I can think of them.

EDIT: I'd like to add in that I am currently seeking out the audio book for the first book of Song of Ice and Fire since that has been highly recommended by people on this site on several occasions. I would read it, but all of my free time will be taken up with improving my portfolio this summer.

 

[ThaBenMan]

Percy

Who the hell is Percy? You mean Perrin?

 

[DoW Lowen]

Percy

Who the hell is Percy? You mean Perrin?

Yeah, by bad it's been about four years since I picked up the book.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Percy

Who the hell is Percy? You mean Perrin?

Yeah, by bad it's been about four years since I picked up the book.

I can only imagine the hatred you felt for the character when you got Faile's name right, but not Perrin, Elayne, or Egwene.

Especially since Faile is finally likable by book 11 or 12.

 

[spartan231490]

*snip*

Urr...Conan? It started the genre. *shrug* Or "Elric" from Moorcock.

There's a big difference between Sword and Sorcery and Epic fantasy. WoT isn't really SaS but Epic Fantasy. But that's me being picky.

Malazan Book of the Fallen series if you want. 10 books series(9 is out, numero 10 is out soon(End of this year or beginning of next). Yes an Epic Fantasy Doorstep series is going to end. Rare this days folks) really big, really confusing, very DnDihs sometimes though.

Anyway, can't really say what it's about cause nobody has a clue to what it is about. There's something like 50 different main characters(None comes from a village and used to be a farmer), at least 5 different continents with different mythologies, shit load of different races(no elves or dwarfs), a lot of badass characters.(In most series the guy with the super sword that turns into a dragon is usually the most powerful guy, in Malazan there's more badass than that guy), and an elder race of humans who took a vow to hunt crazy people who would want to conquer the world for this they decided to turn immortal. They did not think it through, as they been living for thousands of years without eternal rest.

But if you want, I guess the story is about a Fallen God who wants to have revenge on everything living. Not in the bad villainous way. Basically the poor guy was dragged from his own realm to the world of Malazan, so some peasant summoners could obliterate an Empire ruled by a nasty guy, in just one blow. It turns out that the summoned God isn't compatible with Malazan world and it started to poison the Malazan world. so the Gods in Malazan chained the poor bastard, so he wouldn't be a bother. Thousands of years later the guy is pissed and it's about to screw everyone.

That or could be about a fat guy that robs people with magic. There's plenty of characters to choose about.

P.S:In Malazan magic is everywhere and due to it being VERY useful, people don't bother to advance technology. There's a scene where a guy says there used to be a thing called surgery but due to potent healing magic, no one bothered learning it.
Though there's bombs.


P.P.S:There's a race of creatures in Malazan that can be summed like this: Undead Velociraptors with swords for arms. Yeah *****...

So your arguement is based on one series? And how exactly is WoT, not a SaS fantasy? the main character is a sword and magic master, as are 95% of his enemies.