DRM, Censorship, you brought it on yourselves.

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The_General

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Fact is, DRM is useless anyway. It bothers the honest customers and pirates can circumvent it in less than two weeks. I have pirated entertainment before, in fact 75% of the people with PCs have at some point pirated entertainment. What i think is that we today are mostly too egoistic to care for the game developers. As I see it, there are two solutions to the pirate problem:

1. Steam, and the like. Well, it isn't 110% foolproof, but I rarely see pirated Steam games.

2. Incentive. Give us gamers and users a REASON not to pirate besides "It'sillegal" and "You're hurting the developers". An incentive to get the real deal. Stardock did this with Galactic Civilizations II by making it so that you could play the game without a serial number no problem, but if you wanted patches and DLC, you were going to need it. Also, the customization part of the game was largely dependent on you being able to go online to share your stuff.
 

beddo

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As DRM is easily cracked and pirated games are almost always available before general release I would say it's a safe assumption that no system will ever be 'pirate proof'.

Given this, I don't think that anything above basic copy protection is necessary or warranted. For example, on the consoles people can share games, this is completely legal. On the PC it really seems like publishers are trying to stop this basic borrowing of games. A good example of this is Spore, where initially no more than one person could have an 'account' to play on.

Needless to say, the backlash against such intrusive DRM has been damaging towards EA's reputation. Moreover, this level of DRM risks breaching some consumer rights.

Prince of Persia on PC has no DRM, you can play it without the CD. I like this feature but this makes it simple for people to give it to their friends without any difficulties.

I would be in favour of simple, non-invasive DRM checks. Things such as having the disc in the drive and/or a licence key that you put in.

Although, I think all titles should become free to all after 10 years so that we can preserve all titles.
 

beddo

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I have had major problems with DRM. I had a prolonged argument with a 3D software company about their DRM which would consistenly stop the product functioning when I did something like update the drivers. Each time I would have to format and reinstall windows, send them a request etc. It got to a ridiculous point where my initial key ran out of authorisations! I complained, saying that the idea that I had run out of keys was ridiculous, that I bought the programme, not x number of installs.

They may have thought that I was pirating it somehow, in the end they gave me a refund through the reseller.
 

Lord Krunk

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SL33TBL1ND said:
I don't like piracy, especialy when someone is pirating an indie game, like a big company still isn't good but is slightly easier to justify but making some poor guy who made an entire game by himself lose all his money is just downright mean.
It seems that most of the pirates here are only doing it as a *cough* retaliation against the corporate suits *cough*. They seem to think that this justifies their acts as well.

However, this does not apply to Indie games, which are often quite excellent (and the most pirated, due to a lack of advanced security), and support some great game devs, resulting in more (and sometimes better) games being produced. However, as stated above, when their revenue is stolen by some tight-ass retards, it causes the inverse effect, and reduces their willingness (or even ability) to make new games.

This leads me back to one of my original messages; piracy kills the industry, either inadvertently or directly, and in turn affects gaming-related industries such as The Escapist.

And this, in turn, leads to another statement: Piracy is stealing, and it is not justifiable, Big Publisher or Small.
 

Wicky_42

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Metal Genesis said:
I am a software developer myself and a strong proponent for outright digital theft in today's climate. Don't get me wrong, I think developers and IP owners/creators should be reasonably compensated and that promotion/marketing/lawyering are a necessary evil. It's the larger infrastructure, monopoly, and unabashed greed I disagree with. The reason I pirate/crack, and I think the prime driving force for piracy today is the inordinate pricing of IP despite what should be severe mitigating factors.

The industries have moved from slow/expensive magnetic disks and tapes to mostly plastic disks with no moving parts and nearly instant duplication; not to mention digital distribution which is essentially free. So ...you used to make huge tapes, wind it around a spindle, attach it to another spindle, seal it in a cartridge with at least 3 moving parts, silk-screened it, inserted into a hard case with more printed media, loaded it onto a truck and delivered it to a brick-and-mortar who added significant overhead to cover their operating costs and their liability for underselling the product. ...and now you deliver it with as little effort as those emails that promise to make my junk bigger ...and it costs more money.

Also, the market share has exploded. Developers aren't slaving away for 200 graphic design professionals or financial analysts who might or might not want their software. They are developing for a huge community of users, you are buying one millionth of one developers/creators time. If an artist produced five million prints, exactly how much are those prints worth? At what point does the reward so far outstrip the effort that we take notice? I guess that is a bigger issue than software/IP, but can we seriously say as a nation that "Oops I did it again" was worth one hundred and fifty million dollars? The industries want me to feel guilty for "stealing" ten dollars from someone who squandered over 60 million dollars of her net worth before she was 30? I just don't believe it is fair to rent digital information for recreational use at ten dollars a pop. I'd say purchasing, but I don't consider it ownership unless I can take it to a pawn shop and use it to buy back grandma's wheelchair. *insert miscellaneous fair-use rant here*

Also, more specifically within the gaming industry, tool-sets have improved dramatically. Developers aren't working from scratch, most all software leverages modern technology and methodologies. Quake and Cry Engines aside, even the low-level APIs and IDEs are easier than ever. You don't have to build and debug your own clipping routines to publish a shoot-em-up.

I think piracy could be cut to a minimum if reasonable, transparent business practices were put in place. I have and would pay 10c for a song, I think most people would, it just doesn't sit right giving apple 35% for their veritable musical monopoly and producers 55% for ...uhm producing.
Ok, so that's a huge ***** about how little it costs to make the disks? And you try to use that to portray large software developers as money grabbing corporate bastrds? Fail.

Great, so the media has become cheaper, but have you looked at the credits list on ANY modern game? See all those names? Those are employees. Now, you have to pay employees, which takes money. Now, just like with any manufacturing business, a game development company needs to look at how much it can expect to sell its games for, make an estimate for how many said games will be sold, and then add of the desired profit so the company can develop - this is a capitalist society, after all.

All this estimation gives them a budget within which to work in order to not make a loss. If they make a loss, people loose their jobs. Which is bad. If a large company produced a game, and one person bought it and cracked it and distributed it online and EVERYONE else just downloaded that copy, how much do you think that one person would have had to pay for the company not to immediately go bust? Oh, perhaps the ENTIRE cost of development, plus overheads, plus media production and distribution costs.

Now, if a company is only able to make a little headway from its sales because so many of them are taken away by piracy, then they are going to make less profit. A company with less money to fall back on in case of a poorly received game is much less likely to take a risk with something new or edgy or innovative (I mean, just look at the reception of DoWII - just a few significant changes and many fans of the original were baying for blood o.0 It doesn't take much to scare people off - many of us seem to be a conservative lot).

This all results in us getting the same stuff constantly recycled with pretty graphics and a couple of particular features, because companies aren't confident enough that people will spend money on something new - they'd probably just pirate it 'just to see if they like it', so the company sees no money, so they drop that line of investigation.

I find it fucking ironic that, as a software dev, you condone piracy - I mean, do you even intend to earn money from your work, or is it all charity to people who can't be bothered to pay for what they use? Seriously, validating piracy because disks are cheaper than magnetic tape if ludicrous, and easily the worst validation I've read here.
 

Lord Krunk

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Updates Ahoy! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.86308.1275042]

Check out the OP, it's quite substantial.
 

killme

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Jun 18, 2008
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Rath709 said:
In Britain, because I own a TV for gaming and DVD purposes, I'm forced to pay for a TV liscense to fund a corporation whose programming I don't even watch, radio services I don't listen to and whose websites I don't make use of. If you ask me, the BBC are the pirates.
errr.. no you're not.. if you read the license it says something about receiving transmitted signals.. if you just use it for dvd and games then you don't have to pay

if you phone up the tv licensing people and say i have a tv but i only use it for DVDs then they'll tell you you don't have to pay.

as long as when they send the "detector" van round you can prove that you don't watch tv (i don't have an aerial or satelite dish and no cable between the tv and the wall) then you're in the clear..

sorry off topic.. carry on
 

Lord Krunk

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megapenguinx said:
The video game crash was brought upon by a flooding of the market, not piracy....
It was caused because people stopped buying their games, and because of the publishers' predictions causing them no make idiotic decisions, ultimately leading to their downfall.

I see no difference.
 

Siris

Everyone's Favorite Transvestite
Jan 15, 2009
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I think it is acceptable only for things unable to obtain. Things that are out of print or too old

Fire Daemon said:
EDIT: GoW on PC though was a blunder. You have a right to ***** about that.
QFT
 

cuddly_tomato

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Nov 12, 2008
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Lord Krunk said:
megapenguinx said:
The video game crash was brought upon by a flooding of the market, not piracy....
It was caused because people stopped buying their games, and because of the publishers' predictions causing them no make idiotic decisions, ultimately leading to their downfall.

I see no difference.
People don't have an obligation to buy games. If the game companies want us to buy games then their best chance is to make good games and finish them off before putting them on the shelves.

Constantly over-hyping, outright lying about crap that isn't there, and releasing your game half done and broken then complaining that nobody is buying it is an excersise in stupidity. No, it's the olympics of stupidity. Then blaming it all on pirates, and adding a feature which does NOTHING to hurt pirates but everything to make people consider piracy (DRM) goes beyond stupid. This is so stupid it is probably illegal in some countries.
 

Lord Krunk

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Siris said:
I think it is acceptable only for things unable to obtain. Things that are out of print or too old
I don't know much about that; isn't it called 'Abandonware' or something?

cuddly_tomato said:
Lord Krunk said:
megapenguinx said:
The video game crash was brought upon by a flooding of the market, not piracy....
It was caused because people stopped buying their games, and because of the publishers' predictions causing them no make idiotic decisions, ultimately leading to their downfall.

I see no difference.
People don't have an obligation to buy games. If the game companies want us to buy games then their best chance is to make good games and finish them off before putting them on the shelves.

Constantly over-hyping, outright lying about crap that isn't there, and releasing your game half done and broken then complaining that nobody is buying it is an excersise in stupidity. No, it's the olympics of stupidity. Then blaming it all on pirates, and adding a feature which does NOTHING to hurt pirates but everything to make people consider piracy (DRM) goes beyond stupid. This is so stupid it is probably illegal in some countries.
Thanks, I forgot one of the excuses.
 

Wyatt

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Feb 14, 2008
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one mans 'justification' is another mans simple truth. ive had a few runins with tomato but in this cases hes 100% right.

lord Krunk the way you continue to try and defend game companys that have screwed over every person whos ever bought a game in one way or another is like trying too put a happy face on the Nazis. what they do is not just a little bit wrong but its in the realm of EPIC wrong. you may call it 'justification' but everyone who has ever been fucked by a video games company and that means pretty much anyone who has ever bought a video game ....... well we call it justice.

game companys will either learn the lession that their customers are tired of getting fucked , or they will go out of business and the next batch of companys to open their doors will have that same choice either make a good product and offer a good service or dont even bother. we are ALL tired of being fucked and at this point there isnt an iota of sympath or even tolerance for any game company out there today. your pissing in the wind if you think otherwise.
 

cuddly_tomato

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Lord Krunk said:
New update, I now have a 5th 'justification', which can be found on the OP.
What "justification" did I give? I gave reasons, not excuses. Game companies are getting more and more unethical in the way they do business, and are blaming this on the pirates. I call "bullshit". DRM is more about choking the 2nd hand game industry as we all know it actually causes piracy, and does nothing to stop it. Hype, and backlashes against hype causing falling sales, are nothing to do with pirates. And, I know this is a really radical idea, but actually finishing the fucking game before trying to sell it too us might just make a few more people buy it instead of waiting for a few days to download and test it.

These are the facts. Game developers have sickened a large part of their market with their behaviour, the market is just responding to an alternative that is available. Even eliminating cost entirely (i.e. if games were all free) pirated games work better than the vanilla versions. You don't need to put a CD in the drive with a pirated games. You don't have spyware (SecuROM) with pirated games. You don't have limited installs or stuff like Starforce wrecking your PC.

Look Krunk, this is the reality of the situation - the pirates are offering a better user-end experience than the commercial games market right now, and the reason for this is not because pirates are doing a lot of hard work, the reason is that games companies are fucking with us. All you are seeing is market forces in action. The gaming industries entire business model is broken, and they broke it themselves in an attempt to make more money inspite of the fact they are doing rather well at a time when other businesses are going bankrupt. They need to fix their business by making legitimate games fun to own again, instead of a pain in the arse. If they don't do that then piracy will continue to flourish.
 

AndyFromMonday

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Why is Piracy so bad? Not only that you can download it and try it before buying it( I do that, I'm better of downloading a game for the PC, try it out see if I like it or not, then go buy it for the console), but the people who actually download games, and keep 'em, are not that many. And at most, the company barely loses some money from the stack they get every month.
 

Railu

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Aug 7, 2008
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AndyFromMonday said:
Why is Piracy so bad? Not only that you can download it and try it before buying it( I do that, I'm better of downloading a game for the PC, try it out see if I like it or not, then go buy it for the console), but the people who actually download games, and keep 'em, are not that many. And at most, the company barely loses some money from the stack they get every month.
If you want to 'try it before you buy it', obtain a demo of the game. If there is no demo, there are plenty of ways to figure out if it's a worth while investment that don't involve piracy.

The company 'barely loses money'? Are you a jerk or just thick? Most games don't even break even. With all the game companies folding because of lack of revenue, you still stand there and try to justify piracy?

Let me tell you why you're 100% wrong. I just got laid off. I'm a game programmer. Insufficient revenues to continue financing more titles. I'm out of work thanks to people like you.

So, now, tell me how great piracy is again. I'm dying to hear it.
 

megapenguinx

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Lord Krunk said:
megapenguinx said:
The video game crash was brought upon by a flooding of the market, not piracy....
It was caused because people stopped buying their games, and because of the publishers' predictions causing them no make idiotic decisions, ultimately leading to their downfall.

I see no difference.
Wait what?
That response was very convoluted. Yes they stopped buying their games, because there were too many options. I know it doesn't make any sense but if you give people too muchchoice, they tend to shy away from those kinds of products. Piracy wasn't one of the main factors.
Quoted from wikipedia: "There were several reasons for the crash, but the main cause was over saturation of the market with dozens of consoles and hundreds of mostly low-quality games"

EDIT: I'm not advocating piracy in any way. I'm just correcting one of your facts.