DRM, really what the hell

[teisjm]

Isn't steam still limiting you from playing the games if you're off-line? even the single player ones? correct em if i'm wrong, i'm not a big user of steam, so maybe i got something wrong, but in case i'm not, isn't it a kick in the balls to be unable to play games on, say, your labtop if you're somewhere without acces to the internet. Not everyone has portable internet dungles.

Steam has the ability to run in an 'offline' mode. So if your internet connection is not working and you have run the game before, it will still allow you to run the game. That just isn't the case when you install/first time play, then an online connection is required. I have run steam games on a laptop while on a plane with no problems.

OT: People always ask what's the point of DRM. It doesn't stop pirates from playing the game. While that is true, if you talk to certain companies what they are trying to stop with DRM is the average person. You see it all the time with console games, someone asks 'Hey, can I borrow that' and you give the game to that person to play... So now you have a 2nd person playing the game for free when they should have paid the developer. Imagine what happens on a college campus, one person buys the game and then shares it with a this dorm buddy, who rips a copy and hands it to the guy next door, etc. That is what they afraid of, and it does happen. I'm not saying it's right or that I agree with it. I am just trying to give an example of some of the logic behind this.

I believe all that most DRM does is punish the lawful people by policing their computers. (e.g. that Sony DRM POS.) I think install limits are complete BS. As someone who has upgraded hardware numerous times and re-installs the OS a lot I think a company saying 'Oh, you reloaded your system 6 times in one year, sorry you need to shell out $50 again for the privledge of playing our game' is utter nonsense. There are better ways of doing this without installing additional software on my computer.

pardon my lacking knowledge of steam, argument withdrawn.

About the console thing, aren't you allowed to borrow your stuff to other people?
Am i a pirate if i put on music unless i'm completely alone, or oly surrounded by peopel who has also bought that CD?
Are movies on DVD a complete single player wiever experience unless you're a criminal?
Am i allowed to let my friends play my game on MY console if they're visiting?
Am i even allowed to watch my friends play their games?
Is selling used cars, clothes or anything else piracy as well?
Should cars have finger print identification, so only the person who paid for teh car can drive it?
maybe add that to controlelrs, so they'll shock everyone who tries to touch them but the person who bought it.

I honestly hate the fact, that DRM changes the exchance of money for game from "i buy this game, now i own this copy of it" to "i pay you for the right to play your game, and i have no ownership over anything, not even my own copy"

No matter what game were talking about, no matter how hyped i am about it, wouldn't buy it if it had shit like limited installs, not cause i'm planning on installing it on all my friends computers, heck if i like the game, i'll try and get them to buy it too so we can play online (if it has MP) But while it's prolly not gonan be a problem if it has severeal installs, i just don't like the idea, that i might risk havng to pay for teh game again.

 

[Icecoldcynic]

I have never, and will never support DRM. It's not like it hinders pirates in any way. If someone is determined enough to pirate a game, they're determined enough to find ways around that sort of thing. It's a waste of everyone's time and just causes problems.

 

[Xanadu84]

Best and most likely Scenario: The DRM will be gone soon. Companies love money. DRM removes there ability to make as much as they could, and does absolutely nothing to stop pirates. Eventually, DRM will be removed, and you won't even notice it. Worst case scenario: you can only play Borderlands DLC during 5 major hardware upgrades. My computers are usually replaced about once every 6 years, and ill upgrade the video card maybe twice, so that's 2 years per activation max. So for me, if I keep Borderlands installed to play continuously, I won't have a problem playing it for a decade. Still worth 10 bucks.

It is unnecessarily invasive and ineffective though. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but I can't help but think that a lot of game developers have decided that consoles are more profitable, and try to force PC players in that direction. I don't pirate, but its no wonder that people do.

 

[Worgen]

a drm bullshit install limit on dlc? thats effin weird and makes me not even want to get the real game since it will give them money

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management - which sounds innocuous until you realize that the 'rights' part is shorthand for "right to screw over your paying customers". With DRM, consumers have no rights at all.

If the companies that pushed crap legislation like the DMCA through congress had their way, if you wanted to listen to a song on a portable mp3 player, your computer, and in your car's CD player, you would have to pay for it 3 times (one for each device you want to use it with!). That is the entire point of DRM - it's a sneaky, underhanded, and absolutely loathsome way to legally rip people off by making them buy the same content over and over. Piracy is just a straw man used to justify DRM, because it sounds much better to say you're combating piracy instead of "devising ways to make you pay for things you've already purchased again".

Don't even get me started on publishers who bundle additional DRM on top of games on Steam (never mind that the retail copy only had a simple disc check, so looking at you Arkham Asylum).

 

[Monshroud]

I'm going to do my best to tackle these good questions. Again, I am not trying to jusitfy why companies do this crap. As I stated I am against it. I am just trying to help you understand a bit, cause legal crap is way to complicated.

BTW: I live in the US and cannot speak to any laws or restrictions in other countries.

About the console thing, aren't you allowed to borrow your stuff to other people?

Legally that all depends. For instance, you can't lend your drivers license to a friend so he can drive. Legally you can't/shouldn't give prescription drugs to a friend or family that were prescribed to you. Even though those things are your property. Now a blender is a different matter...

Am i a pirate if i put on music unless i'm completely alone, or oly surrounded by peopel who has also bought that CD?
Are movies on DVD a complete single player wiever experience unless you're a criminal?
Am i allowed to let my friends play my game on MY console if they're visiting?
Am i even allowed to watch my friends play their games?

Ok, these are all kind of tied together. You are allowed to watch a movie / listen to music with friends, or bring a movie you own/rented to a friends house. That's because you are in possession of that Movie/CD/Game during these events. Now even that has limits though, you can't for instance play that movie at a theater and charge admission to see it. Actually even if you setup a projector in a public park for an event you advertise, you don't have the legal right to do that either.

For the most part (it can be a fuzzy legal matter here) you can lend a friend a movie or CD provided they don't copy it. Because there is still only a single instance of the property in question.

Where this changes is mainly on a PC game. The games don't play exclusively on the CD/DVD, the data is copied to the machine, in that copying of the game to a second machine that you don't own, you are breaking the license agreement. (Yes I know some crappy DRM only let's you install on one single machine, those people are dumb and should be punished.)

Is selling used cars, clothes or anything else piracy as well?
Should cars have finger print identification, so only the person who paid for teh car can drive it?

Ok, see what you said there. Sell... Sell implies the transfer of a piece of property, you will no longer own it. Now certain items that you buy are non-transferable. For instance a warranty. Read the fine print on most items that offer a lifetime warranty and you will see that they only offer that warranty to the original purchaser (usually with a receipt as proof).

I honestly hate the fact, that DRM changes the exchance of money for game from "i buy this game, now i own this copy of it" to "i pay you for the right to play your game, and i have no ownership over anything, not even my own copy"

No matter what game were talking about, no matter how hyped i am about it, wouldn't buy it if it had shit like limited installs, not cause i'm planning on installing it on all my friends computers, heck if i like the game, i'll try and get them to buy it too so we can play online (if it has MP) But while it's prolly not gonan be a problem if it has severeal installs, i just don't like the idea, that i might risk havng to pay for teh game again.

I agree with you on this. There have been plenty of PC games that I have not bought because of DRM. I hear Crysis is a great game, I wouldn't know, haven't played it because it installs SecuROM (sp?) on your system. I don't mind Steam so much because I have not found it to be so restrictive. Although I do admit I wonder what happens should Steam ever go away, do all the games I purchased stop working.. Do I hope that developers will release a DRM-removal patch before it goes away? It's a chance that I take...

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yes, toast is awesome. I'd suck it up, quit complaining and buy the DLC. DRM might suck but having a little pout over it buy not buying anything and complaining helps no one.

 

[Slaanax]

I remember old games before the internet was common, copyright protection would ask you a question about the rulebook or something he he.

 

[_zuul]

if you talk to certain companies what they are trying to stop with DRM is the average person. You see it all the time with console games, someone asks 'Hey, can I borrow that' and you give the game to that person to play... So now you have a 2nd person playing the game for free when they should have paid the developer.

but it's not fair

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh...........

ok, i'm done whining.

 

[Mr. GameBrain]

if you talk to certain companies what they are trying to stop with DRM is the average person. You see it all the time with console games, someone asks 'Hey, can I borrow that' and you give the game to that person to play... So now you have a 2nd person playing the game for free when they should have paid the developer.

but people already do that with console games all the time.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh...........

ok, i'm done whining.

If that was the case then why aren't highstreet retailers going crazy over DRM, as pre-owned games make them a tidy sum, and if developers are trying to cut out a gaming service embedded in our culture, what does that really say about videogame companies these days?

 

[mikecoulter]

I don't really see the point. As long as there is an activation key... Ahh good old days.

 

[Pielikey]

Yeah, DRM is the biggest pain in the ass ever. They might as well give you a code wheel or algebra equasion or trained snakes.

And Peanut butter on toast Ftw.

 

[Good morning blues]

As Tycho of Penny Arcade said,

It is not a mischaracterization to say that conversations with the hardcore PC community about software theft follow these tenets:

- There is no piracy.
- To the extent that piracy exists, which it doesn't, it's your fault.
- If you try to protect your game, we'll steal it as a matter of principle.

It's like, who wouldn't want to bend over backward in their service? You need to know it, because nobody else is going to tell you: you guys sound like Goddamned subway vagrants. Of course when you speak exclusively to each other, it all sounds so reasonable. It'll be reasonable when you all board the bus, and the songs you sing en route to excoriate your enemies will be forceful, but within reason; and when you douse yourself with gasoline and immolate yourself in front of the offices of Infinity Ward, one assumes this will be reasonable also.

 

[Snotnarok]

DRM explaned.

When companies get butthurt by pirates they decide that they'll punish all their non-pirate costumers to vent their rage, and maybe get the costumers to hate pirates.

I can't imagine that they're really stupid enogh to think, that the game won't be pirated anyways, and in some way, they're just making it that much more tempting to pirate it, since you'll actually get a "better" game, due to the fact that the pirated version doens't have DRM.

Companies using DRM is like fucktards who beats their children caus etheir boss was after them earlier at work that day.

Gamers should make a statement, and NEVER buy shit with crappy DRM.

I know you can fake online with hamachi and shit like that, but I would still think, that the online part of most games, is enough to make people buy the game instead of pirating it.

Hold on good sir/sirs who may be reading this, here's the biggest kick of logic yet for this little discussion.

Steam is a DRM client already it limits who can use the copy namely you use it, so the game and DLC are on steam so this EXTRA DRM with limited installs is just redundant and is totally aimed at the customers. (Steam being a DRM that doesn't limit installs just access to it)

To top it off the game has no DRM, infact the retail DVD version DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER . So the game is secured by Steam, (a DRM that I'm fond of because it doesn't rob the customer) and not secured at all with a disc, but the DLC is secured with DRM, what the hell? I hope I get a response saying there's a retail version with no DRM that I can share with you all because it's massive BS to do this.
...

Isn't steam still limiting you from playing the games if you're off-line? even the single player ones? correct em if i'm wrong, i'm not a big user of steam, so maybe i got something wrong, but in case i'm not, isn't it a kick in the balls to be unable to play games on, say, your labtop if you're somewhere without acces to the internet. Not everyone has portable internet dungles.

I haven't really played much without online but I believe you have to "activate" offline mode with games and it'll work. But there's worse forms of DRM.

 

[Snotnarok]

This is the wonderful computer generated response I received from my email to Gearbox:

Mike,

Thanks for writing us with your question. When you install Zombie Island, it uses one of your 5 activations. You are able to re-download and re-install as many times as you like on that PC. If you format your hard drive, reinstall your operating system, or switch to a different computer, you will need to use another activation when you reinstall Zombie Island. This does not affect your ability to reinstall the original game in any way.

Thanks again for writing, and for your interest in Borderlands downloadable content!

Regards,
Gearbox Software Support

It's almost insulting but whatever I honestly didn't expect to get a response from them especially on the matter of why they use software that hates consumers and ignore pirates.

 

[ffs-dontcare]

DRM explaned.

When companies get butthurt by pirates they decide that they'll punish all their non-pirate costumers to vent their rage, and maybe get the costumers to hate pirates.

I can't imagine that they're really stupid enogh to think, that the game won't be pirated anyways, and in some way, they're just making it that much more tempting to pirate it, since you'll actually get a "better" game, due to the fact that the pirated version doens't have DRM.

Companies using DRM is like fucktards who beats their children caus etheir boss was after them earlier at work that day.

Gamers should make a statement, and NEVER buy shit with crappy DRM.

I know you can fake online with hamachi and shit like that, but I would still think, that the online part of most games, is enough to make people buy the game instead of pirating it.

Hold on good sir/sirs who may be reading this, here's the biggest kick of logic yet for this little discussion.

Steam is a DRM client already it limits who can use the copy namely you use it, so the game and DLC are on steam so this EXTRA DRM with limited installs is just redundant and is totally aimed at the customers. (Steam being a DRM that doesn't limit installs just access to it)

To top it off the game has no DRM, infact the retail DVD version DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER . So the game is secured by Steam, (a DRM that I'm fond of because it doesn't rob the customer) and not secured at all with a disc, but the DLC is secured with DRM, what the hell? I hope I get a response saying there's a retail version with no DRM that I can share with you all because it's massive BS to do this.
...

Isn't steam still limiting you from playing the games if you're off-line? even the single player ones? correct em if i'm wrong, i'm not a big user of steam, so maybe i got something wrong, but in case i'm not, isn't it a kick in the balls to be unable to play games on, say, your labtop if you're somewhere without acces to the internet. Not everyone has portable internet dungles.

I haven't really played much without online but I believe you have to "activate" offline mode with games and it'll work. But there's worse forms of DRM.

Actually, after a couple of days or so (assuming you turn your computer off every time you're done using it) in offline mode, Steam will prompt you to log back in again.

I bloody hate Steam. My internet connection here in this house was incredibly dodgy when I first moved in. I couldn't play any Steam games which removed a good half of my current games collection. Also, on the rare days that my internet actually worked, when I finally logged into Steam I'd end up downloading crappy updates for my games just so I could re-visit the single-player campaigns of the games I hadn't played in so long. Not to mention the fact that when I tried playing certain games, even when logged into Steam, it would sometimes hit me with an error message stating something to the effect of, "You are unable to play this game at this time. Please try again later.". Yeah, get stuffed.

Thankfully my internet connection is significantly better now but I honestly don't see why I should be forced to download myriad patches every now and then for games I never play multiplayer in anymore.

Also, the fact that certain games require Steam activation mean that there are some stupid game store employees out there who will allow people to return Steam games after activating them. A relative of mine bought Left 4 Dead from EB Games but it was a used copy, which meant it had already been activated. Why that game store apparently allows returns of Steam activated games is beyond me. No game store employee should be that stupid.

I bought FEAR 2: Project Origin. It turned out to be a used copy, i.e. it was already activated on Steam by its previous owner. So I went and cracked it. It turned out to be a mediocre game at best, so it was a waste of my money. Crappy games should not have DRM, let alone good games.

 

[Starke]

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management - which sounds innocuous until you realize that the 'rights' part is shorthand for "right to screw over your paying customers". With DRM, consumers have no rights at all.

If the companies that pushed crap legislation like the DMCA through congress had their way, if you wanted to listen to a song on a portable mp3 player, your computer, and in your car's CD player, you would have to pay for it 3 times (one for each device you want to use it with!). That is the entire point of DRM - it's a sneaky, underhanded, and absolutely loathsome way to legally rip people off by making them buy the same content over and over. Piracy is just a straw man used to justify DRM, because it sounds much better to say you're combating piracy instead of "devising ways to make you pay for things you've already purchased again".

Don't even get me started on publishers who bundle additional DRM on top of games on Steam (never mind that the retail copy only had a simple disc check, so looking at you Arkham Asylum).

Honestly, the DMCA kinda doesn't do much of anything. It outlaws modchips, and it outlaws cracking DRMs... EXCEPT: It permits you to crack a DRM to improve system interoperability, which can mean just about anything, and that includes mod chips. So, those kids with the flash cards in the DS playing NES roms? They're actually protected by the DMCA. Who knew?

 

[Starke]

DRM explaned.

When companies get butthurt by pirates they decide that they'll punish all their non-pirate costumers to vent their rage, and maybe get the costumers to hate pirates.

I can't imagine that they're really stupid enogh to think, that the game won't be pirated anyways, and in some way, they're just making it that much more tempting to pirate it, since you'll actually get a "better" game, due to the fact that the pirated version doens't have DRM.

Companies using DRM is like fucktards who beats their children caus etheir boss was after them earlier at work that day.

Gamers should make a statement, and NEVER buy shit with crappy DRM.

I know you can fake online with hamachi and shit like that, but I would still think, that the online part of most games, is enough to make people buy the game instead of pirating it.

Hold on good sir/sirs who may be reading this, here's the biggest kick of logic yet for this little discussion.

Steam is a DRM client already it limits who can use the copy namely you use it, so the game and DLC are on steam so this EXTRA DRM with limited installs is just redundant and is totally aimed at the customers. (Steam being a DRM that doesn't limit installs just access to it)

To top it off the game has no DRM, infact the retail DVD version DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER . So the game is secured by Steam, (a DRM that I'm fond of because it doesn't rob the customer) and not secured at all with a disc, but the DLC is secured with DRM, what the hell? I hope I get a response saying there's a retail version with no DRM that I can share with you all because it's massive BS to do this.
...

Isn't steam still limiting you from playing the games if you're off-line? even the single player ones? correct em if i'm wrong, i'm not a big user of steam, so maybe i got something wrong, but in case i'm not, isn't it a kick in the balls to be unable to play games on, say, your labtop if you're somewhere without acces to the internet. Not everyone has portable internet dungles.

I haven't really played much without online but I believe you have to "activate" offline mode with games and it'll work. But there's worse forms of DRM.

Actually, after a couple of days or so (assuming you turn your computer off every time you're done using it) in offline mode, Steam will prompt you to log back in again.

I bloody hate Steam. My internet connection here in this house was incredibly dodgy when I first moved in. I couldn't play any Steam games which removed a good half of my current games collection. Also, on the rare days that my internet actually worked, when I finally logged into Steam I'd end up downloading crappy updates for my games just so I could re-visit the single-player campaigns of the games I hadn't played in so long. Not to mention the fact that when I tried playing certain games, even when logged into Steam, it would sometimes hit me with an error message stating something to the effect of, "You are unable to play this game at this time. Please try again later.". Yeah, get stuffed.

Thankfully my internet connection is significantly better now but I honestly don't see why I should be forced to download myriad patches every now and then for games I never play multiplayer in anymore.

Also, the fact that certain games require Steam activation mean that there are some stupid game store employees out there who will allow people to return Steam games after activating them. A relative of mine bought Left 4 Dead from EB Games but it was a used copy, which meant it had already been activated. Why that game store apparently allows returns of Steam activated games is beyond me. No game store employee should be that stupid.

I bought FEAR 2: Project Origin. It turned out to be a used copy, i.e. it was already activated on Steam by its previous owner. So I went and cracked it. It turned out to be a mediocre game at best, so it was a waste of my money. Crappy games should not have DRM, let alone good games.

The scarry thought is the potential that the person selling the game was ALSO that stupid. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw a used PC title for sale anywhere.

 

[Katana314]

YEAAAAH! All DRM everywhere is EVIL!
(uninstalls Steam)

 

[Rax]

my stuff

Snots Reply

DRMs are bullshit. It would be like buying a dvd and getting limited views cause you may be able to show your friends when they come over. Who thinks its a good idea to punish the consumer needs to rethink their ideas of business. I too am not buying it, have yet to write them.