dropping the bomb on japan? yes or no?

[JeanLuc761]

There is always another way.

The Allies gave their terms to the Japanese. The Japanese refused to surrender. The Emperor himself had to intervene and order the surrender. The night before the surrender was announced, there was an attempted coup by the Ministry of War to stop the surrender.

What more proof do you need? They weren't going to stop. It's a war. People die in a war.

yes people die in war. but wj=hat if there wasn't a war. no one would die.

I am not a son of your country. I come from a country where killing people is seen as a bad thing.

Man, you talk about being naive...

As for your last little comment, stop being an ass. Do you honestly think if there was any clear way to end the war without bloodshed, they wouldn't have taken it. People die, the world is ugly sometimes. That's not cynicism, that is cold, brutal FACT.

 

[the clockmaker]

I don't think there's a single person on this planet that doesn't wish that could have happened. The point is, the war needed to end IMMEDIATELY. A ground invasion would have dragged on for years and would have resulted in the deaths of millions.

look above. there were other options, it's just that america was too stupid to find them.

Forgive me if this comes across as petty, but if America is so stupid, then why don't you give me a perfect solution?

If you were in charge, and you were told that "Unless you can come up with something, we have two options. One, engage in a land invasion with Japan. The mortality rate will be around a million for our side, even higher for Japan. Given our experience with their soldiers, we believe, with good reason, that they simply will not surrender and will fight until the last man/woman/child falls.

The second option is to use the recently developed nuclear weapons. While the civilian casualties will be high, likely in the hundreds of thousands, it has a much higher chance of success for stopping the war TODAY."


What would you do?

A demonstration of power. I would have A bomb dropped 10-20 kms off the coast of osaka as a live warning. They did not know the extent of the power that america wielded. No person did. And from hindsight, I doubt many if any country would have nuclear weapons if they did not know of the damage they are capable of.[/quote]

You realise that they had two bombs right, and that the war had to be ended before the USSR entered the nuclear club and that Japan didn't surrender until it was actually brought home what these could do. There is a differance between showing your enemy that you have a big stick and actually forcing tehm to experiance what would happen should they not aquiese. Again, it might have worked, there's maybe a one in ten chance, but the use in anger had a higher chance of succeeding with less long term consequences.

 

[viranimus]

Ehh.. its a moot point. Japan has repaid us in kind 100 fold by raising a generation of US children by force feeding their culture hand over fist with anime.

 

[estoria-etnia]

What, then, would you have us do?

Anything else. I refuse to believe that killing people was the only option.

And this is a twenty-first century opinion coming from one who has never lived in a country that is in a state of war. Not the war we have today, but a full-blown world war in which any day there comes the risk of being bombed. You cannot understand the mentality of the people nor do you wish to come to know perhaps why they acted the way that they did and why they chose the options that they did.

Simply put, you don't understand and you refuse to enlighten or educate yourself on the subject. Hence, you really are an idiot.

For the record, pacifist ideals like yours are what started this entire war in the first place. There could have been time to avert the war, but people were unwilling to support another armed conflict, remembering what had become known as the Great War at the time, and politicians reacted thusly. By the time it came down to defeating Japan, no one was willing to take any chances.

There is always another way.

What, then, would you have us do?

Anything else. I refuse to believe that killing people was the only option.

The Allies gave their terms to the Japanese. The Japanese refused to surrender. The Emperor himself had to intervene and order the surrender. The night before the surrender was announced, there was an attempted coup by the Ministry of War to stop the surrender.

What more proof do you need? They weren't going to stop. It's a war. People die in a war.

yes people die in war. but wj=hat if there wasn't a war. no one would die.

ONLY!? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER WAY! The japanese offered their surrender as long as they were allowed to keep the emperor.

To my recollection, they offered their surrender on the basis that they could keep the emperor and that they would not be occupied. Imagine if Germany tried to do the same, they surrender, but Hitler stays in power and no allied soldiers are to be based in their counrty, because I vaguely remember something similar happening before...

a nuclear strike could be arranged quickly and quietly if they stirred up some trouble. the nukes were like kicking someone in the balls, and is they are crying in the dirt, bringing a sledgehammer down on their head.

How long do you think you can keep something like this quiet? How long do you think it would be before the still extant empire of Japan starts their own nulear program? How many allied soldiers would have had to die in the second pacific war of 1965-1972? How would you justify your decision to settle for anything other than total surrender when the sons of those who gave so much have to take up arms again. And when, in the alternate two thousand ten of the world in which the bombs weren't dropped, what do you think people will say, when instead of two bombs being dropped, ten are, or twenty are, not just in Japan, but on Darwin, on Guam or on San fransico.
Perhaps none of this would have come to pass, perhaps Japan would have become peaceful. But look through Truman's eyes and ask yourself, do you turn your back on a wounded enemy just because there is a slight chance that he might not attack you?

I am not a son of your country. I come from a country where killing people is seen as a bad thing.

I'm currently face-palming at your idiocy. Did you even READ what I wrote?

 

[BakaSmurf]

The Americans chose the lesser of two evils, had they not nuked the Japanese, far more deaths would have occured on both sides during the inevitable invasions then the bombing would have ever caused.

 

[StarCecil]

There is always another way.

The Allies gave their terms to the Japanese. The Japanese refused to surrender. The Emperor himself had to intervene and order the surrender. The night before the surrender was announced, there was an attempted coup by the Ministry of War to stop the surrender.

What more proof do you need? They weren't going to stop. It's a war. People die in a war.

yes people die in war. but wj=hat if there wasn't a war. no one would die.

I am not a son of your country. I come from a country where killing people is seen as a bad thing.

The whole war started because people weren't willing to fight!

 

[JeanLuc761]

It does not matter. Human life is the most important thing on the planet. It doesn't matter how but the bombings were unjustifiable. Anyone that doesn't agree is almost assuredly american.

Oh man, the things I want to say...

I honestly haven't seen this kind of idiocy in a long time, nor have I seen such BLATANT hate for Americans. The very idea that ANYONE could think Americans love mass-murdering people is completely and utterly disgusting.

 

[StarCecil]

And when we've used up half of our stockpile and the Japanese don't care? There were holdouts that refused to believe the war had ended for thirty years after the fact, do you think that a demonstration bombing would do anything to faze them? You think they wouldn't just bunker down and prepare for the worst?

And if they didn't surrender, would you then drop the last bomb?

Hell, the only reason they surrendered in the first place was because they believed we had a limitless stockpile.

It does not matter. Human life is the most important thing on the planet. It doesn't matter how but the bombings were unjustifiable. Anyone that doesn't agree is almost assuredly american.

I'm going to repeat my point that the general point of view people hold about the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is wrong. The bombs are not what caused the Japanese surrender. They contributed to it, but they achieved little more than the ddeath of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

OT: While I am against attacking civilians, i think the bombing was justified. Based on Japanese civilian reaction to American soldiers, I dont think it is too outlandish to think that most of them would sacrifice themselves to try and stop the Americans. There probably would have been bloody fights for every town, every street corner, eventually leading to much greater casualties than the two bombs combined.

I'm going to call bullshit on this in particular. Since there was a grand total of zero American fatalities during the occupation of Japan. The people were broken, they were tired of war and tired of having their cities razed and their children gunned down by fighters. Lets be honest here, say the US was invaded tomorrow and the government surrendered, would you suddenly just stop being angry at the invaders and no-one would fight back. How about when the occupying troops start cording off entire city blocks and raping all the women, beating anyone who tries to resist and sending them to jail without trial. Now do the same thing in a hospital, and do that every week for a year. I'm surprised the Japanese don't hate the Americans after that alone.

Oh and if you read Imperial Japanese documents and communiques leading up to the surrender, none of them are about the atomic blasts, since they were much more worried about the fact that the Soviets had just declared war, opening up a second front. Combine that with the fact that their elite units in Manchuria had just been destroyed in short order by advancing Red army units and suddenly the Atomic bombs seem less war ending.

Thank you my good sir.[/quote]

As I pointed out above, it took the Emperor himself to order a surrender because his subordinates would not. They tried to kill the Emperor to prevent it. There were holdouts for Thirty Years.

They were not going to stop. The A-Bombs were a major contributing factor.

 

[StarCecil]

It does not matter. Human life is the most important thing on the planet. It doesn't matter how but the bombings were unjustifiable. Anyone that doesn't agree is almost assuredly american.

Oh man, the things I want to say...

I honestly haven't seen this kind of idiocy in a long time, nor have I seen such BLATANT hate for Americans. The very idea that ANYONE could think Americans love mass-murdering people is completely and utterly disgusting.

I have met enough that said to me that I was stupid for saying the invasion of Iraq was retarded with the reasoning "their religion is wrong, their skin is wrong, and they destroyed the world trade center. all muslims should die." and my point was that americans try to justify this. no other country does. they all condemn it and for a reason.

Wow, I've got no problem with Arabs or Muslims so...

 

[JeanLuc761]

I have met enough that said to me that I was stupid for saying the invasion of Iraq was retarded with the reasoning "their religion is wrong, their skin is wrong, and they destroyed the world trade center. all muslims should die." and my point was that americans try to justify this. no other country does. they all condemn it and for a reason.

I don't think I've ever met a single human being who said that all Muslims should die. I haven't met a racist person either. That's not to say that they don't exist, but to generalize an entire country like that is a major problem on your part.

 

[Commissar Sae]

And when we've used up half of our stockpile and the Japanese don't care? There were holdouts that refused to believe the war had ended for thirty years after the fact, do you think that a demonstration bombing would do anything to faze them? You think they wouldn't just bunker down and prepare for the worst?

And if they didn't surrender, would you then drop the last bomb?

Hell, the only reason they surrendered in the first place was because they believed we had a limitless stockpile.

It does not matter. Human life is the most important thing on the planet. It doesn't matter how but the bombings were unjustifiable. Anyone that doesn't agree is almost assuredly american.

I'm going to repeat my point that the general point of view people hold about the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is wrong. The bombs are not what caused the Japanese surrender. They contributed to it, but they achieved little more than the ddeath of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

OT: While I am against attacking civilians, i think the bombing was justified. Based on Japanese civilian reaction to American soldiers, I dont think it is too outlandish to think that most of them would sacrifice themselves to try and stop the Americans. There probably would have been bloody fights for every town, every street corner, eventually leading to much greater casualties than the two bombs combined.

I'm going to call bullshit on this in particular. Since there was a grand total of zero American fatalities during the occupation of Japan. The people were broken, they were tired of war and tired of having their cities razed and their children gunned down by fighters. Lets be honest here, say the US was invaded tomorrow and the government surrendered, would you suddenly just stop being angry at the invaders and no-one would fight back. How about when the occupying troops start cording off entire city blocks and raping all the women, beating anyone who tries to resist and sending them to jail without trial. Now do the same thing in a hospital, and do that every week for a year. I'm surprised the Japanese don't hate the Americans after that alone.

Oh and if you read Imperial Japanese documents and communiques leading up to the surrender, none of them are about the atomic blasts, since they were much more worried about the fact that the Soviets had just declared war, opening up a second front. Combine that with the fact that their elite units in Manchuria had just been destroyed in short order by advancing Red army units and suddenly the Atomic bombs seem less war ending.

Thank you my good sir.

As I pointed out above, it took the Emperor himself to order a surrender because his subordinates would not. They tried to kill the Emperor to prevent it. There were holdouts for Thirty Years.

They were not going to stop. The A-Bombs were a major contributing factor.[/quote]

I'm going to counter with the fact that the Japanese had already offered a conditional surrender a few weeks before hand. Their one condition was that the Emperor be left alone and not tried by a military tribunal (something that happened anyway). The US refused because of politics, the government needed absolute surrender to have a hope at reelection. Likewise the Atomic bombs needed to be used to justify the millions of tax dollars spent in their devellopment.

And of course there were hold outs and people who didn't want to surrender. They were people, individuals who have different points of view. Hell, 1/4 Americans still think Obama is a muslim, something that is false. Plenty of Germans opposed the Nazis, and there were plenty of Japanese who opposed the war before it even started. Likewise you're going to have the radicals who would have fought to the death. The vast majority of people would have been quite happy to stay out of the war entirely.

 

[D64nz]

Ok thing is Japan didn't want to give up because they thought they would loose their emperor in the process, as the US demanded nothing but a full and complete surrender. They'd give up any and everything they had taken during the war. Also, at the same time they had started negoations with the Russians to surrender to them and the US knew this and dropped the bombs to make sure that never happened. Japan at the time felt the Russians were more in line with their way of thinking. But alas, the US dropped the bombs, and the Japanese had to surrender to the US as they were told the next city would be Tokyo, a much more largely populated city than the first too.


As for the deaths, more russians died in Leningrad than the combined Allied casualties for the entire war.

As a side note, it is interesting that all of the orginal major campains in ww2 were aimed at oilfields. Germany wanted west russia for the oil reserves in the Ukraine, the south afrika campain was also going for the same goal for the middle eastern oilfields. The japanese invaded south east asia with the goal of reaching the oil fields in the philipines.

 

[JeanLuc761]

Idiocy because I dont believe in death? america did not understand japan and took the action they thought was nessacary.

As ugly as it is, people (sometimes) HAVE to die. There is absolutely no chance to avoid that and acting like that all situations can be resolved peacefully is hopelessly naive.