dropping the bomb on japan? yes or no?
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Yeah I agree with Goat. Unless they're was some pretty insane courtmartials I didn't hear about they don't really compare. Unit 731 is closer to say Aushwitz in terms of brutal, pointless death in the name of science and racial predjudice.Swollen Goat said:
Everyone executed deserters in WWII. Hell the Soviets killed about 158,000 for retreating away from the German meat grinder.
Actually your last point is pretty good. Nuclear deterrence is what stopped the Cold War from turning hot. Without the admitedly brutal examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki I shudder to think what might have happened.Azulito said:
i'll tell you this, i've been to hiroshima, i've seen the pictures, the remaining rubble, the preserved and bloody rags of the incinerated children, and saddest of all, the poor children and grandchildren who were stricken with some malady or the other because of the radiation. If you go there, it will alter your perception of whether or not it was "right" and possibly change your mind about the situation.
It did not change my, though truly it was the saddest thing i've ever had the education of experiencing, i still say that in the end, it spared more lives then it destroyed. The cost on both sides was estimated to be well into the millions. They were training their women and children to fight for christ's sake! There was to be no surrender, only death. It would've been genocide to pursue a course of invasion.
The one thing that i did change my mind about in hiroshima, is that nuclear weapons are not a "necessary evil", they're simply unecessary. They bring about destruction on a massive scale and leave effects that will be felt for generations, and truth be told, aren't we good enough at that without them?
It did not change my, though truly it was the saddest thing i've ever had the education of experiencing, i still say that in the end, it spared more lives then it destroyed. The cost on both sides was estimated to be well into the millions. They were training their women and children to fight for christ's sake! There was to be no surrender, only death. It would've been genocide to pursue a course of invasion.
The one thing that i did change my mind about in hiroshima, is that nuclear weapons are not a "necessary evil", they're simply unecessary. They bring about destruction on a massive scale and leave effects that will be felt for generations, and truth be told, aren't we good enough at that without them?
You know what pisses me off about this whole thing, Japan, as a gestalt, had less guilt about the whole affair than any other country. I mean, in the US, there's massive amounts of guilt about the atomic bombs, in britain people are guilty about dresden, in germany there is a sort of instituitional guilt about, well everything and in Australia we flat out make stuff up to be guilty about. But in Japan, there is a sense that the only thing that they're sorry about is taht they didn't win. HEavy mediccombo, you comlain because you don't have access to Japanese schoolbooks, but they treat the whole affair as american agression and I have heard serious claims that the only reason China doesn't like them is because the US has bases there.
Everyone did bad things. But when you compare the rates of this it becomes clear that the western allies still hold the moral high ground, its just not of everst proportions. Between January and March 1945, the red army is estimated to have raped 140,000 german women. Over the course of the war, the japanese kept 200,000-400,000 sex slaves.But of course, it is the west that must publicly flagelate itself.
And you have yet to respond to my earlier points, Heavymediccombo, instead sidetracking into the shocking notion that the US isn't perfect.
Also, people, if you don't know about something, the google searchbar should be at the top right hand corner of your screen, it wont make you an expet, but you can at least look up the meaning of say, unit 731 before making baffling comparisons.
Everyone did bad things. But when you compare the rates of this it becomes clear that the western allies still hold the moral high ground, its just not of everst proportions. Between January and March 1945, the red army is estimated to have raped 140,000 german women. Over the course of the war, the japanese kept 200,000-400,000 sex slaves.But of course, it is the west that must publicly flagelate itself.
And you have yet to respond to my earlier points, Heavymediccombo, instead sidetracking into the shocking notion that the US isn't perfect.
Also, people, if you don't know about something, the google searchbar should be at the top right hand corner of your screen, it wont make you an expet, but you can at least look up the meaning of say, unit 731 before making baffling comparisons.
It was a truly awful thing, and hope it never happens again. However, if we hadn't, about twice as many people would've been killed in the following battles/attacks. Also, if they came up with one first, we would've been screwed.
Oh, well in that case yes, true enough. just the way you quoted his text made it look like a direct reply about Unit 731. Briefly, they were a medical team that tested biological agents on human subjects (usually Chinese civilians or POWs) and performed vivisections to harvest diseased organs from the dying victims. They're pretty much the definition of war crime.heavymedicombo said:
This is a really well covered topic. Anything I say now would just be a drop in the bucket. Since the bucket is pretty well full, I'll be brief. 
It's hard to speculate what the turn of events would have been if the two bombs hadn't been utilized. The effects of these bombs has been felt even so long after the war. The lessons of nuclear warfare stem from that very instance in history. It's what lead to the cold war, and why the underground nuclear testing in N. Korea is so terrifying.
In the next Total War instance, it's going to be who pushes the Button first. A nuclear first strike to insure that your country comes out on top, destabilizing the other with the destructive power of the nuke. The economic hit that follows would be enough to shatter the surviving nation, even if they didn't immediately surrender. (Does this sound a little like the plot of MGS1? Yeah, cause it's a very real threat, and it really hasn't been any greater. The Cold War isn't over, it's just new players.)
I've strayed a little, but said what I wanted to. Was America right? It was a Total War scenario, and America also had Germany on their minds. The bomb was a sound tactical choice, and it sure won the day. So many deaths though. It'd have been similar though, with an invasion. Even with America using conventional bombs to raid cities, AA cannons could still fight back, and it was well known war tactics the the-militaristic Japan was well prepared to deal with. The bomb was Americas ace.
I used to work for a japanese cafe years back. The place was bought out by a white guy, and he made a few observations about japanese culture that have stuck with me (meaning I don't necessarily agree, but I admit they have merit). Japanese shows, cartoons, media in general, he observed, have an obsession with massive devastation on the scale of nuclear bombs. Watch anime (Akira in the intro was always my example), and watch for the devastating bombs influence. This guy would argue that it's there.
It's hard to speculate what the turn of events would have been if the two bombs hadn't been utilized. The effects of these bombs has been felt even so long after the war. The lessons of nuclear warfare stem from that very instance in history. It's what lead to the cold war, and why the underground nuclear testing in N. Korea is so terrifying.
In the next Total War instance, it's going to be who pushes the Button first. A nuclear first strike to insure that your country comes out on top, destabilizing the other with the destructive power of the nuke. The economic hit that follows would be enough to shatter the surviving nation, even if they didn't immediately surrender. (Does this sound a little like the plot of MGS1? Yeah, cause it's a very real threat, and it really hasn't been any greater. The Cold War isn't over, it's just new players.)
I've strayed a little, but said what I wanted to. Was America right? It was a Total War scenario, and America also had Germany on their minds. The bomb was a sound tactical choice, and it sure won the day. So many deaths though. It'd have been similar though, with an invasion. Even with America using conventional bombs to raid cities, AA cannons could still fight back, and it was well known war tactics the the-militaristic Japan was well prepared to deal with. The bomb was Americas ace.
I used to work for a japanese cafe years back. The place was bought out by a white guy, and he made a few observations about japanese culture that have stuck with me (meaning I don't necessarily agree, but I admit they have merit). Japanese shows, cartoons, media in general, he observed, have an obsession with massive devastation on the scale of nuclear bombs. Watch anime (Akira in the intro was always my example), and watch for the devastating bombs influence. This guy would argue that it's there.
-ever hear of unit 731?heavymedicombo said:
-ever hear about what happened to deserters in the US army,
I'm sorry mate, Im not trying to be funny here, but what else could you have meant there, I ask because it is important to fully understand someone elses point of view before attempting to debate them, so really, when you refuted the example of unit 731 with the execution of deserters, what did you mean?