dropping the bomb on japan? yes or no?

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Bruin

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NuclearPenguin said:
Bruin said:
Hosker said:
I don't believe the killing of innocent people is ever justifiable.
Tell that to a bunch of generals.

Or the Romans.

Or the Brits.

Or any country that's survived to the modern day.

They'll just laugh in your face.
Faulty logic is faulty.
Shitty retort is shitty.

The Vikings didn't raid to be jackasses, they raided to live.

Were the people they attacked innocent? Yes.

But did the Vikings need to eat? Yes.

It would be nice if the world was so abundant, that we could all have enough to go around and nobody had to fight. But that's not the case.

And if survival is faulty logic, I'd rather be faulty than right.

Again, if you think the human species got as far as it did out of being kind and generous to everybody I think your perception of our race as a whole is naive. Call people innocent, if you'd like, but in the end it comes down to survival. If killing another man means you get to live, I can't see how any law of nature would make it wrong.
 

JeanLuc761

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Clockwork Scarecrow. said:
Yes, of course, at least it gives the innocents caught in the middle a chance to be evacuated.
What explanation can you give for killing an entire city's worth of people in an instant, not to mention the long-term effects?
It's a question of relativity, really. I don't condone killing innocent civilians, ever, though I believe soldiers have an equal right to live. That in mind, Japan was warned about the weapon's destructive potential and it STILL took two detonations for them to realize that it was time to surrender completely.

As for the efficiency of the nuclear weapon, the very demonstration of its power is what was necessary for Japan to surrender. Yes, the death of 200,000 citizens is a horrible, HORRIBLE thing; there is no denying that. When presented with the more costly alternative however, it's a lesser of two evils. It's one of many impossible decisions that world leaders are tasked with answering.
 

CitySquirrel

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Neferius said:
Yeah, but then you would have had to use the Car in order to break into his House ...and just try explaining those blood-splatters on your bumper to the Insurance Guy.

PS: Insurance Guy = U.N.
The U.N. that didn't exist until about two months later, you mean?

Anyway, using your own analogy the car is the US army and the rocks are the bombs. The car is irrelevant to the bombs... all I'm saying is that, based on US estimates of dead (and the US has an interest in estimating it low, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and not using the higher estimates by other groups... both Japanese and non) we killed over 90,000 civilians, which was less like breaking his windows and more like murdering his family.

The analogy you used is flawed in that the things you choose for analogies are...well...analogies. It is easy to make what we did seem reasonable when you choose the somewhat humdrum figure of "windows" to symbolize two cities filled with civilians, but this is somewhat deceptive because we didn't just smash a few windows with rocks. The entire comparison is irrelevant.
 

LadyRhian

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Megalodon said:
CitySquirrel said:
You sound like you have already made up your mind. However, I will suggest a hypothetical: iimagine a scenario where we contacted the Japanese government and told them "please observe this small uninhabited island over here." Then, BOOM. "Now, you have 24 hours to surrender or that will happen to several undisclosed locations within your country."
Had this argument with a mate a few weeks ago. Comes down to the combination that there was no guarantee it would work, and America didn't have the bombs to spare at the time. It still took two cities being leveled to convince them to surrender, I don't really think a "warning shot" would have been anything other than a "wasted" bomb.
To be honest, the point was that a human invasion of the islands of Japan would have simply cost too many lives- on both sides. That's why America went with the bomb. We dropped Little Boy (the first bomb) and said we had more. Japan and Emperor Hirohito refused to surrender. Then we dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki. We (America) said we had a third bomb and if we were forced to use it, it would be dropped on Tokyo. That's when Japan surrendered. However, we lied about having a third bomb to drop. At the time we didn't have one, but we would have had one shortly (within about 9-10 days).
 

Tsalmaveth

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Apr 27, 2009
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by your argument, you can't know how dangerous a gun is until you shoot someone with it, or the fact that a back hoe could kill you without getting into an accident.

even if you don't know the power of a nuke, setting one off let's you know. like the Tsar for example(in addition to being able to calculate the power). Modern nukes are pretty terrifying. Americans have nukes with multiple warheads, each warhead is orders of magnitude more powerful. each warhead is probably powerful enough to wipe off the map entirely.

was it worth it? well, Operation downfall was going to be truly terrifying. literally millions of casualties on both sides were estimated, so ending the war sooner was better in terms of total life lost, but the losses were entirely civilian. mind you, you could also argue that dropping the bomb prevented us from using nuclear energy for every day use, as it now terrifies people. well... nuclear power is pretty good actually! would solve our energy crisis. not the environmental issues, we would just have different ones.

but I think the clearest benefit of the development of nuclear weapons is the lack of conflict between major powers. a conventional war between america and russia would have been brutal, and nuclear weapons prevented that. but I don't think that's the same thing as 'hiroshima and nagasaki'.

to summarize accurately: the bomb was not worth it, because of the unneccssary loss of civilian lives, but it cannot be accurately stated, because operation downfall (the final invasion of japan) would have cost millions of lives. it's impossible to know what would happen from there. it is entirely possible that they could have dropped the bomb on some forest, or Mt Fuji, and that may have equally ended the war.
 
Aug 2, 2008
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I swear if someone ever wants to create a popular thread they just mention this debate.

Anyways I'm not going to get too in depth with this because I've done it a few times before. I've done my research and made a valid conclusion. I know for sure that the atomic bombs were necessary.

I know we're all sick and tired of WWII games, but wouldn't Operation Downfall make a decent "what if" game? I mean do it in a 'horror of war' style. Having to shoot civvies that are trying to kill you with primitive weapons. Raid a Unit 731 lab. Stuff like that.
 

standokan

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May 28, 2009
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Trowing the bombs probably was the best choice, its choosing between scylla and charybdis.
 

Staskala

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DannibalG36 said:
It's a question of relativity, really. I don't condone killing innocent civilians, ever, though I believe soldiers have an equal right to live. That in mind, Japan was warned about the weapon's destructive potential and it STILL took two detonations for them to realize that it was time to surrender completely.

As for the efficiency of the nuclear weapon, the very demonstration of its power is what was necessary for Japan to surrender. Yes, the death of 200,000 citizens is a horrible, HORRIBLE thing; there is no denying that. When presented with the more costly alternative however, it's a lesser of two evils. It's one of many impossible decisions that world leaders are tasked with answering.
It's a hard case to argue that a continuing monarchist Japan would have been the bigger evil. The war would have ended without any further bloodshed if the allies had accepted Japan's conditional surrender.
I do not think that killing any number of civilians justifies such a minor detail. If you so desperately want to make your point you have no right to complain about the hard way of invading Japan.

Either do it without bloodshed or fight for your opinion. Do not involve civilians to get your rather unneccessary unconditional surrender.

The nukes cannot be justified with the the events of the time. In retrospect you can argue that they were ultimately the "best" thing to do (as I believe), but these arguments have nothing to do with WWII itself.
 

Chris^^

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Mar 11, 2009
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it was the quickest way to get the job done.

Plus an invasion of the mainland could have resulted in far higher casualties, both military and civilian..
 

nash_clovis

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Clockwork Scarecrow. said:
Yes, of course, at least it gives the innocents caught in the middle a chance to be evacuated.
What explanation can you give for killing an entire city's worth of people in an instant, not to mention the long-term effects?
We were going to; that was the purpose of Operation Downfall, which would have launched invasions (which would have been the largest, most expensive, and deadliest in history) on Tokyo and Kyushu. And by the time we had started the invasion of Kyushu, we would have seven bombs that were likely to be used on the defending forces.

And the Japanese populace wouldn't have evacuated. They were whipped into a frenzy that they were likely to fight alongside the defense force.

Dropping two bombs to kill millions ended a war that would have claimed the lives of tens of millions.
 

Kije

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Oct 13, 2009
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I wish we could have tried dropping it just outside the city.
A warning shot like that leaving a giant crater for everyone to see after impact would have caused less deaths and sent a better message to Japan. Something still along the line of "Don't F*** With Us."
...I like mind games.
 

thejboy88

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Aug 29, 2010
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I have never beleived that it should have been dropped. This is strictly on the basis that most of the casualties were civilians. Innocent men, women and children, many of which were not even involved in the Japanese war effort. Had the targets been military bases or Japanese fleets in the Pacific I might have approved, but as this was a thought-out and purposefull attack on known civilian population zones, I must say that it was simply unacceptable. Besides, the Japanese were basically driven back to their homeland and beaten in the pacific anyway, so using that bomb on anyone at that point was just overkill.
 

Megalodon

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LadyRhian said:
Megalodon said:
CitySquirrel said:
You sound like you have already made up your mind. However, I will suggest a hypothetical: iimagine a scenario where we contacted the Japanese government and told them "please observe this small uninhabited island over here." Then, BOOM. "Now, you have 24 hours to surrender or that will happen to several undisclosed locations within your country."
Had this argument with a mate a few weeks ago. Comes down to the combination that there was no guarantee it would work, and America didn't have the bombs to spare at the time. It still took two cities being leveled to convince them to surrender, I don't really think a "warning shot" would have been anything other than a "wasted" bomb.
To be honest, the point was that a human invasion of the islands of Japan would have simply cost too many lives- on both sides. That's why America went with the bomb. We dropped Little Boy (the first bomb) and said we had more. Japan and Emperor Hirohito refused to surrender. Then we dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki. We (America) said we had a third bomb and if we were forced to use it, it would be dropped on Tokyo. That's when Japan surrendered. However, we lied about having a third bomb to drop. At the time we didn't have one, but we would have had one shortly (within about 9-10 days).
Not really sure why you quoted me here, the post you quoted was me following up a response to an earlier post where I basically made this point, see below.

Megalodon said:
Simply put, dropping the bomb ended the Japanese will to fight. This was worth it to avoid the projected death toll for a mainland invasion. It took something as drastic as the bomb to convince Japan. Remember, more people actually died in the conventional fire-bombing of Tokyo than in the nuclear attacks, but that didn't stop the war. So America was left with little alternative.
 

Woodsey

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There's no right or wrong answer, and this has been way too oversimplified.

I don't condone it, but knowing what would have happened otherwise I can't condemn it either.
 

historybuff

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Feb 15, 2009
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Yay, a chance for high school aged self-righteous kiddies who haven't read their history to rant and ***** about how "wrong" America was for ending World War Two.

This is such a troll topic.

Anybody who has read the topic in history knows that the Japanese did the same kind of horrific shit that the Nazis were doing. Its just that no one talks about them. The Japanese were prepared to sacrifice every last man, woman and child.

You know who whines most about "big, bad America dropping an atomic weapon on poor Japan"? Those Japan-obsessed gamers and anime fans who can't separated reality from their idealized illusions.

The reality is that the Japanese were going to screw around until someone stopped them. Americans, Australians and New Zealanders fought in the South Pacific and it was a horrific war. Taking the Japanese mainland would have killed thousands of more marines from US/AUS/NZ.

So yeah, in World War Two, the Japanese got what was coming to them. Read about the experiments they did on Chinese and Koreans in Unit 731 camps before you whine about how sad it was. Read about the Rape of Nanking. Read about what the Japanese did to Prisoners of War.


Is it different now? Obviously. America stayed, rebuilt the damn country and now Japan is our friend. So its different now.

But back then, yes, absolutely necessary. It saved thousands of lives.
 

Baldry

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CitySquirrel said:
You sound like you have already made up your mind. However, I will suggest a hypothetical: iimagine a scenario where we contacted the Japanese government and told them "please observe this small uninhabited island over here." Then, BOOM. "Now, you have 24 hours to surrender or that will happen to several undisclosed locations within your country."
That sounds like something a evil genius would do...

Anyways uhm I guess you could say it was for thee greater good? So then yes?