"dumbed down for the console gamer"

[T3chn0s1s]

(And now, another random poorly flowing word salad from T3chn0s1s)

Okay, I'm going to be honest. I got to the third page, skipped over to 7, and decided to drop my already stated but seemingly ignored two-cents worth without checking to see if someone actually has bothered to acknowledge a similar point even though it doesn't continue the argument.

Why is dumbing down a game suddenly a BAD thing?

When did this become about the players, anyway? I just went back to the OP to check and it seemed to be a question about whether or not it is about the players. I've still not seen a PC gamer who seemed even moderately coherent state that it's a player thing. That seems to be the console's side of the fence.

"U GUIZ M MAKE THINK US FOR AM FEWLZ! WE M NUT DUMBZ!!11!"

I don't recall anyone saying that console gamers are stupid, despite all of the console gamers protesting that they are not.

Yes, 'dumbing down for consoles' IS a developer choice, and it's no one's fault that it's a developer choice. It doesn't make the statement any less valid that it's dumbed down between the mediums, no matter which way it goes. However, people seem to be failing basic English here. (Inb4 'lol u englsh sux u use 2 man-e comaz n badz gramarz' lololol) 'Dumbing down for console' is actually a misleading statement anyway because as it was pointed out earlier in the thread most of the games that get 'dumbed down' are actually being transferred UP. They're not games that are developed for multiple platforms in the first place, as any time those would be called 'dumbed down' the game probably wasn't very good anyway. (few exceptions apply)

Everyone seems to get all offended when people suggest any 'dumbing down' occurred. I can't for the life of me figure why. No one is calling you stupid, it's not an insult. It's English. It's a simple retarding of the development to fit within set confines set forth by the company's execs. It has nothing to do with what platform it is, usually, it's just that it winds up working better on one or the other because of the type of game, or the design decisions made, and suddenly everyone's pointing fingers.

By the way, console gamers. Don't even sit there and act like you guys get the short end of the trash-talking stick. You get plenty of licks in against PC gamers all the time. Hell, a lot of them are right here in this thread. Likewise, PC gamers tear you guys a new one any time they get the chance. In the end it all boils down to human nature. Mine is bigger/better/badder/more/worse/less/superior/inferior/lobster/tastier/blander/duller/shinier/prettier/brighter/crappier/gorier/BEST! I got less sleep than you, you're a pussy! I got a better computer than you, suck on that! I got more ice-cream than you, ha ha sucker! I got less ice-cream than you, I want more! It's nature. I'm not asking you to STOP it, I'm just asking that you realize it.

The problems that most people refer to as 'dumbing down' aren't dumbing down at all, though. It's not a situation of, "Man, dawg. You got console in my Starcraft." Nor is it a case of "Dude, man. You got PC in my Halo!" No, the problem comes from this scenario:

'Reasonable Gamer Tim': "Man, thanks for letting me play your xbox. This game is so good but there isn't a PC version. I don't own this console, but I have an awesome PC. I am going to get all of my friends to demand a PC version, because it would be so cool to actually own this game so I could play it any time!"

Next Market Meeting

'Marketing Sally', AKA 'CEO Sally': "Man, a lot of our consumers seem to be looking the markets over for a copy of 'Popular Title IV' on the PC. Steam, Impulse, and Gamefly are offering to market it for us so we don't even have to worry about it. Can development piece us together something workable?"

'Development Bob': "Oh heck yeah. I think that would be a great idea! We can rework the control scheme and open up a more in-depth customization of the gameplay experience to compensate for updated hardware and get a few bugs out that we didn't catch in the console release. This can only be a good thing! Hey, while we're working on that, so that the rest of the dev team doesn't get bored, we can go ahead and get design to work on some new content to release alongside it to release bundled with the PC edition, and offer as dlc for our loyal console fans."

'Marketing Bill': "Cool, we'll announce it immediately. How does next month sound for a release date?"

'Development Bob': "Uhm... About five months too soon?"

'Marketing Steve': "Too late. Pre-orders already coming in through Steam."

'Development Bob': "Uh, okay. Well... Then if we pool some manpower from another department we can probably get most of it to a playable state for the PC."

'Marketing Anafgnat': "Actually, these PC guys are gamers, right? They obviously have a console already. Just cut out the control changes because they can totally just buy a gamepad, right? We'll market it as needing one, they won't mind."

'Development Bob': "Well... That's kind of a dick move, but okay. We'll just work on getting it running on a PC and getting all the bugs worked out before launch... That's at least six months of testing that you're going to need us to do in a month. Can we have some of the testers from 'Popular title V' to get it done faster?"

'Marketing Jerry': "Actually, you and Design Carl can take care of this by yourselves, right? We really have to get 'Popular Title IV: Spinoff Edition' out to coincide with this PC release of 'Popular Title IV', and your team being the original devs on 'Popular Title IV', we can think of no one better to speed up this release. Actually, can you guys take care of making 'Popular Title IV: Spinoff Edition' a PC native launch as well, while you're working on 'Popular title IV'? Thanks."

'Development Bob': "I... We... No?"

'CEO Sally': "Thanks Development Bob! You're a gem!"



Two months later...


'CEO Sally': [Enter stage left]"Hey uh... Bob... About those PC launches. Our fans are getting rabid. We need those launches or you're going to be supporting your family from a bread line."

'Development Bob': "I.. We.. We haven't changed anything. After digging through the archaic code that 'Programming Donald' never standardized we barely have it operating in a windows environment."

'CEO Sally': "But it runs."

'Development Bob': "Sometimes?"

'CEO Sally': "Great! I swear, sometimes I wonder what we pay you guys for. Jesus. Get it over to marketing so they can get some box-art on it and hopefully save your sorry ass. Any more screw-ups like this, though, and I'll have your key-card." [Exit Stage *****]

'Design Carl': "Man. I'm getting a job with 'Major Competitor' in a couple weeks to work on 'Next Big Thing VIII'. You're on your own."


[Scene]


The inverse holds true in many cases as well. Going to console, some games just don't get the loving attention they deserve. Developers just can't logistically clear it. Some companies, despite being big names, aren't 'big money' as far as expendable income. There are overheads. I made that situation out to be a bit comical and hyperbolic, but I'm not saying that big name developers are a bad thing. I'm just saying that they are businesses. Don't hate them for it either, just get informed. Find out what you're getting yourself into when you make purchases, and find out why that game you hate sucks before you go ranting about it, then take your complaints to the right places. I guarantee you the four or five blizzard employees who read this forum weren't swayed by our posts about the real-ID issue.

For some of these arguments in here, I'd suggest a change of tact for some. Assume everyone who reads you posts doesn't know what you're saying because they're not in your head at the time of writing, and try to be mindful of what you can realistically expect.

Another thing I'd like to say is this 'dumbing down' isn't even a bad thing like everyone seems to be on about. The phrase 'dumbing down' does not have some intrinsic negativity to it. In fact, it is quite often the only reason another platform can enjoy a game to its fullest. I'm not talking first person shoots being better on mouse and keyboard or consoles, and we're not going to get into the infinite debate of 'lol u kin onlee knoz hao 2 shute n cnusule cuz m haz ato-am u sily f4nb0yeeez!!! lolololol'. There's no room for discussing personal preferences in the 'dumbing down' thread boys and girls, because that's not 'dumbing down', that's 'being dumb'. There's a difference in making a game ENJOYABLE on another platform, and being a douchebag about whether southpaw or wasd 'pwnz m04r nubz' (or for that matter ,aoe vs wasd, you damn dvorak folk.)

I mean, If we're talking about blizzard porting diablo III to the consoles, I imagine there would be some 'dumbing down' for the consoles. (I'd, in fact, be rather upset if we didn't see A LOT of work put into dumbing it down since blizzard can afford to wipe their collective ass with freshly minted million dollar bills, and could thus afford to make a decent port) I'd also imagine that you console folk getting all offended by the use of the term would be VERY GRATEFUL that they dumbed it down, because you don't want to use an analog stick as a mouse, or even the atrocious sensing on the wii pointer. (I'd also imagine, it being Blizzard, in all their wisdom they'd give you the option to use a USB keyboard and mouse if they did a port, but that kind of negates the 'dumbing down is good' argument)





(DISCLAIMER: Yes, I am aware that people are going to be like 'ZOMG ZOMG ZOGM ZOGM ZOGM ZOMGZOGMZOGMZOGMZOGMZOGMZOGMZOGMZGOZMOGMZOGMZOGMZOGM U R DUM U DUNZ GET DAT M TALKZ BOUT WEN DEH SUCK A GAM CUZ M ON BOFE' but frankly, you're wrong. They're not dumbing down these games that you claim are getting worse, because of some magical boundary between what we like as human beings. That's not 'dumbing down' a game. I'm getting old enough now as a gamer that I see games coming out that make me go, "What is this garbage?" just like my parents did about my music in high school, and my choice of reading materials. Tastes change, and that has NOTHING TO DO with the platform it's on. If you haven't been seeing the PC titles that fall into the new-tastes or the console titles that fit into the old-tastes coming out CONSTANTLY, then you're not paying enough attention. This, however, is a rant for another word-salad.)

[Please keep all comments about how poorly constructed this post is to a minimal, as I'm well aware that it's going to be painful to read when I post it. That's a developer choice (read as: My Choice) as I don't have the resources (i.e. time) available to devote toward making this a more coherent commentary on the subject. Perhaps if the escapist were willing to sponsor an article on the topic, I'd be willing to make something readable for you to enjoy.]


. o O (EDIT BALLOON)

By the by, I am fully aware that my opinion on what 'dumbing down' means is exactly that, but it's based off of my most frequent exposure to the word in actual game journalism. I'm not taking everyone kid with a grudge into account here, just actual publications that talk about 'dumbing down' games for consoles. I am aware that there are many interpretations of the phrase, and I can indeed see the deep philosophical debate that would come up in just exploring that phrase's application to gaming as a whole by all parties present in the community. However, I was hoping to appeal to a sense of unification in the name of 'Dumbing Down : Something I Hope Never Stops, Because I Enjoy Console Gaming'...

Is that weird? Since I don't own any current-gen consoles personally, and do all my gaming on my enormous peni- er... gaming rig?

 

[00slash00]

im mainly a pc gamer and im not trying to sound elitist but i think some console games are made to be less complex and easier than many pc games. there seems to be more hand holding on consoles, especially in recent years. i think pc gamers are considered the more hardcore because you could spend $300 for a console plus games but a pc gamer requires a lot more technical knowledge and more importantly, a much higher financial dedication. im not saying a console gamer isnt a hardcore gamer but i think pc gamers have an image as being the more hardcore.

i honestly never thought console games were dumbed down until the witcher. i thought it was very straight forward and easy to figure out what to do and where to go. console gamers, however, seemed to be at a complete loss. i remember watching yahtzee's review and i couldnt figure out what about the game he thought was so confusing. another thing is that pc games have something console games dont, a quick save button. maybe pc games are generally less forgiving to balance out the fact that most console games essentially go by checkpoints while pc games allow you to save every 2 seconds if you want (and some even let you save during battles)

 

[William Dickbringer]

Its probably because you have ruined every awesome franchise, EX: look at Fallout 2 compared to 3. One was awesome, the other was a dumbed down buggy piece of trash. Just please play Halo Wars, and leave the rest of the RTS's alone.

hey don't be blaming us for "ruining" your favorite franchises just because a developer wants to make more money by being available to more people than just one specific area plus did you really have to go insult a guy just because he said in his opinion that he preferred fallout 3 to fallout 1&2 I felt that was uncalled for especially since you immediately wrote him off as a console elitist with no prior knowledge of whether or not he even owned a console

 

[DracoSuave]

I stopped reading this thread about the time someone actually said the problem with oblivion had to do with the interface being console-friendly.

Look, Oblivion has problems. The bugs. The levelling system. The use of voice acting being repetitive and sometimes jarring in conversations as characters switch accents. The fact the main quest is the least compelling part of the game.

The fact is, NONE of these things have nothing to do with console OR pc development. The game wasn't dumbed down. It was bugged.

If you think the control scheme was the majority of it's problems... you never played it.

 

[BenzSmoke]

It's not that it's dumbed down, it's more that it has to be simplified to suit the console's graphical power and controls.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The fact is, NONE of these things have nothing to do with console OR pc development. The game wasn't dumbed down. It was bugged.

I think it was dumbed down but only so the developers would have more time to masturbate about their procedurally generated trees.

 

[Spacewolf]

I play the Pc most often but i havent really noticed any dumbing down RTS dont seem to do to well on the consoles which is strange because i only use the mouse usually in them, but otherwise i carnt really see a different i mean there arn't any Pc games that i play that need all the buttons to play even when people go on about mouse control being better i carnt really see what there talking about as i can aim more precisly with an analog stick (yes even without aim assist before people start complaining)

Sweet jesus use a period.

OT: As people may or may not know, the system specs of consoles don't increase with time, therefore the graphics of console games will eventually stop getting better (at least until a new system is released). PCs do not have such restrictions on graphics, so one would assume that we will see an influx of high performance games rolling in. Now here's the problem; there is an ever growing market for console games. If developers wish to make more money, they must make games for consoles as well as PCs. Developers could very well make games with incredible graphics, but they won't be able to develop for the consoles.

So what do you do? You dumb down the game! Give it console graphics, which are sub-par by current PC standards. We haven't seen a PC game with cutting edge graphics since Crysis, and that was 3 years ago! (Except maybe Shattered Horizon, but that was a glorified benchmarking program)

I for one want a game that will make my graphics card sweat. A game that no console can play.

I dont have £300 to constantly update my graphics card every few months i would say my PS3 would be able to cope with more than my nVidia 8800GTX card and if your talking about DirectX models well all current consols have internet access so they can update in the same way as a PC.

With a console at least you know that a game relesed for it will be playable you dont have to worry about having to few Cores or to many or your sound, graphics etc card not being supported for the game.

As for games limiting the graphics Fallout 3 has pretty good graphics i would say and its not really that difficult to allow PC gamers to change their graphics you know like every game for the past however many years. If graphics are also your worried about thats not really dumbing down for consoles as its usually stated and i imagine most pure PC gamers would look down on that sort of attitude

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I dont have £300 to constantly update my graphics card every few months i would say my PS3 would be able to cope with more than my nVidia 8800GTX card and if your talking about DirectX models well all current consols have internet access so they can update in the same way as a PC.

Ummm... no and no.

The PS3's GPU is a customised nVidia 7000 series...

As for upgrading the DX version a GPU can handle... Can't be done. It's a limitation imposed by the hardware.

 

[Spacewolf]

I dont have £300 to constantly update my graphics card every few months i would say my PS3 would be able to cope with more than my nVidia 8800GTX card and if your talking about DirectX models well all current consols have internet access so they can update in the same way as a PC.

Ummm... no and no.

The PS3's GPU is a customised nVidia 7000 series...

As for upgrading the DX version a GPU can handle... Can't be done. It's a limitation imposed by the hardware.

hmm well i guess you learn something new everyday

 

[Baby Tea]

Find a console gamer who won't call me a fag, then you can make this thread.

Hey! How are you?
Seems your rhetorical question didn't really have a lot of ground.

Ahh, you must be a ninja because you ninja'd me.

HIYAH!
Wait...ninjas don't make noise.
So, I mean:

...

 

[fulano]

Morrowind vs Oblivion. Enough said.

Morrowind was a freaking fantastic game, ESPECIALLY with mods. But it didn't play so well on consoles. Oblivion was a dumbed down POS single-player MMO, played well on on consoles if you were brain dead; NEEDED mods to be worth playing in the least.

Are you talking about what, exactly? How complex the game was, or what? That had it been made for consoles the game would have a had a higher learning curve ergo making it better overall? Better AI, better combat, what?

Unless you elaborate the comparison in useless.

Yes. Morrowind was far more complex and had a lot more freedom than Oblivion. It was made for PC and then ported to the Xbox. The Xbox version was inevitably terrible because of the limited control scheme, and inferior graphics.

After Morrowind, Bethesda decided there was more money to be made in the console market. So they designed Oblivion around the console control scheme, and then ported it to PCs. The result was a severely dumbed down game. None of the complexity of Morrowind, half the freedom and open-world element. Less freedom of customization. Literally dumbed down for consoles.

Now this isn't to say that console gamers are dumber, just that a certain amount of dumbing down is necessary when designing a game around consoles as opposed to starting at the PC platform.

Excuse me but what you said makes zero sense. How exactly are you measuring customization, or freedom, for that matter? Is it so much bother that now every town is a closed cell? Maybe you wanted more spells? Crafting wasn't to your liking, perhaps? The world area wasn't large enough? The levelling system was stupid (I thought it was)?

You don't specify what "dumbing down" even means within your context, or its properties or under what ideology you make your statements. Your oppinion is thus rendered useless, sadly.

 

[shadyh8er]

Sounds like the equivalent of a PS3 fanboy saying a game got "dumbed down for the Xbox." Just an insecure trolling phrase best left ignored.

 

[Netrigan]

As for the Escapist forums, I haven't seen any raging prepubescent Halo fans yet - I can only assume they get drowned out by the loud, bullhorn-wielding Valve fans who do much the same thing, only with better grammar and a more extensive vocabulary.

I want to play Half-Life 2, if only so I can see what all the goddamn fuss is about, and plan to when I'm able. At that point, I will see how it compares to the Halo games (I'm expecting - from what I've heard - to go in, get terrified out of my wits and have to fight frantically to finish the game before I lose control of my bladder).

Wow that was a massively, hugely offtopic post. Eh, whatever.

I'm a HL2 fan, but it's not particularly scary. Granted, anytime you're in a darkened room you can bet a headcrab will come jumping out at you, but that's more startling than scary. The only really creepy section of the game is Ravenholm which is a bit annoying since its favorite tactic is to have you jump (or follow a narrow beam) to an isolated rooftop... then have five or six zombie dogs things attack you. Said zombie dogs being able to take two or three shotgun blasts each and have the ability to climb up walls, making it a sort of King Of Hill stand-off.

What I like about the game is that it breaks up the action really well. It starts off as a standard shooter, then you have the boat levels (alternating between being chased by choppers and getting off to open up new areas), some more foot action then it's the car levels, then you have some squad-based stuff (which is really the weak point of the game), then the finale is the Super Gravity Gun which is just ten kinds of awesome.

But I'm not sure the game has aged terribly well. such as, Gordan Freeman seems to be a low-level telekinetic, since he has the ability to make small objects hover in front of him instead of using his hands... this because they didn't have the ability to realistically model him holding onto all the items he could carry around. Which brings us to Physics Puzzles. Valve was so jazzed that they had realistic physics in their game that they set up all sorts of puzzles using see-saws and pulleys. First couple of times, it's cute; but the 18th time you have to find some cinder blocks to put on the far side of a see-saw so you can get up to a ledge, it loses its charm.

And the in-game cut-scenes... okay, at its best, this is an incredibly immersive technique. The original Half-Life changed the way games told their story, but it became the series "thing". Far too often, you're locked in a room with two or three NPCs chatting away, while you just jump around the room waiting for them to Get The Fuck On With It. This can be incredibly boring the first time through and explains why I've never been able to play through any Half-Life game a second time, despite attempting it several times. This is also where the silent Gordan Freeman fails as a narrative device. Most games would just do this stuff via radio chatter and let you get on with playing the game, but HL essentially creates a bunch of boring, unskippable cut-scenes.

I think the game is still worth a playthrough, but make sure you dial your expectations down. At the time, it was hitting virgin (or near virgin) territory, but these every "dumbed down" console FPS and their brother has traveled the same path... quite often, doing it better.

 

[XIGBARx13]

I think console gamers are sometimes looked at as being dumber and more immature than PC gamers, mainly because of 10 year olds who think cursing and yelling racist/homophobic comments into their mics makes them look cool. Luckily for PC gamers, they don't have to deal with those same 10 year olds as much since their parents probably aren't going to want to spend the money for a gaming PC/laptop.

 

[FURY_007]

Meh, I stopped playing a lot on consoles when they shifted the focus from co-op/splitscreen gameplay to online, if I want to play online I'll play on my PC DAMNIT!!!, which is why even though I don't find the Gears of War and Halo series the greatest, I still respect them for supporting splitscreen, and that my PS2 gets way more play time than my 360

OT: GTA is a glaring example of shitty porting, Consoles and PCs both have their uses, but I must say,

A. PC elitists is a scapegoat term as much as piracy.
B. Even though Consoles are (arguably) better for third person adventure/fighting games, I must say its not to bad playing on PCs, whereas FPSes and RTSes are better in leaps and bounds (IMO)

 

[Netrigan]

I think FPS games have been ported pretty successfully to consoles. Aiming isn't as good (forcing them to use the auto-aim schemes that the PC used in the early days of mouselook) and they're graphically stunted; but I don't think they're inherently inferior. While Bioshock isn't as deep as System Shock 2 (the game it is obviously emulating), it has a control scheme deeper than the average FPS.

If only we could get them off the recharging health teat.

Not a big RPG player, but I can see where the console versions had to take some hits. But I'm not familiar enough with the genre to say whether I think they're doing it to cater to a more mainstream audience (complexity in genres often builds up to the point where it's borderline impenetrable to non-fans) or because of serious console limitation.

And consoles haven't had a RTS or MMORPG that were anywhere near the monster hits that are Starcraft and World Of Warcraft, so the money is still in PC gaming for those genres.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Luckily for PC gamers, they don't have to deal with those same 10 year olds as much since their parents probably aren't going to want to spend the money for a gaming PC/laptop.

Except for the mic part, things were no better in the days when the PC was king of online gaming. Instead of having it blaring in your ear, it'd just be a solid wall of obscenities taking up however much of the screen was dedicated to the chat window (which sometimes wouldn't be a window, just text overlayed in the leftmost quarter of your screen). In some games experienced players knew that when the server was busy to always approach their opponents from the left and use the walls of text to help conceal them (I won't even go into the custom camo experiments that THAT led to).