dumbest plot twist in a game (obviously spoilers)
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On the great KOTOR 1 vs 2 debate, I think its unarguable that if the last part of the game had been as well developed as the rest of it, it would have been hailed as the sequel which improved on every feature of the original in every way. It was a great game, but the ending..ngh.
ON BG: DA and Sleyvas, I didn't so much mean the plot anvils that he was the Real Bad Guy (TM) but the sudden reveal at the end that the whole "Kill the Bad Woman" quest was part of some rube golberg plot to...deal with her so they could..something. (I haven't gotten around to the sequel yet) But yeah, the general "I will now enaagge in an unlikely and complicated plot to get other people to do my work for me when, if I am so powerful, I should be able to do it myself, and this plot will work in every particular" is just getting a bit tired as a plot twist.
ON BG: DA and Sleyvas, I didn't so much mean the plot anvils that he was the Real Bad Guy (TM) but the sudden reveal at the end that the whole "Kill the Bad Woman" quest was part of some rube golberg plot to...deal with her so they could..something. (I haven't gotten around to the sequel yet) But yeah, the general "I will now enaagge in an unlikely and complicated plot to get other people to do my work for me when, if I am so powerful, I should be able to do it myself, and this plot will work in every particular" is just getting a bit tired as a plot twist.
My point was that in fiction (and I'll admit this is highly debatable) the most important elements are characterization and narrative drive. KOTOR 2 was meandering, convoluted, and often simply dull.Dectilon said:
Nor was it half as philosphical as it felt it was being. The supposed "difficult moral choices" just didn't crop up. Take the civil war on Onderon(If I recall the name correctly), we have a choice between nasty pro-independence Tyrant and nice Pro-Republic rightful ruler. Honestly, wouldn't it have been much more difficult if the roles had been been reversed, and keeping the Tyrant in power would have ultimately aided the republic?
Compare this to the genuinely thought provoking trial on Mannan, where we have a conflict between raw justice and the needs of the Republic war effort?
When it boils down to it, KOTOR 1 was just more enoyable for me, both in terms of story and gameplay, which really, is the ultimate test of a game. The characters burned more brightly, the story was far more engaging, and the game felt of a superior quality.
Of course, you clearly enjoyed 2 more, which is fair enough really, but I just disliked it, for numerous reasons, only a few I've covered here.
Lets see, Bastila's reconciliation with her mother was some of the best writing I've ever seen in a game. The Sith school training you to eventually turn on your master. Malak's inferiority complex driving him to the dark side. Carth discovering your true identity. All great stuff.Mr Wednesday said:
KOTOR 2? I remember a couple of characters whose purpose I could never figure out (the chick in purple?), a villain who never talked, a villain whose motivation was that he couldn't find skin cream anywhere, and the argument that pacifism/light side choices eventually lead to horrible conduct of its own kind. There was a lot of possibility, but the game really just wasn't finished yet. Who knows, maybe they'll do a re-release and finish the blasted thing.
Agreed, especially on Korriban. God, that has to be one of the finest world/area/things in a game. It was especially great as a light Jedi, trying to cling to your principles in this sea of depravity.L.B. Jeffries said:
Neverwinter Nights 2 is in many ways another KOTOR 2, again an Obsidian title, but I enjoyed it far more. Still, that had its issues too, but these didn't really come from character or story problems.
Sadly, like Kotor 2 NWN 2 didn't feel finished. Some characters didn't really have an influence sidequest : /
And although I did enjoy the atmosphere in the game, I was disappointed when you finally meet the bad guy ~~ He had been talked up as this sort of tragic creature, more a force of nature than anything else, and then when you meet him he's all "moahahahaha! I'm EVIL! TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" ~~
And although I did enjoy the atmosphere in the game, I was disappointed when you finally meet the bad guy ~~ He had been talked up as this sort of tragic creature, more a force of nature than anything else, and then when you meet him he's all "moahahahaha! I'm EVIL! TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" ~~
Same here. I really wanted him to justify himself a bit more.
"I r evil, now u die!"
Sorry, what?
"I r evil, now u die!"
Sorry, what?
My thoughts exactly man, but sense you stole the one I was going to say, the next dumbest plot twist I can think of is how Liquid Snake takes over Ocelot through his transplanted arm in Metal Gear Solid 2.PurpleRain said:
Really, the man can come back from the dead and take over the person with his arm, because it is attached to them? I first played Metal Gear Solid 2 when I was 11, and even THEN I thought that was retarded.
Star Ocean Until the End of Time....
You know...when you find out the main character is a program created by a program after going into the "real" world.
It's actually the only game I've ever played where the plot twist was so bad I actually had to go turn off my console and pretend that I had never seen a PS2 before. A sentiment that lasted for months.
You know...when you find out the main character is a program created by a program after going into the "real" world.
It's actually the only game I've ever played where the plot twist was so bad I actually had to go turn off my console and pretend that I had never seen a PS2 before. A sentiment that lasted for months.
I think it was to do with the nano machines in the FoxDie virus. Least that's what I've been telling myself. With a bit of luck Kojima will come up with a perfectly plausible reason for it in MGS4. God I hope so.Iceman23 said:
The fact that he doesnt sound like snake, had a bit of hair showing and you saw snake on the elevator when you first came in that room didnt give it away?Khell_Sennet said:
And whats this with "plausible reasons" in MGS? Go play Ghost recon if you want a realistic game..
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
I defy you to prove to me that you haven't seen at least half of all that shit, probably more. (Hoping you enjoy reading it as much as I did, if you have enough time on your hands to get through it all.)
I defy you to prove to me that you haven't seen at least half of all that shit, probably more. (Hoping you enjoy reading it as much as I did, if you have enough time on your hands to get through it all.)
i agree with almost everything thats been said, i'd also like to point out the "twist" at the end of saints row drove me to dump rockets into the saint's homebase. honestly though i liked the game overall just the ending drove me up a freaking wall.
yeah, when the protagonist can't see the things he's doing are making the world worse it agrivates me to no end. i can't think of it off the top of my head but i remember one game where the world more or less is falling apart and the more quests you do the worse it gets, after about two big dungeons/boss fights, you find out the rellics you've been collecting were infact holding it all together. of course that describes alot of games so i'm gonna pick that as my favorite worst plot twist.
yeah, when the protagonist can't see the things he's doing are making the world worse it agrivates me to no end. i can't think of it off the top of my head but i remember one game where the world more or less is falling apart and the more quests you do the worse it gets, after about two big dungeons/boss fights, you find out the rellics you've been collecting were infact holding it all together. of course that describes alot of games so i'm gonna pick that as my favorite worst plot twist.
To defend one of the mentioned twists, i found the origin of the Zombies in "Dead Rising" kinda nice. Sure, hilariously dumb, but in all it's silliness it still managed to get some kind of social critism across. It's pretty much like a spoof of what makes the George Romero "...the Dead" films special.
For me, the worst plot-twist in a game was in Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy. I was alright with the supernatural elements and even the sudden apocalyptic atmosphere out of nowhere was...acceptable.
But adding some evil neon AI Machine Creatures on pretty much the very last minutes of the game, so that the ending is sufficiently epic and "surprising"...that pretty much ruined the entire game for me.
Also, among the good plottwists of Metal Gear Solid 1, the "McDonell Miller, the guy who pretty much comes out of nowhere and is even less important than your other advisors, was Liquid all along"-twist felt kinda cheesy.
However, it was nicely spoofed in Metal Gear Awesome (1)
For me, the worst plot-twist in a game was in Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy. I was alright with the supernatural elements and even the sudden apocalyptic atmosphere out of nowhere was...acceptable.
But adding some evil neon AI Machine Creatures on pretty much the very last minutes of the game, so that the ending is sufficiently epic and "surprising"...that pretty much ruined the entire game for me.
Also, among the good plottwists of Metal Gear Solid 1, the "McDonell Miller, the guy who pretty much comes out of nowhere and is even less important than your other advisors, was Liquid all along"-twist felt kinda cheesy.
However, it was nicely spoofed in Metal Gear Awesome (1)
Easy: Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit. Like said above, it was going good right up untill it added a new (cheesy) villain for no apparent reason and completely screwed over the storyline which up untill then had been this cool mysterious ancient occult story that certainly had my interest.
And in responce to the entire Kotor 1 vs 2 thing... honestly, I prefer the protagonist from the second game more than Revan from the first. I'm sick of playing the amnesiac chosen one and essentially that's all Revan boils down to. The entire game was a one trick pony leading up to the one grand revelation. Honestly it was great the first time through and extremely well done, but other than that the story was a general redeemed villain story with a couple interesting characters thrown into the mix.
Meanwhile I liked the way the Kotor 2 non-amnesiac protagonist was presented to the player; rather than simply giving you a long monologue at the start of the game the player is learning just as much about the main character as the rest of the group, only revealing little bits at first but later on if you become close enough with some of the characters revealing large bits of the characters past that bring them to life. The Exile wasn't some grand chosen one who's fate it was to save/destroy the galaxy, she was one of Revans generals who when she'd realized what was happening chose to return to the jedi and face the consequences of her actions rather than turn sith like the rest of Revans generals did. Then, wrongfully, the council shot the messenger and used the Exile as a scapegoat, directing their impotent anger towards Revans betrayal at the Exile instead. You're simply a character who made a bad call and was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I much prefer that over the 'you are the chosen one!' plot.
Don't get me wrong. I love Kotor 1 alot, it was and still is a fantastic game. Kotor 2 is clearly not half as good really, but it's not really the plots fault. If you take the time to actually read the full story and gain the trust of your companions, it's truthfully a pretty damn good story while it lasts... and that's the problem; Kotor 2 is only half as good a game as Kotor 1 simply because Kotor 2 is only half a game. There's no ending, none, and entire planets were cut from the game because Lucasarts told Obsidian to rush the game for Christmas when they were supposed to have had more time. Pity I say, because bluntly put if it had been finished properly, I'd say Kotor 2 coulda kicked Kotor 1's scrawny sith ass all over the galaxy.
As it is the Kotor 2: Restoration Project is finally nearing completion by the looks of it, so who knows, Kotor 2 just might redeem itself yet.
And in responce to the entire Kotor 1 vs 2 thing... honestly, I prefer the protagonist from the second game more than Revan from the first. I'm sick of playing the amnesiac chosen one and essentially that's all Revan boils down to. The entire game was a one trick pony leading up to the one grand revelation. Honestly it was great the first time through and extremely well done, but other than that the story was a general redeemed villain story with a couple interesting characters thrown into the mix.
Meanwhile I liked the way the Kotor 2 non-amnesiac protagonist was presented to the player; rather than simply giving you a long monologue at the start of the game the player is learning just as much about the main character as the rest of the group, only revealing little bits at first but later on if you become close enough with some of the characters revealing large bits of the characters past that bring them to life. The Exile wasn't some grand chosen one who's fate it was to save/destroy the galaxy, she was one of Revans generals who when she'd realized what was happening chose to return to the jedi and face the consequences of her actions rather than turn sith like the rest of Revans generals did. Then, wrongfully, the council shot the messenger and used the Exile as a scapegoat, directing their impotent anger towards Revans betrayal at the Exile instead. You're simply a character who made a bad call and was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I much prefer that over the 'you are the chosen one!' plot.
Don't get me wrong. I love Kotor 1 alot, it was and still is a fantastic game. Kotor 2 is clearly not half as good really, but it's not really the plots fault. If you take the time to actually read the full story and gain the trust of your companions, it's truthfully a pretty damn good story while it lasts... and that's the problem; Kotor 2 is only half as good a game as Kotor 1 simply because Kotor 2 is only half a game. There's no ending, none, and entire planets were cut from the game because Lucasarts told Obsidian to rush the game for Christmas when they were supposed to have had more time. Pity I say, because bluntly put if it had been finished properly, I'd say Kotor 2 coulda kicked Kotor 1's scrawny sith ass all over the galaxy.
As it is the Kotor 2: Restoration Project is finally nearing completion by the looks of it, so who knows, Kotor 2 just might redeem itself yet.
SPOILERS!Eagle Est1986 said:
There's already a perfectly plausible (as far as anything is in Metal Gear, anyway) reason in MGS3. Ocelot inherited the ability to channel the dead from his father. He's the son of The Boss and The Sorrow.