#DumpStarWars The new hashtag boycott
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Le what? It's actively suppressing the major in setting equivalent of religion, its leader was duly elected and legally granted extraordinary powers, and at this point in the timeline the Empire still has a semi-functional Senate. There are literally zero words in your alternative governmental style that are accurate.Dragonlayer said:
Meanwhile, it's specist to the core, elevating humans against those non-human "others" and their sympathizer to the point of having state sponsored slavery, relies on constant warfare and conflict to exist, is permanently on a total war footing to the point that their only opposition is banking on 2nd tier starships and aging star fighters being used as justification for building and using anti-planet super weapons, and the Empire has a habit walking up to a place with resources it needs, saying "this is mine now", and shooting anybody who doesn't play along. They're space Germany annexing the space Sudetenland.
Constant warfare, blaming the simultaneously overwhelming and easily beaten alien, encouraged factional infighting in command, literally called their shock troops Stormtroopers...
Next you're gonna tell me the Nazis in Indiana Jones don't represent the actual Nazis.
I thought that as a Sith, a pseudo-religious warrior-wizard sort whose people had established themselves as a superior caste on Korriban by virtue of their almost divine powers, Palpatine was readying an apprentice to take over his role? And that the Senate had been politically neutered, stripped of all powers and reduced to little more then a rubber-stamp assembly that did what the throne told them to do. A spot of the 'ole aggressive expansionism also isn't restricted to Fascism, neither is an emphasis on warfare and military force (the Empire's justification for existing is bringing peace and order to the galaxy after the Clone Wars and corrupt Republic, it doesn't require war to survive) and the relative weakness of their chief opponent means nothing politically: Great Britain carving up Africa was a nigh unstoppable juggernaut in comparison to its tribal foes, but didn't magically become Fascist because of that. Non-Fascist regimes have encouraged various flavours of racism for their own purposes as well (see Tsar Nicky "It was the Jews!" II), and the supreme importance of racial classification is more a National Socialist then Fascist thing (not to suggest the latter was "colour-blind", far from it obviously, but racism alone does not make the blackshirt). Finally, while "popularized" by the SA, Stormtroopers were originally a designation for elite German infantry units trained and equipped for infiltration tactics during WW1: the Imperial Stormtroopers are likewise the Empire's (supposed) military elite, not paramilitary thugs. However! You've got me on the emergency-powers-to-the-chancellor point, because I had honestly completely forgotten that bit from the prequels, and seeing as it pretty much undercuts my entire argument, I concede the point.altnameJag said:
Oh, and the Indiana Jones Nazis don't represent the actual Nazis, they represent a nice, easily beaten caricature; strawman baddies that go down in one punch with no more motivation then "Mwahahahaha!".
Well it's their right to boycott I guess, the fact that there isn't even any confirmation that this rumor has truth to it does make it sort of depressingly sad how many people are gigantic hypocrites when it comes to stuff like this.
Still, much like the last Star Wars movie, I would imagine that this is a mostly overblown clickbait "controversy" that involves a small number of yahoos taking it seriously and it being wildly blown out of proportion, or at least I hope so, the idea that a large number of people would be so thin skinned is kind of sad, like the dipwads that think South Park is hilarious right up until it makes fun of a group or ideology they like.
Still, much like the last Star Wars movie, I would imagine that this is a mostly overblown clickbait "controversy" that involves a small number of yahoos taking it seriously and it being wildly blown out of proportion, or at least I hope so, the idea that a large number of people would be so thin skinned is kind of sad, like the dipwads that think South Park is hilarious right up until it makes fun of a group or ideology they like.
Nope. A Sith taking an apprentice happens because having a supernaturally powerful, loyal, and dependent lackey is amazingly useful. Palpatine wasn't training Vader to take over the Empire as ruler, Palpatine was training Vader to unquestioningly and unmercifully destroy his enemies.Dragonlayer said:
Notice how quick Sith Lords tend to be on the trigger when their apprentices start getting a bit big in the britches.
. And yet, it was something Imperial officers mentioned as being a problem when Leia got taken to the Death Star. Clearly, it had some influence yet just before it was dissolved. Well after the timeframe that Rogue One is set in. Heck, that commando raid might've been the catalyst for giving the Emperor the popular capital to do away with the "useless Senate".
It's a play-by-play of 1938 Germany. And considering their major opponents were exhausted or defeated, why else would they build a planet cracker? Got to keep that military on a total war standing.
Okay, wait. Are you saying Hitler, poster boy for Fascism, wasn't actually fascist?
You win one Internet point for pedantry. However, popular usage overrides proper definitions. See also, Literally having an improper definition that makes is synonymous with Figuratively.
Yeah, it's a pulpy series, just like Star Wars. But the Nazis were still representing Nazis.
In the interests of intellectual honesty, I will point out that "fascism" as a political movement is nebulous enough that one could plausibly interpret Hitler as falling outside of it, in the same way that people say Stalin and Mao weren't "real" communists. (I think we had a thread about that in R&P a few weeks ago?)altnameJag said:
That's kind of being pedantic, though.
But I thought it was those damn leftist libtards who got easily offended and boycotted everything?!? But... But...
Well I never!
Well I never!
The Empire isn't "fascist" because it's not a painfully on-the-nose transposition of a particular historical political entity to a Galaxy Far, Far Away, but an independent fictional example of a structure embodying many of the principles arguably (and not incorrectly so, IMO) underlying entities like it. This makes it far more widely applicable as a comparison, should you want to employ it in such a manner, and more importantly helps keep it on the level of universality, rather than having it fall captive to the quotidian grind of political propaganda. By which I mean precisely things like being claimed as fodder by opportunistic parties simply because they claim their Brownshirting is totally Anti-Fa. As history would seem to suggest, the most bitter enemies of authoritarian movements turn out to be rival authoritarian movements. If you happen to think one of the things fiction can do is honestly develop the implications of various kinds of political principles, you don't want to turn it into a real world partisan bashing implement with all the distortions that will entail.bastardofmelbourne said:
Also, on an aesthetic level, there is the matter of "suspension of disbelief", that being what makes fiction compelling in the first place. Let's pay a brief visit to the source here:
During the first year that Mr. Wordsworth and I were neighbours, our conversations turned frequently on the two cardinal points of poetry, the power of exciting the sympathy of the reader by a faithful adherence to the truth of nature, and the power of giving the interest of novelty by the modifying colours of imagination. The sudden charm, which accidents of light and shade, which moon-light or sunset diffused over a known and familiar landscape, appeared to represent the practicability of combining both. These are the poetry of nature. The thought suggested itself?(to which of us I do not recollect)?that a series of poems might be composed of two sorts. In the one, the incidents and agents were to be, in part at least, supernatural; and the excellence aimed at was to consist in the interesting of the affections by the dramatic truth of such emotions, as would naturally accompany such situations, supposing them real. And real in this sense they have been to every human being who, from whatever source of delusion, has at any time believed himself under supernatural agency. For the second class, subjects were to be chosen from ordinary life; the characters and incidents were to be such as will be found in every village and its vicinity, where there is a meditative and feeling mind to seek after them, or to notice them, when they present themselves.
In this idea originated the plan of the LYRICAL BALLADS; in which it was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic; yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth, on the other hand, was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention to the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us; an inexhaustible treasure, but for which, in consequence of the film of familiarity and selfish solicitude, we have eyes, yet see not, ears that hear not, and hearts that neither feel nor understand.
-Samuel Taylor Coleridge: Biografia Literaria, Chapter XIV (bolding of select parts by me)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/6081/6081-h/6081-h.htm#link2HCH0014
It's frankly impossible to suppose what is happening in the story real on its terms if the committee that authored it keeps bouncing us between the fictional world and the real one with heavily signposted and underlined connections, like some dick sitting next to you constantly yanking on your sleeve and whisper-shouting lame commentary in your ear. Even if that dick happens to be your friend and political ally, it's going to get old real soon. Only there's no movie without him there, he's built into it. He built himself into it. Because he wants everyone to know how rad he is. And screw "the interesting of the affections by the dramatic truth of emotions" beyond "LOL@DumbTrump!"
Oh, and as for "allegory", that's what they used to go around performing to the peasants to teach them how to peasant right. "Greetings, illiterate yokels! Our entertainment today is Always A Dutiful Serf Be, being the pitched struggle between Ye Spirit of Industrie and Ye Spirit of Sloth!" But then dudes like Shakespeare came along and started to peddle Pop Trash like drama with real characters. And some people were like "Prithee sire, please tell us which of the Cardinal Virtues are embodied in this tale of Daneland, so we may know what lesson we may recollect by the spectating thereof!" But others got it and rejoiced.
What does 'everyone is hot for Poe Dameron' have to do with this? I thought that was a reason to be cheerful.erttheking said:
I was a little disappointed with the new reboot when I saw exactly how blatantly the First Order were mimicking the Nazis. Similar logos, the speech scene the guy did could essentially have been a coloured in film of one of Hitlers speeches. Why invent a whole new universe just so you can write about space-nazis?StatusNil said:
Yet ironically, despite all that, the stormtroopers in the reboot are a more diverse bunch than in any of the previous films.
Any odds on them throwing in a "Make the Empire great again" line?
Who would've known that "inspired by" does not equal "is the same as"?Dragonlayer said:
For crying out loud; the uniforms, the authoritarian style, some of the politics, certain names/labels, goddamn George Lucas calling Nazi Germany an inspiration source! It's so freakin' obvious that I don't even know what certain people in this thread are trying to accomplish.
They were space Nazis from the very start...you know that right?Catnip1024 said:
The First Order were blatantly mimicking The Empire, just as the rest of the movie was blatantly mimicking A New Hope. And I mean, Darth Vader's helmet, Imperial Officer uniforms...and STORM TROOPERS are all pretty obvious Nazi inspiration, without adding them being a dark oppressive genocidal EMPIRE.
Any similarities to the First Order and Trump are more an issue with Trump being comparable to Hitler far more than some people want to admit.
There were parallels right from the start. Subtle parallels. You didn't have to reenact scenes from the 1930's for people to get the point.Saelune said:
And at risk of straying into R&P territory, if we were to compare anyone from real life to the star wars universe at the minute, I'd say that Tusk or Juncker to Palpatine are far better comparisons - a struggling federation that needs to consolidate power or risk fading into obscurity...
Not surprised by this nowadays. People on both sides of the fence just spout nonsense. I'm not seeing the film because it looks like a soulless cashgrab just like the last new Star Wars. The only reason I'd see it is for Donny Yen. Love that guy
You are going to have to dramatically simplify whatever it is you're saying here before I can really respond to it.StatusNil said:
It breaks your suspension of disbelief to see contemporary political commentary in fiction? You find political allegories too preachy? You really like Coleridge? Help me out here.
Aesthetically, they doubled down hard on the Nazi vibes, but thematically I saw a much stronger resemblance to North Korea. You know, the extremist, isolated fringe state obeying an outdated totalitarian ideology, doing crazy things and not being taken seriously by the local superpower (US/New Republic) until they get their hands on a WMD and everyone very quickly realises how dangerous they really are. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons_tests_of_North_Korea]Catnip1024 said:
I wasn't planning to watch this anyway - Just give it a few months, and it'll be out on Bluray and on the web.
To be honest, I don't like the progressive message Disney is pushing. I don't like Finn, I don't like Rey and I think the Force Awakens was subpar. The only really interesting new character was Kylo Ren, who should've been the focus. For Rogue One, what's-her-name the protagonist is pretty annoying, especially since she's a 'stronk woman' archetype. Having a multicolored band of diverse heroes (Except for Donnie Yen, because Donnie Yen is awesome) feels artificial and forced, too. It's like they're trying *so hard*, and it's this kind of identity politics that led to a backlash.
It's unlikely that this will put a dent in the unstoppable Star Wars juggernaut, anyway. But again, I think progressivism is mostly nonsense.
I'm beginning to wonder how a Warhammer 40K movie would do in the current climate, however.
To be honest, I don't like the progressive message Disney is pushing. I don't like Finn, I don't like Rey and I think the Force Awakens was subpar. The only really interesting new character was Kylo Ren, who should've been the focus. For Rogue One, what's-her-name the protagonist is pretty annoying, especially since she's a 'stronk woman' archetype. Having a multicolored band of diverse heroes (Except for Donnie Yen, because Donnie Yen is awesome) feels artificial and forced, too. It's like they're trying *so hard*, and it's this kind of identity politics that led to a backlash.
It's unlikely that this will put a dent in the unstoppable Star Wars juggernaut, anyway. But again, I think progressivism is mostly nonsense.
I'm beginning to wonder how a Warhammer 40K movie would do in the current climate, however.
