Easy Mode Hate Explained

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Jezzascmezza

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I get a lot of crap from friends for never playing a game above the normal difficulty setting, often going down to the easy setting at times.
My justification is that I play games recreationally, and as something I do for enjoyment. I'm not terrible at video games, I just mostly prefer to stay away from difficulty in games. I sometimes get stressed about school, or work, or friends, and gaming can be a lot of fun when I'm not playing on a difficulty setting that's too difficult. Personally, I don't want my gaming to be stressful, but maybe that's just me.
Gaming can be very cathartic, people.
 

Xariat

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BloatedGuppy said:
I honestly have to disagree, I never felt that the game forced me to take a beating. It might come down to build or strategy or simply dumb luck*, but my point still stands. The game is designed to give you enough clues to make it through the game without dying at every turn. The silver knight archers are stationed a long way away so you will notice their arrows long before they can hit you once. you can also outrun the arrows fairly easily. The giants in the tomb have glowing eyes to tell you when you will encounter one and the giant archer fires at you long before you encounter two giants at once so you know that you have to watch your back.

The capra demon was poorly handled though, as was the bed of chaos, and while you will very likely die the first time you encounter them, neither of them one shots you without telling you whats up.

*by dumb luck I mean something along the lines of suddenly decided to up a point in vitality for no reason and that extra 30 hp saves your ass.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Xariat said:
I honestly have to disagree, I never felt that the game forced me to take a beating. It might come down to build or strategy or simply dumb luck*, but my point still stands. The game is designed to give you enough clues to make it through the game without dying at every turn. The silver knight archers are stationed a long way away so you will notice their arrows long before they can hit you once. you can also outrun the arrows fairly easily. The giants in the tomb have glowing eyes to tell you when you will encounter one and the giant archer fires at you long before you encounter two giants at once so you know that you have to watch your back.

The capra demon was poorly handled though, as was the bed of chaos, and while you will very likely die the first time you encounter them, neither of them one shots you without telling you whats up.

*by dumb luck I mean something along the lines of suddenly decided to up a point in vitality for no reason and that extra 30 hp saves your ass.
The glowing eyes is true, but you can't see those guys until you're down the coffin, at which point you're on a tiny outcropping and there's no way back up. The archer doesn't start shooting at you until you've slid down, either. Trust me. I died twice there, and it was just a few days ago.

There's lots of situations where you can't reasonably know what to expect until you've already died to it.

Stray Demon? Who is going to see that coming? If you're a little banged up by the time you go down that hole, you're as good as screwed.

Havel? Why would you assume he can ONE shot you? Yes, his hammer is big, but he's no more threatening looking than, say, the Demon in the tutorial area, who does not one shot you. You learn by dying.

Nito? How would you know about his giant skeleton adds until you'd backed into them? As I did, and died to?

Four Kings? How would you know what happens there? You basically have to eschew standard protocol and run up and start wailing on them without restraint. If you play that fight normally and carefully you get murdered.

And on and on. If you accept that dying is part of life in Dark Souls and don't view it as a fail state but rather part of the natural learning curve, it's fine for stuff like that to happen. But I can certainly see where someone might make the argument that the game felt "cheap".
 

TheDoctor455

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Apr 1, 2009
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DioWallachia said:
XX Y XY said:
Hello my friend! stay a while and listen:


Unlike what some people say, gamers want to actually feel like the thing they were expecting when they buy it. When one plays Fallout 3, we expect to see a world fighting for survival of even the most basic things (like non-poluted water supplies) And if an "easy mode" makes things like food, medicine and everything else to be more abundant so the player doesnt suck......that would make the setting quite weak, isnt it? there is no shortage of everything, so why NPCs act like it is the end of the world or something? you can find everything you need at the drop of a hat.
Umm... what game were you playing? Fallout 3 had tons of food lying around (mostly junk food), and most animal-ish enemies dropped meat. Hell, humans did too if you were a cannibal. (I think, that might have been a mod)

Also...

what struggle for survival? At best, vanilla Fallout 3 had some hard firefights. There was no survival element to it by default. There were mods that introduced those elements...

like say...

making the radiation something to actually watch out for by making your movement more difficult as it went along (or even outright turning into a Ghoul if it went far enough)

or...

a hunger/thirst/sleep/excretion system. I'm not kidding about that last part. There was at least one mod that introduced all four of those elements.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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CrossLOPER said:
The problem is that if the developer is under the impression that the gamers are morons, he will design a game for rabid morons.
Nope, developers want money. Which titles are liable to make the most money? Those with universal appeal and a wide entry gate. If Dark Souls had kept its base difficulty AND offered an easier mode, along with its New Game Plus function, they would've received an even better reception - and Dark Souls was extremely well received already.

No game should "not be" for someone else. If I'm interested to try out a genre I don't have a lot of experience in, that should be my right. I don't have to play a genre or game I don't LIKE, that's true enough, but do I have the right to try out Dark Souls as someone who isn't particularly skilled at it? Absolutely.

I'm reminded of MovieBob's arguments as the Game Overthinker, concerning the Easy Mode hate. He's right, honestly. Video games used to be an exclusionary, niche thing. They're not anymore, and this is undermining the crazy difficulty levels we've grown up with, cheaply ripped straight off of the arcade model. Some of us loved that exclusionary feel, the sense that some games were meant to be played by the Chosen Few. That's falling apart, and there's a fairly appalling mass of guys out there being butthurt about it.

Not every game needs to feel like I'm replaying TMNT 3 or Battletoads and Double Dragon. If I want to take the difficulty down a notch, it's my right. And no, we "lesser skilled" types are not turning the gaming industry into a formless morass of Easy Poo-Poo titles all dedicated to "Filthy Casuals". There's still plenty of challenging games coming out every year. If you can't find any that meet your criteria, I can't help you.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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CrossLOPER said:
I like the arguments presented by those in the pro-easy mode camp. "It's just a hobby." "It's more accessible." "Get a life." "Just don't play easy mode."
I like how you just conjured up some arguments there.

CrossLOPER said:
Let's go back to the easy part. Does this mean not dying? Are you serious? Can you imagine if Planescape: Torment had this? Can you imagine how much it would throw off the dynamics of the game??
Also how you can apparently mind read devs. Well, that's probably how you came with the arguments above. I won't bother typing more, you can mindread the rest.
 

Korten12

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Aug 26, 2009
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poiumty said:
XX Y XY said:
People like to brag! Yep, that's pretty much it.
You really didn't spend much time thinking about it, did you.

There's a lot of things to consider here, and brag rights are certainly one of them, but in my opinion the most important are game design and gamers' desires for things to stay the same within a franchise. Let's start with that last one.

The current trend of game reboots and shifted perspectives on a franchise's vision has managed to prove one thing: most gamers don't like a series changing philosophies. A few really good examples are Dragon Age 2 and Devil May Cry. In the former, beyond a game that feels rushed, you got a wildly different combat system and a shift in perspective from a slow-paced RPG to a more action-esque style. In DmC, you got a complete story makeover with different characters whose only link to the past titles were their names and general roles within the story. Both of these titles got very negative fan reactions for the very reasons that they were changed. Now, where does the easy mode debacle come into play?

When a game is known and revered for being difficult, when difficulty is one of the game's major attractions and selling points, changing something within this core element constitutes the type of change that will anger gamers. People aren't so trusting of devs anymore, not after so many examples of sequels that changed and went bad. It's why they're already damning Dead Space 3, which is likely to bomb. It's why they've criticized the shit out of DA2 and Diablo 3. Because even though it shouldn't, drastic change nowadays seems to imply a drastic loss of quality. And gamers are afraid of the franchises they love going bad. Obviously, they don't want that.

But there's another major aspect to it which requires a more in-depth analysis. Here, I can't speak for Fire Emblem, but I can damn sure speak for Dark Souls. As I've said before, the game uses difficulty as a mechanic. If you've played Dark Souls for a reasonably big length of time, you'll have noticed that the game tends to stay fresh and offer ways of dealing with enemies at different levels of skill and familiarity with the game. On your first playthrough, you tend to use a shield, block, wait for the enemy to swing and then counter. That's how most of the encounters with normal enemies go. As you get more familiar with the game, you learn to backstab. You learn to parry. You learn to let go of the shield as a crutch, and start going crazy with two-handing weapons or even dual-wielding. As a result, the game is kept from getting stale, and has a longer lifetime and better replay value. It's the kind of organic replay value where you play it because the fights are still fresh and the combat just hasn't gotten boring yet. Difficulty ties in to that, because the game is designed so that losing your focus is detrimental to your experience and it WILL punish you if you start playing mindlessly.

When you're familiar with the game, you start seeing some of its flaws that were previously hidden because you were too busy shitting your pants at unseen terrors: the game itself is small. The areas are relatively brief and can be run through quickly assuming you don't die and have to return. There's a few unbalanced items and techniques that can wildly change your experience by making monster and sometimes even boss encounters trivial. Spells are samey, and the combat doesn't really have that much depth to it. Rather, it relies on the tension created by its punishing aspect and the difficulty of its execution to keep you hooked. The main quest is more or less a giant MMO fetch quest with interesting encounters along the way, but the plot is incredibly straight-forward.
Why you don't see, or don't mind, these flaws is largely because of difficulty as a core mechanic. It builds tension and atmosphere, it keeps the combat fresh, it lengthens the game and makes it seem like it has much more content than it actually does. That's why, when people become *really* good at the game, they get bored and either seek out ways to handicap themselves to make the game challenging and intense again (/r/OneBros [http://www.reddit.com/r/OneBros/] bearing testament to this) or they turn to the game's PvP aspect, with the proof of this being the relatively large online community developed over the years with unofficial community-driven themed pvp events still going strong despite the huge amount of connectivity issues.
This game lives and dies on its difficulty, and its main way of keeping itself fresh is staying difficult. And then the director comes and talks about an "easy mode". This isn't just people wanting to keep their bragging rights, or being too smug to acknowledge that everyone needs to play it. It's just a really bad idea from a design standpoint, at least for the original Dark Souls. For DS2, it would require a massive redesign of its core philosophies. Meaning it would lose at least a considerable part of what made Dark Souls great.
Great post, sad that posts like this are just ignored. :/
 

Vegosiux

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CrossLOPER said:
Let's go back to the easy part. Does this mean not dying? Are you serious? Can you imagine if Planescape: Torment had this? Can you imagine how much it would throw off the dynamics of the game??
There's a rather glaring difference between DS and P:T in terms of how they treat death.

I mean, there are sections in P:T that literally require you to die, otherwise you cannot continue with the plot - and by that I of course mean not "It's so fucking hard" but "Unless you die you literally can't get to where you need to be". I recall no such occasion in DS. Or an opportunity to kill yourself for the amusement of a bored noble and get paid for it.

DS just hypes up the "you will die" thing to the point of obnoxiousness - while in P:T it's just another game mechanic, much less prominent than conversation, going out of your way to find stuff, plot and character development (and for the love of all that's sacred, whatever you do, don't leave that bronze sphere lying aroundd somewhere).

The worst part about DS is that it prides itself on something it doesn't even have - difficulty. Or rather, it gave me a challenge, yes. But what was challenged weren't my skills and perception, but rather patience and tolerance to the game trying to show off it's surprises in that smug "Clever, huh?" way...No. No. Not clever, sorry game. It's about as clever as placing a bucket onto a slightly opened door so that the next person who pushes it open gets wet. Funny prank once I suppose, but just once.
 

Xariat

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BloatedGuppy said:
This is getting way off topic but I feel like replying to bring some closure.

The giant archers started firing at me long before I slid down and got stuck on that small patch of dirt, I guess my armor made more noise than yours.

The stray demon killed me too, but not because of the fall or because I was caught off guard. Rather I had piss poor magic defense and had to retry a few times until I got the timing in. I'm not perfect, I die too, but a death is not cheap just because I couldn't get the timing right.

I always assume that every normal looking or bigger enemy has the potential to either one shot me or stun lock me to death. you should get this mindset in the tutorial very early on the first time you get hit by a hollow soldier's combo and it almost wrecks your shit, I know I learned after dying a very embarrassing death. (and for the record the Havel knight did not one shot me, I guess it's a matter of build.)

Nito damages his own skeletons and you wont aggro the giants unless you go up to them, which you shouldn't because you can see them from where you enter the boss battle.

The four kings did grind my gears and I, like many others, died a few times too. But I don't think it was cheap, I realized my mistake when I saw the third king enter the field. of course in a boss named four kings you should expect to fight... well 4 kings.

I died a lot too, but in hindsight I more often thought "Should've seen that coming" rahter than "that was cheap".
 

Lawnmooer

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Apr 15, 2009
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Meh... I don't really care if there is an easy mode in games I play (Such as Dark Souls)

What I do care about is what adding easy modes to notoriously hard games can and likely will lead to.

First you start off with adding an easy mode here and there, bringing in a lot of new customers whom aren't skilled/masochistic enough to enjoy the original gameplay but can appreciate the story and scenery.

Then the next thing you know, no games are challenging and everything is handed to you on a plate because sales show that no-one has a brain and don't like having to think.

That last statement might be an over exaggeration, but looking at CoD/CoD Clones and the business practices of major publishers (Also the demise of various companies) is it really that far fetched?
 

DioWallachia

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Bhaalspawn said:
Isn't that what the console commands are? And the game's difficulty settings?
Depends, does the NPC react differently in each difficulty setting? if not, then the NPC are making a bunch of noise of a situation that is not really all that hard to survive given how easy is to obtain (for the player) everything you need to survive.

If this were a parody, i would have expected an NPC crying in agony on how hard life is and how there is absolutely no way to obtain anything in this world, all while the player character looks at him with a face like "U Serious? U Kidding me?". And then the camera zooms out and we see that the backpack of the protagonist is bigger than the town itself because its full of food and medical suplies, and are about to burst out of the backpack in any moment.

See how ridiculous can it be to the suspension of disbelief if the difficulty is not adjusted properly? that is why i suggested before that, most likely, it will be cheaper to just add Cheat Codes rather than add more physical objectsinto the world and have the NPC acknowledge the changes.

TheDoctor455 said:
Fallout, or should i say the CONCEPT of a "fallout" (not the game), is this Mad Max-eske end of the world after a nuclear war. Again, it seems that making the items like food or health packs more abundante to help the player, it will only make the setting less belivable when it is THIS easy to survive and still have plenty of resourses for you to waste on even minor injuries.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Xariat said:
The stray demon killed me too, but not because of the fall or because I was caught off guard. Rather I had piss poor magic defense and had to retry a few times until I got the timing in. I'm not perfect, I die too, but a death is not cheap just because I couldn't get the timing right.
That ************ killed me a record 19 times. The first 8-9 because I kept scrambling around trying to get my souls back before finally giving up, the rest because I just could not get a handle on him. I got Sif on my second try, I got the Capra Demon on my third try, and I got the NOTORIOUS Ornstein and Smough on my first try, but the fucking Stray Demon just brutalized me. I almost quit the game because of that guy.
 

Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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Yeah, that's one of the reasons.

I really have nothing else to add. Some gamers take their hobby way to seriously and place too much value on unimportant things... next thread please.
 

DementedSheep

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chikusho said:
maninahat said:
If you find the easier modes too easy, pick a harder mode for yourself and don't decide for me what standards I should be playing at.
And if you find a game too hard, pick an easier game for yourself and don't decide for the developer what kind of game they should be making.
I have seen very very few people demand or even ask for an easy mode to added prior to the director saying he was thinking about it. Even most of people defending it aren't particularly wanting it.
The developers decide of there own free will they might consider adding an easy mode and some of the fans flip their shit and start screaming over it. Who is the one trying to decide what sort of game the developers can or cannot make here?
 

Vigormortis

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DioWallachia said:
You seem to use the tone that a "Dude Bro that plays the game that invented FPS: COD" would use on a casual gamer....even when COD IS a casual game by definition.

You sure that a Dark Soul fan is like that?
When it comes to the holier-than-thou dick-measuring on display in these discussions? Yeah, they're like that. Particularly when it's someone who makes it a point to establish themselves as a "hardcore" gamer. Though, certainly not ALL Souls fans. The vast majority of them are just like any other gamer.

However, the more pretentious of the Dark Souls fans allow that type of personality to seep it's way to the surface. They just, you know, veil it a pseudo-cultured persona.

Even so, they still behave with the same degree of logic, maturity, and level-headed'ness'* one might expect from the stereo-typical "dude-bro".

The truth of the matter is, no matter how the whining fans try to dress it up, their complaints are nothing more than the embodiment of a community of exclusion and perceived superiority.

Something that any reasonable adult grew out of when they got out of high-school.

* [sub]Or lack thereof[/sub]
 

Jedi-Hunter4

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CCountZero said:
Not even a mention of Gran Turismo?

I grew up with that series.

I'm used to driving games being crazy.
Used to play GT but that was back in the PS2 days.

On the topic of pc/console I do play pc games but only really RTS mainly on the basis that if I'm playing as an individual I prefer a controller, an I've seen some good attempts but nothing beats a keyboard an mouse for rts.

Although in all honesty it's been a looooong time since I gave FPS games a chance on the pc, I already feel dirty enough with all the strategy games on it! promised myself the pc was for my work lol. Is it that much easier on the pc?
 

chikusho

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DementedSheep said:
I have seen very very few people demand or even ask for an easy mode to added prior to the director saying he was thinking about it.
The discussion has been ongoing since Demon's Souls.

DementedSheep said:
Who is the one trying to decide what sort of game the developers can or cannot make here?
People who the game is clearly not made for are asking for the game to be something it's not, and the louder and more frequent this misconception gets repeated, the more pressure the developers are going to get from publishers and profit-focused decision making executives to compromise the integrity of the product in favor of possibly boosting sales (and I am of the opinion that this would cause a reverse effect and possibly ruin the franchise in the long run).
Also, if this were to happen, it would be a great step back for video games as an artistic expression.
 

Atmos Duality

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I have yet to see a single logical argument that proves how Modal Difficulty (Easy/Hard/Banana/etc) ruins their experience.