Ebert Re-Emphasizes That Games Will Never Be Art

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CoffeeMonkey

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ZephrC said:
CoffeeMonkey said:
Boudelaire and Kant were pretty much agreeing that Art was the process of producing a glimpse of nothingness and then making the observer of the Art contemplate it's meaning and through that educate him/herself (I don't know if educate is the precise word to use, but I believe it's adequate at least).

On the bottom line, Art pretty much boils down to some more or less abstract object that makes you think about stuff. By that definition (which I'm quite fond of) videogames certainly can be art. Not all games are, but heck... only a small percentage of movies, novels, songs, even paintings can be said to be art. The big difference is, that some media-objects are made to create social coherence, while others a made to make you contemplate life 'n stuff.

X-factor is a mass-media piece of junk, but it creates social coherence and allows two people with widely different backgrounds to talk about something, while standing over the water cooler. I.e. X-factor isn't Art.
Clockwork Orange (e.g.) on the other hand, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense when seen as just a movie, and needs to be interpreted for anyone to be able to make sense of it. Therefore Clockwork Orange can be seen as Art.

The same goes for videogames. If, while playing Braid, you're somehow forced to interpret what's happening in order to make sense of it, Braid could be deemed as Art. The same can't really be said about e.g. GTA, God of War or Unchartered.
Wait, so art is just explaining yourself poorly? I don't think I like that definition.

Making people think is good, but the motivation for the thinking shouldn't be that people can't understand you.
Heh, good point - but that's not really what I meant.

Art is about somehow representing some kind of abstraction in some way. Viewing art is the proces of creating meaning out of this abstraction. So it's something else than just explaining yourself poorly. But by the above definition, I guess you could sometimes see a conversation as a piece of art (Imagine some physicist trying to explain black holes through analogies or something).
The thing about games (a thing which it shares to some extend with books and movies), is that it's temporal in nature. You have to let the game "unfold" over time, before you can make sense of it, as opposed to a painting. What (potentially) sets videogames as a medium apart from others, is the possibility for the game to be mutable - Each instance of a game is in principle unique and that allows a game (if seen as art) to be even more subjective and to put different perspectives on the same "abstraction", as opposed to traditional media which - though interpretation obviously is subjective - is only capable of putting a single perspective on any abstraction. The activity of making sense of an abstract painting, and the activity of making sense of braid is essentially the same. Therefore games can be seen as art.
 

MecaEcco

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this was my response to Ebert:

As an avid gamer I have been interested in your stance on video games as art. I agree that Kellee Santiago's presentation was less than convincing (just because something is abstract it does not mean it is art- even though that's what her company focuses on) but I hope you have had a chance to read Mike Thomsen's more substantial (although slightly personal) IGN.com rebuttal to your most recent article on the topic.
You say that if you were presented with a "game" with no score keeping mechanism and no rules it would simply be a "representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film". But that's not true. Plenty of games today are released that have done away with the concept of points and rules and are still by all reasonable definitions games. So I argue that perhaps the problem isn't with your definition of "art" but rather your definition of "game".
It might surprise you to know then that it was Steven Spielberg (also an avid gamer) who created what you might consider the first example of "game as art" when he developed the Medal of Honor series (following Saving Private Ryan). From the first-person perspective the player is thrown into the chaos of WWII in a way similar to the way moviegoers were thrust into battle when watching Saving Private Ryan. This game led to the interactive storytelling medium known as the "first person action adventure" and since then Call of Duty and Halo have since best exemplified Spielberg's innovation. However, these are still games and they remove the emphasis on points or rules (beyond those of the game?s physics) in exchange for story and motivations. Are there goals the player must meet? Sure. But this is no different than film. The title "Saving Private Ryan" is in itself a "win condition" and just because the player shares in the victory of the protagonist should not diminish the art of storytelling through video games as being anything less in concept than the art of storytelling through film.
Yet video games like Medal of Honor are not film. They are a representation of a story but they are not books or dance. They are games. And, I argue, they are art. Film, books and dance can all be representations of a story and are still art. Halo 3 and Call of Duty both can be won, just like the hero in a film can stop the bad guy in the end. In telling the stories they do about triumph and loss, video games are no different in artistic potential than other media we consider art, and yet the interactive arts remain distinct from other forms of media we consider art because they tell stories in ways no other medium can.
 

MR.Spartacus

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How about we all just ignore him to death. If he's so unwilling to accept what he doesn't understand then let him. Here's another one based off his genius "logic". Statues can't be art because they aren't flat enough. I will not get worked up this coot. Me thinks he just likes that he just likes the attention.
 

scnj

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Probably not of particular interest to anyone by now, but this is the response I posted on his blog.

I politely disagree with your opinion, as I am a firm believer that games can be considered works of art, sometimes even moreso than certain works of cinema or literature.

I would first like to point out that the three games cited above are not good examples. Waco Resurrection, while possibly a way of communicating the developer's thoughts and feelings about the event, seems more likely to be a game created for the sole purpose of gaining sales through controversial imagery.

Braid is the closest, but while it's music, level design and imagery were all art by themselves, the game tended to keep the plot to a minimum. Instead of allowing the player to experience the plot through their actions as the game unfolded, it used walls of text between levels to tell us what we were supposed to be experiencing.

Flower, in my opinion, is art, but is not a game. It's more an interactive experience, and while each of it's parts added up to create an artistic expression of each flower's quest for freedom, I never once felt that I had a goal to reach for or an overall objective.

So with that out of the way, what would I define as art? I personally, would define it as "a work created by one or more people with the aim to express an idea and/or elicit an emotion from the person experiencing it".

My first example, and my personal favourite game, is Silent Hill 2. The plot concerns a man named James Sunderland who receives a letter from his dead wife, instructing him to meet her in the town of Silent Hill. Along the way the player, as James, meets various characters and fights various monsters, all while trying to unravel the mystery of how he could have received this letter. The player is in control of James, as opposed to merely observing him such as in a film, and as a result we feel a deeper emotional connection to him as a character. Each character and monster is a reflection of part of James' shattered psyche, and as we have an active role in the plot unfolding, we have a more personal stake in the end result. Thus, the player feels the impact of each success or failure more than if we were merely watching from the sidelines.

My second example is Grand Theft Auto. It's a completely different take on the same idea, but it is something I consider art. For example, in the latest iteration of the series, Grand Theft Auto IV, we play as Niko Bellic, a European immigrant who is new to 'Liberty City' a fictional city modeled on New York. Throughout the course of the game, we discover that Niko is in Liberty City, hunting for a man who betrayed his army unit in the Yugoslav Wars. As the story unfolds, again we control Niko's actions, allowing us to become more emotionally invested in his quest for revenge and ultimately redemption. To add another layer, we eventually decide whether to execute the traitor for his crimes, or let him (and the troubled past) go. This adds emotional investment that simply would not be possible in a film, which is limited to a linear narrative.

The final way that Grand Theft Auto IV is art is that the backdrop of the game is a parody of the real New York City. It shows us a view of America that we may not have considered, and is therefore an artistic expression of how the game developers see the world, albeit exaggerated for comedic effect.

In conclusion, while I doubt this is likely to change your mind on the issue, I at least hope you will consider my views and opinions with an open mind, in the same way I considered yours, even though we respectfully disagree with each other.
 

mjc0961

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Nov 30, 2009
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mjc re-emphasizes that he doesn't give a crap what Ebert thinks about his hobby.
 

RootbeerJello

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I think Ebert needs to play some browser games. Now. In my opinion, they can and often are more artistic than other games, and a lot have amazing visual aesthetics. There's art that's visually artistic, not necessarily requiring any underlying meaning, and again I think browser games do this far better than anything Ebert could have possibly seen. Many of my favorite "art" browser games also manage to strike an amazing balance between art and playability. I'm thinking games like The Company of Myself, Vox Populi Vox Dei, Every Day the Same Dream, Steambirds, Canabalt, and hell, even :The Game: if you're in the mood for it.
 

000Ronald

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Obviously I disagree with Mr. Ebert's opinion. I believe that anything that a person apreciates is art. Anything. Just because someone like me doesn't understand why someone would paint four different-colored Campell's soup cans doesn't mean it isn't art. Just because I end up scratching my head at the moral Let the young be in love or THEY'LL KILL THEMSELVES AND ALL THEIR FRIENDS doesn't mean it isn't a piece of art. Just because I don't understand the appeal of listening to a man talk about sweat dripping off his balls doesn't mean it's art. I don't care for mushroom and pineapple pizza, but I'm not going to disagree with someone who says it tastes beautiful.

What's more, I disagree with Mr. Ebert on the count that games like Chess and Majong are not a form of art. I often sit down and watch people play chess; I'm not very good at the game myself, but seeing two people who happen to be very good at the game 'go at it' (so to speak) has always entertained and delighted me.

That being said, I respect Mr. Ebert's opinion. He obviously has a very different definition of art than I do, and it would be hyporcitical and (in fact) snobby for me to decry his on the sole basis that I disagree with it. If he choses not to indulge himself in something he has no interest in, it's only his loss. I have no interest in going to The Louve anytime soon.

I would warn Mr. Ebert of the reprocussions of his actions, however. To say that one thing is art, and another is not is to give a person a reason to destroy something, to prevent something from being made. I would remind Mr. Ebert that books like The Scarlet Letter and The Catcher In The Rye, and films like 2001; A Space Oddesy and Planet of The Apes were not considered art.

Last of all, I would remind Mr. Ebert, and everyone else, that art is a very subjective thing. A person may not understand and, in fact, decry every piece of film and every single painting, but drool at the prospect of hearing The Regulators. Bonus points if he's blind.

On another note, has anyone mentioned Shadow of The Collosus yet?

Apologies Abound
 

Yokai

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At this point, I don't really care what he thinks. He has no expertise on the subject--he didn't even play the games he was so dismissive of in his article, just watched some gameplay clips. It'd be like if I, a gamer, were to write an article stating that Transformers 2 contained some striking social commentary and was one of the most intriguing films of the decade (I do not in any way, shape, or form believe this). Actual film critics would be incensed and think the idea was ludicrous.

When it comes to film, he's the famed Roger Ebert, reviewer extraordinaire. When it comes to games, he's just some old guy pretentiously flapping his lips for attention. His opinion does not matter at all.
 

Blimey

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Nov 10, 2009
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I don't even care what Ebert says. I never have, never will.

More importantly, what the fucking hell was that video at the end? My ears almost tore themselves off my head to get away from the torture.
 

Cid Silverwing

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Jul 27, 2008
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I just wanna make a point here.

Ebert here is a film critic. He has no business with criticizing games. End of story.

Hope he gets pwned one way or the other in the nearest future so that he'll shut up about this.
 

Ironic Pirate

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He needs to reinforce his house, because now I'm coming for him. And I'm bringing my fists, named Heavy Rain, and Braid.
 

Warped_Ghost

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This is a pointless arguement because it completly depends on your personal connotation of the words "Videogame" and "Art".
 

Necromancer1991

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Most "modern" art nowadays makes absolutely no sense (jeans stapled to ceilings, poorly constructed furniture, etc) so going "this doesn't qualify as art", is the same as saying "I don't get it".

P.S.) why in the hell does this guy's opinion matter, everything that comes out of this guys mouth nowadays has a forum devoted to it! (in my opinion this guys rates the same as a forum troll on my opinion-meter)
 

DanDeFool

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Aug 19, 2009
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If that's Ebert's definition of "Art", then I would argue that, while games may not be art, they certainly do contain art. For example, Aeris's death in Final Fantasy VII, or the little splicer asides in Bioshock, you can't 'win' those specific circumstances...

You know what? Fuck it. I stopped caring before I could finish my paragraph. Maybe that's why games will never be art; because my attention span is too damn short.
 

DividedUnity

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Newsflash. Art is one of the most subjective elements of culture. No one can define what is art and what is not. As it was once said one mans trash is another mans treasure.
 

Blatherscythe

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He, like so many others, is talking about something that he knows jack-sqat about. I bet he hasen't taken the time to play a good game to the end and think about it.
 

Judgement101

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I always thought that games were more artistic because a movie just needs one 1.5-2 hr plot while a video game needs a 10+ (or in Army of Two 5+) hour plot and some sub-plots
 

Chewster

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Apr 24, 2008
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All of this is predicated on giving a fuck what Ebert thinks, and so I have to wonder why I should. He isn't an academic, he isn't even all that impressive as a critic anymore, even if he did win a Pulizer.

Sure he is a big name, but so what? As a gamer, I'm not all that insecure in calling games art for a number of reasons and if he or anyone else doesn't think so, so be it. I'm willing to not give a damn about some critic who seems out of touch and stuffy.

In conclusion, who cares?