Edge or Edgy: Part Two

[RobF]

Firstly, the jokes on you, you misunderstood his last paragraph. Secondly, here's a hard-and-fast rule, it you've made roughly 10 posts, then don't insult editors, who have much more experience than you.

Firstly, no I didn't. I can read and comprehend words perfectly fine, thank you. Secondly, no there isn't because that would be a very silly rule indeed. Thirdly, I'm not insulting the editor, I'm questioning the quality of the work. There's a pretty major difference, man.

Please, shut it. It is NOT disgraceful journalism. Not that you can talk, you have a grand total of five posts!

And rather obviously, post count != authority on a subject. Just so you know. And if you could possibly explain what on Earth the postcount I have on here has to do with the quality of my journalism, I'd *really* love to know. Actually, no I wouldn't.

Why would you think that Mobigame has even the slightest chance in this situation?

Perhaps because they're quite possibly not a shell company with its headquarters at a mailbox who have single handedly failed to release anything other than 1 BREW port of a mobile phone game that they quite possibly don't even own the rights to in the past 15 years?

Quite possibly because given the evidence at hand it's abundantly clear that they not only "have a chance" but that Langdell likely hasn't got a leg to stand on despite the claims in this article. No amount of telling people to shut up is going to change the facts, dude.

You can't fight a copyright.

Lucky it's a trademark dispute then, isn't it?

 

[Bobbyskizza]

I personally am impressed with the escapist, I'm sure most sites wouldn't even bother to report this never mind go to all the trouble they've gone to, high five to them.

 

[Capo Taco]

I love the escapist and visit daily.

Escapist, escapist. I don't know what to think. You´re such an excellent website, with a nice mix of entertainment, game related news and personal articles. And then you report on edge or edgy: the clash of two gamemakers.

You made a good point in not wanting to join the bandwagon and doing actual research, pouring over documents and consulting with both sides.

But if you have any sense, you would not take everything from both sides at face value. You know that langdell continually misinforms. Game-maker. CEO of Edge games. Do you know what ceo means? "The highest-ranking executive in a company or organization, responsible for carrying out the policies of the board of directors on a day-to-day basis." (-dictionary.com)

And if anything, Edge games can at best be called a game publisher. They haven't made games for almost two decades.

And apparently he frequently communicates in a way while disguising himself. Smoke and mirrors. His lack of comment, without an apparent good reason, says a lot.

In your very admirable drive to be correct, you keep giving too much leeway to someone who shows himself as a deceiver. I bet that he wouldn't have given himself away otherwise in those e-mails, which is impressive.

So I was disappointed by the failure to see through his smoke and mirrors and see what many of us had sensed even before your first article. I think your point would have been much stronger if you had stuck to the facts that supported your opinion and showed those to us, instead of mostly sharing your opinion based on those facts.

 

[georgek]

I disagree with this article on a fundamental level. Why is The Escapist even trying to attempt objectivity? Don't they know the best journalists base stories on assumption and public opinion?

You seem to be giving props to The Escapist for trying to be objective, but that's exactly the problem. The articles demonstrate a baffling disregard for the history and context of the dispute, as anyone with fifteen minutes to spend could find out for themselves. As a result the conclusions drawn, for example that Mobigame is fighting because they think they've been treated unfairly, are so myopic and illogical they become laughable.

The Escapist should have stuck to PDFs. (just had to stick that in for Mr. Nerd Rage up there).

 

[Brett Alex]

What's most depressing is the number of people here taking Escapist's crap at face value, rather than looking elsewhere online and finding genuine investigative journalism and commentary on the subject from the likes of TIGSource, Eurogamer, et al.

You bring this up time and time again, and I would like to politely inform you that I have in fact looked elsewhere online. I've read opinion pieces on The Australian Gamer website, opinion pieces here on the Escapist by Shamus Young, TIGSource and Eurogamer, Tim's own website, hell, even Wikipedia. Because I like to be informed before taking a side. I've read all those, and do you know what conclusion I've come to?

I don't know enough. I, as a bystander as it were, do not know everything. I am neither omnipotent, nor omnipresent. Maybe you are, maybe thats why its easier to throw your weight against him. But I seriously think there is no point in acting like this case is black and white. Even reading through all that mountain of sources, I'm reserving judgement. Because I like to be informed before taking a side. And currently, there just isn't enough conclusive information to prove that Langdell's case is illegitimate.

Sure, reading all that I will grant you that the man is a massive prick, he almost certainly has engaged in morally questionable business practices in the past, and his claim does indeed seem shady.

Yes, it would be fun to start continuously shouting about how he is singlehandedly ruining the gaming industry and throw him in the internet wicker man.

But, I think I'm gonna hold back my judgement for now. Sure, you may be indeed be right in what you say about Langdell, but stop acting like your opinion is the only correct one. Not making a decision for the meantime is just as valid.

 

[Break]

What an abysmal article.

So much waffle to say so little.

Jeez, stop moaning! No one cares, and, clearly, most of us liked the article.

(Etc)

Are you... That was just some huge, amazing joke, right? I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but I don't know you very well, and you wrote so much, I began to to wonder if you were being serious. But there's no way you could say things like that and mean them, surely? It couldn't be anything other than a joke? Well done, that was really funny. Surprisingly dilligent, too. Most people would've just quoted a couple of posts and left it at that, but seven? I'm impressed.

 

[FROGGEman2]

What an abysmal article.

So much waffle to say so little.

Jeez, stop moaning! No one cares, and, clearly, most of us liked the article.

(Etc)

Are you... That was just some huge, amazing joke, right? I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you, but I don't know you very well, and you wrote so much, I began to to wonder if you were being serious. But there's no way you could say things like that and mean them, surely? It couldn't be anything other than a joke? Well done, that was really funny. Surprisingly dilligent, too. Most people would've just quoted a couple of posts and left it at that, but seven? I'm impressed.

Aha, now I see the irony...

Sorry, I started, but I just didn't stop, it sometimes happens. Also, when I started quoting I hadn't noticed the huge backlog of hate for this article.

Firstly, the jokes on you, you misunderstood his last paragraph. Secondly, here's a hard-and-fast rule, it you've made roughly 10 posts, then don't insult editors, who have much more experience than you.

Firstly, no I didn't. I can read and comprehend words perfectly fine, thank you. Secondly, no there isn't because that would be a very silly rule indeed. Thirdly, I'm not insulting the editor, I'm questioning the quality of the work. There's a pretty major difference, man.

Please, shut it. It is NOT disgraceful journalism. Not that you can talk, you have a grand total of five posts!

And rather obviously, post count != authority on a subject. Just so you know. And if you could possibly explain what on Earth the postcount I have on here has to do with the quality of my journalism, I'd *really* love to know. Actually, no I wouldn't.

Why would you think that Mobigame has even the slightest chance in this situation?

Perhaps because they're quite possibly not a shell company with its headquarters at a mailbox who have single handedly failed to release anything other than 1 BREW port of a mobile phone game that they quite possibly don't even own the rights to in the past 15 years?

Quite possibly because given the evidence at hand it's abundantly clear that they not only "have a chance" but that Langdell likely hasn't got a leg to stand on despite the claims in this article. No amount of telling people to shut up is going to change the facts, dude.

You can't fight a copyright.

Lucky it's a trademark dispute then, isn't it?

Eh, yeah, that was a weird rant I just wrote, I just kinda started and didn't stop... anywayz, might as well go through with this...

I believe that post count does matter (if only on a bureaucratic level) because the internet is entirely subjective to the creators intent (and, come on, when you're in a fight, you don't decide what kinda arguments to use, do you?)

I'm annoyed at you questioning the quality of the editors work because you did it more than once. Twice you insulted his work and I felt that it was unnecessary, mainly because he wasn't even siding with the obviously-evil-bad-guy, but because he was trying to be objective about it.

As for misunderstanding his paragraph, from what you said it read a lot like you didn't understand it. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, you may have... (yes, I am backing down. Mainly because I don't want a war to start. Wars are scary, and keep me away from my beloved Morpheus.)

And finally, you say that Mobigame will win because their content has quality. I'm saying, even though Edge games have NO content and are evil bureaucrats, they will win. They have a stronger legal case (so far... we have yet to see if any of their dirtiest dirt is to be unveiled) regardless of who is stronger morally.

We will see.

As for me saying Copyright, and you saying trademark, that is just my mistake, deepest apologies. Although, I wasn't aware there was a difference.

I disagree with this article on a fundamental level. Why is The Escapist even trying to attempt objectivity? Don't they know the best journalists base stories on assumption and public opinion?

You seem to be giving props to The Escapist for trying to be objective, but that's exactly the problem. The articles demonstrate a baffling disregard for the history and context of the dispute, as anyone with fifteen minutes to spend could find out for themselves. As a result the conclusions drawn, for example that Mobigame is fighting because they think they've been treated unfairly, are so myopic and illogical they become laughable.

The Escapist should have stuck to PDFs. (just had to stick that in for Mr. Nerd Rage up there).

Also... what is it with all the new people joining for just this one article? It better not be just one person, that would destroy my soul.

Please don't call me Mr. Nerd Rage... D:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an overall disclaimer to drape over my post, I was just generally annoyed that this article got so much rage for no clear reason.

 

[ASnogarD]

The problem I believe was The Escapists wording in the previous article, where it stressed the sheer amount of time and manpower used to collect facts, in its attempt to be the drop of reason in a sea of chaos.
It sort of came out that WE have checked the facts, and YOU are all wrong.

FROGGEman2 - I'll assume you are not flamebaiting nor trolling in you defence - You shouldnt go about using CS 'leet' speech in a rationale argument, nor consider post count to be any factor to a argument.
You need to explain your rationale in a calm and precise manner to show that you are reasonable and have a valid point.
Swearing and using leet speech basically sends out the message that you are just lashing out at anyone that doesnt agree with you, and that its pointless to debate with you as a result.

 

[FROGGEman2]

The problem I believe was The Escapists wording in the previous article, where it stressed the sheer amount of time and manpower used to collect facts, in its attempt to be the drop of reason in a sea of chaos.
It sort of came out that WE have checked the facts, and YOU are all wrong.

FROGGEman2 - I'll assume you are not flamebaiting nor trolling in you defence - You shouldnt go about using CS 'leet' speech in a rationale argument, nor consider post count to be any factor to a argument.
You need to explain your rationale in a calm and precise manner to show that you are reasonable and have a valid point.
Swearing and using leet speech basically sends out the message that you are just lashing out at anyone that doesnt agree with you, and that its pointless to debate with you as a result.

I know all these things, during the rant I was being sarcastic...

...Anyway, I didn't come across as that angry, did I? Maybe getting progressively annoyed?

But... I would rather if you didn't try to school me. You making me out to be some 12-year-old kid. And it's very condescending.

And no, I'm not flamebaiting. Nooooooo. Read that mods? NOT FLAMEBAITING.

 

[jimblackler]

That IS a hellishly impressive post count you've got there FROGGYman. Just as this article showed us more words = betterer writing, more bigger post count = betterer agumentizing. BAM. Numbers don't lie.

I would like to arrange for you to receive a special armband for use in situations where your post count on this board may be unknown, and your credibility may suffer unduly.

 

[RobF]

I believe that post count does matter (if only on a bureaucratic level) because the internet is entirely subjective to the creators intent (and, come on, when you're in a fight, you don't decide what kinda arguments to use, do you?)

I have no idea what that even means, man. If you're really concerned about the weight of my opinion then feel free to google me rather than look at my post count and you're welcome to judge me further from there. You can find my writing and my games pretty easily. I don't expect you to like either, but y'know, it's a bit more informative than just glancing at a post count to see if I'm a chancer or not.

I'm annoyed at you questioning the quality of the editors work because you did it more than once. Twice you insulted his work and I felt that it was unnecessary, mainly because he wasn't even siding with the obviously-evil-bad-guy, but because he was trying to be objective about it.

What possible reason have you got to be annoyed at me for questioning the article? Are you his mum? Come on, man, I'm sure The Escapist staff are perfectly capable of defending themselves without your assistance but y'know, what's the point of a forum feedback thread if not to get feedback good or bad?

And finally, you say that Mobigame will win because their content has quality. I'm saying, even though Edge games have NO content and are evil bureaucrats, they will win. They have a stronger legal case (so far... we have yet to see if any of their dirtiest dirt is to be unveiled) regardless of who is stronger morally.

No, I'm saying that the statement regarding Langdell definitely having a case is incorrect because in order to have a valid case the trademark would need to be active. For 15 years it hasn't been. That does not, under any circumstances give someone a "stronger legal case" than someone who will actively be using the trademark.

It's the very crux of why I'm calling The Escapist article out. It's got nothing to do with who has the biggest law-penis or who can shuffle papers the loudest but everything to do with who has the weight of the law and officialdom behind them. Clue: It's looking HIGHLY likely that's not Langdell. So when an article says he has a case, well, I'm sure I don't need to say that -yet- again.

As for me saying Copyright, and you saying trademark, that is just my mistake, deepest apologies. Although, I wasn't aware there was a difference.

Yeah, there is. And it's a massive difference at that.

Also... what is it with all the new people joining for just this one article? It better not be just one person, that would destroy my soul.

Well, I'm definitely not Craig nor am I Synnah nor is Synnah Craig or Craig me. But to answer your question: because the article is *that* bad that anyone who has been following the story from even the furthest of sidelines can see how filled with crazy talk it is. Especially that last paragraph.

As an overall disclaimer to drape over my post, I was just generally annoyed that this article got so much rage for no clear reason.

Perhaps if you read the posts and not the post counts you'd see there is a very clear reason? Just an idea. Take it or leave it.

 

[chongololo]

The escapist very slowly edging their way (ha!) to what should have been their initial conclusion. What puzzles me is for Langdells TM claims to hold any sway Edge Games needs to be a meaningful functioning company that produces, you know, games. That's transparently not the case, for all the weeks of 'pouring over documents' did the Escapist, a games site, not think to examine the veracity of Edge Games claimed output?

 

[Synnah]

...Anyway, I didn't come across as that angry, did I? Maybe getting progressively annoyed?

Not that angry, no....

Jesus holy Christ!

Just SHUT THE FUCK UP!

How the hell does this concern you?

Please, shut it.

So why don't you just shut, up you little shits.

Seriously man, there's nothing cool about being a dick on the internet.

 

[Shamus Young]

Worth a look:

Chaos Edge, a blog dedicated to TL and his... ongoing efforts.

http://chaosedge.wordpress.com/

Want to see Edge Studios? Behold:

http://chaosedge.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/the-products-of-the-edge-empire/

(Scroll to the bottom.)

A summary of a judgment against EDGE:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-challenge-decision-results/t-challenge-decision-results-bl?BL_Number=O/337/02

As always, read carefully.

I gotta admit, when I read the article from a couple weeks ago, I thought you'd jumped the gun in demonizing Edge Games and Tim Langdell, but reading those links really puts him back under that light. I will say though, I don't really speak legal, so what is it that we're looking for in that third link?

The takeaway is that his trademark case is not NEARLY as strong as he makes it out to be. TL has been smacked down in court in cases not all that different from the Mobigames one. It's very likely another court would come to very similar conclusions with regard to Mobigames, as long as they have the time and money to fight him.

Of course, the language barriers and international borders make this more complicated, but I think the case is solid on the merits: There is NO WAY anyone would confuse Mobigames product with Tim Langdell's company, which is what you would need to prove to win a trademark case.

 

[Shamus Young]

Worth a look:

Chaos Edge, a blog dedicated to TL and his... ongoing efforts.

http://chaosedge.wordpress.com/

Want to see Edge Studios? Behold:

http://chaosedge.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/the-products-of-the-edge-empire/

(Scroll to the bottom.)

A summary of a judgment against EDGE:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-challenge-decision-results/t-challenge-decision-results-bl?BL_Number=O/337/02

As always, read carefully.

Well that was eye opening. Does this guy do anything for a living except sponge off other developers?

Have I misread the judgement on edge vs souledge? It found no case to answer for Namco, so why did they switch to Soulcalibur?

I've wondered the same thing. They spanked him in court and then... changed the name anyway?

I don't understand it at all, and like all things that surround Edge, the more you know the more confusing it gets.

EDIT: Above, someone cleared this up. They won the case, but only AFTER they had changed the name. They didn't want the game to sit in limbo for years while the case went through the courts. That makes sense.

 

[Shamus Young]

It's really important to note that all of my reading has been from second-and-third hand stories and re-posts of the links I cited above. The Escapist staff is the first team of journalists I know of to do original research. (I certainly didn't.)

If they sound like they're "waffling" it's probably because they're coming at it fresh instead of leaning on blog postings. There's a lot of value in that, and a lot of value in taking a more clinical approach. In fact, this is how journalism is supposed to work. I'd love to see Langdell tarred and feathered as much as anyone, and I'm confident if they dig long enough they'll discover TL is a liar and a fraud. The advantage will be that they will have come to that conclusion on their own instead of feeding from the internet rumor mill. Do not underestimate the value of this, particularly in the future.

Disclaimer: I am a columnist here, but I have no inside knowledge whatsoever and have not discussed this story with anyone at Themis since they began this series. The above is merely my opinion.

 

[CraigGrannell]

@FROGGEman2: Thanks for your informed and intelligent reply that completely ignores many of the facts, just like the article, in fact.

@Bobbyskizza: Most sites wouldn't bother to report this? Really? At least 20 major sites ran this story before this one.

@Armitage Shanks: I don't think the case is black and white, but the more I learn (and I've seen all the stuff The Escapist has), the more it becomes clear what might have once been a reasonably safe case for Langdell is in fact, anything but. I'm not saying Mobigames will walk a court case, but they have a hell of a good position. The problem I have is with this site's coverage, which went so far as major misrepresentation in its first article (including publishing many things that were just flat out inaccurate), so much so that Mobigames could have sued.

Anyway, fuck it. This site's editors don't think they've done anything wrong and there's not much point in trying to argue the toss with sycophants.

Oh, and this - "The Escapist staff is the first team of journalists I know of to do original research. (I certainly didn't.)" - is absolute bollocks if you're insinuating this is the first site to not base its articles on other stuff online. Eurogamer's piece involved plenty of original research. TIGSource's stuff involves more investigative research than any other coverage.

 

[mlkjhgfds]

First, props to the writer for the hard journalism approach.

Many people perceived the first article (at best) as a failed attempt at objectivism/devil's advocatry. Mistakes happen. Still feels like you're trying to defend the previous article. It's nice and all, but if you do think a mistake was made (might not be the case, just assuming), you could just admit it and move on. And maybe next time just present the facts you've got and refrain from presenting such conclusions. I know you meant (and mean) well, but they really sound like they're carrying an unintended message, if that makes any sense.

Thanks for trying, keep up the work. Lots of people still expect it to become good.

Well, I'm thoroughly confused. I was pretty confident The Escapist was going with their seemingly regular move to side with the larger (or possibly more industry-connected) group (I'll bet they get some pretty sweet access to new games from it).

Err. Did I fail an irony check ? The Escapist has nothing to gain from "siding with Langdell". And if ONE thing is clear in this mess, it's that Edge Games isn't producing any sweet new games... or any games at all.

I believe that post count does matter (if only on a bureaucratic level) because the internet is entirely subjective to the blah

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO.

No.


And don't call people "n***s". (just to make it clear, no, I'm not asking politely) Being annoyed at the angry comments doesn't justify your discrediting yourself and disgracing the comments page with that... "insult", for lack of a better term. If you're trying to defend the escapist, for form's sake, at least don't make its forums look like your local BattleRetards server in the process.

 

[mk-1601]

Bah. n00b fail.

Leave this to the grown-ups, please.

Anybody who has read up on this knows that Mobigames do have a case.

And really, the only thing a high post count on here tells me is that the author is unable or unwilling to seek out a better level of discussion elsewhere. It's like flaunting a high post count on GameFAQs or something.

"You making me out to be some 12-year-old kid."

No, you are doing that perfectly well yourself.

 

[Capo Taco]

The escapist very slowly edging their way (ha!) to what should have been their initial conclusion. What puzzles me is for Langdells TM claims to hold any sway Edge Games needs to be a meaningful functioning company that produces, you know, games. That's transparently not the case, for all the weeks of 'pouring over documents' did the Escapist, a games site, not think to examine the veracity of Edge Games claimed output?

Edge games ported their games to new platforms and sell them there. It may not sell much, but it counts as producing a product, as highlighted in the initial article.