Elder Scrolls online. Why they just don't " get it" with FACTIONS

[piinyouri]

I am sure if you played the other games in the series, you know, yes race does matter, but only if you are heavily into competitive PvP. If you are planning on playing casual pvp, your build doesn't matter as much though. I think it will all depend on how much of a mage bonus high elves get, ect. They may nerf their overpowered mage a bit, if not in the beginning maybe after launch.

I have played back to Daggerfall.

And race may or may not matter. If they use a more Morrowind oriented system then yes, race could end up mattering a lot more, but if it's more Skyrim based, any bonuses or penalties will not be as pronounced and not make as big of an impact.

Also I'm not a PvP'er.

Like I said earlier though, I realize why this could irk some people and that's fine, I was just stating my own personal view on the subject.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I am sure if you played the other games in the series, you know, yes race does matter, but only if you are heavily into competitive PvP. If you are planning on playing casual pvp, your build doesn't matter as much though. I think it will all depend on how much of a mage bonus high elves get, ect. They may nerf their overpowered mage a bit, if not in the beginning maybe after launch.

I have played back to Daggerfall.

And race may or may not matter. If they use a more Morrowind oriented system then yes, race could end up mattering a lot more, but if it's more Skyrim based, any bonuses or penalties will not be as pronounced and not make as big of an impact.

Also I'm not a PvP'er.

Like I said earlier though, I realize why this could irk some people and that's fine, I was just stating my own personal view on the subject.

I am all about the PVP so I usually overanalyze that stuff. It all comes down to who's standing and who's on the ground in the end, so all the tweaking of the build will count for me. LOL! For PVE, I am sure it isn't going to matter that much.

 

[Lazy Kitty]

Well, if your country goes to war, you're probably not gonna be the one who gets to choose who it allies with either.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Well, if your country goes to war, you're probably not gonna be the one who gets to choose who it allies with either.

You do when you are the leader. Someone has to make that decision, and you get to choose which side you are on regardless.

You can choose to support your country, or you can choose to betray it. That is reality. In reality there are government overthrows,civil wars, and people who run off to other countries seeking political asylum.

It is all about choice. You can start out thinking one way, then change your mind. You suddenly do not become another race when you do.

Hell in Skyrim, you could play any race and choose between the Empire and Stormcloaks. You didn't suddenly change race when you chose a different side. LOL

 

[viranimus]

Its sad you have to go back to the beginning for the solution. Realm v Realm is a quaint but incredibly limited notion. The solution is not to have 2/3 "factions". Its to do what Everquest did and have hundreds of factions with the result being more like what a high fantasy setting would actually exist as. PVP is moot, but in dual/tri faction system what do you have? Counter immersive "Hey... lookie... We will wage war for all eternity on this same battle ground. constantly shifting momentum but never actually going anywhere. In expansive faction system You engage in PvP for some sort of reason and motivation. Not "seals" "armors" or the instant gratification reward for participation, endlessly stuck in a cycle of wash rinse repeat.

While what has come since has morphed MMO PvP into a short attention span friendly "matchmaking" system readily familiar to LCD these days. All that has come since what came before has been a detriment to all MMOs. Suffering the sting of "We must do what is popular" leaving most MMOs either a stagnant waste, or sterile conformity factory that all shade of enjoyment has long since been wrung out and their population of conditioned participants moving in precise uniform motion either repeating things theyve already done ad nausea or copying what some one else told them to do.

Ive had an extensive and perpetually hopeful history with MMO, but as a genre MMORPGs are currently in a broken fail state and it is going to take something truly unprecedented for them to break this mold and transcend such mechanics to possibly begin to genuinely live up to even a glimmer of the hope and potential they once held for a brief moment

Sorry, forgive the verbose discontent and diverting off onto a wild tangent. I find myself not being able to decide if I am disillusioned or disgusted by what MMORPGs are now having seen first hand at their infancy a far more enjoyable existence. So please forgive the excessive diatribe expressing my opinion.

/rant off

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Its sad you have to go back to the beginning for the solution. Realm v Realm is a quaint but incredibly limited notion. The solution is not to have 2/3 "factions". Its to do what Everquest did and have hundreds of factions with the result being more like what a high fantasy setting would actually exist as. PVP is moot, but in dual/tri faction system what do you have? Counter immersive "Hey... lookie... We will wage war for all eternity on this same battle ground. constantly shifting momentum but never actually going anywhere. In expansive faction system You engage in PvP for some sort of reason and motivation. Not "seals" "armors" or the instant gratification reward for participation, endlessly stuck in a cycle of wash rinse repeat.

While what has come since has morphed MMO PvP into a short attention span friendly "matchmaking" system readily familiar to LCD these days. All that has come since what came before has been a detriment to all MMOs. Suffering the sting of "We must do what is popular" leaving most MMOs either a stagnant waste, or sterile conformity factory that all shade of enjoyment has long since been wrung out and their population of conditioned participants moving in precise uniform motion either repeating things theyve already done ad nausea or copying what some one else told them to do.

Ive had an extensive and perpetually hopeful history with MMO, but as a genre MMORPGs are currently in a broken fail state and it is going to take something truly unprecedented for them to break this mold and transcend such mechanics to possibly begin to genuinely live up to even a glimmer of the hope and potential they once held for a brief moment

Sorry, forgive the verbose discontent and diverting off onto a wild tangent. I find myself not being able to decide if I am disillusioned or disgusted by what MMORPGs are now having seen first hand at their infancy a far more enjoyable existence. So please forgive the excessive diatribe expressing my opinion.

/rant off

LOL! I completely agree. Thank you, I try not to rage about it these days much... Usually just disappointment and sadness now at the state of PvP in mmorpgs these days. Every once in a while I go off again, but honestly I start to say, " what is the point?!" they aren't going to fix it, they just make it worse and worse. When you talk to developers about it, they give you BS reasons, "that isn't possible at this time.." WHY?! because you spent all your money and time on graphics and can no longer afford to make games with the content and freedom the POS budget indy games have? It is just sad really. I feel the same pain.

 

[salfiert]

its a plot limitation and a gameplay limitation, other it is too complicated otherwise, how do you make PvP compelling to players who don't play with friends too, it may seem alien to you but a lot of people do it, the easiest way to cater to both groups is make the motivation for PvP factional and guilds within those factions can queue together, really it is not difficult to coordinate people being the same faction if you set out to play together, and if someone is dead set on playing a specific race that isn't in your faction, then playing with you clearly wasn't that important to them.

and as for faction imbalance that will always be an issue, even in non player set factions you get some guilds that are clearly more powerful than others, thats just a fact of games, its not a valid argument in either direction, and more and more MMO's are heading towards one super server or cross realm blending and really that solves most issues.

in summing up just cause you don't agree with their faction system doesn't mean they got it wrong, don't be so arrogant as to think you know better before you fully even get their system, the game isn't released yet you can't know

 

[viranimus]

LOL! I completely agree. Thank you, I try not to rage about it these days much... Usually just disappointment and sadness now at the state of PvP in mmorpgs these days. Every once in a while I go off again, but honestly I start to say, " what is the point?!" they aren't going to fix it, they just make it worse and worse. When you talk to developers about it, they give you BS reasons, "that isn't possible at this time.." WHY?! because you spent all your money and time on graphics and can no longer afford to make games with the content and freedom the POS budget indy games have? It is just sad really. I feel the same pain.

Well, even with such exp. I do see that there is at least some measure of method to the madness. It is the same reason why many MMOs lack solo content of any real depth. When you have to develop a world that thousands will potentially inhabit, there is a sense of urgency to develop "for the masses"

If you want to see where that other side fails, Take a look at The Old Republic and its "solo/small group" focus. As players enter the world as individuals they all progress forward at their own paces. Some will blast through the content while others will meander. However, when you have an MMORPG demographic that has been conditioned to "always keep moving. Move forward, Move fast. Bigger, better, faster Stronger." and leave them to run through solo content, not only will they blast through it, but once they have they really will struggle to have reasons to continue playing because they are standing as king of the mountain, and otherwise all they can really do is twiddle thumbs and wait as others finally catch up to them in order to form groups strong enough to handle the true end game content.

That is exactly what happened with TOR. That is also why it only took 3-6 months before you started seeing population numbers drop like flies. There was lacking depth to keep those who blasted to the end game engaged. If they dont remain engaged, then by the time the general populous makes it there, They have left and those who just arrived are faced with the same problems as the ones who abandoned ship. To sit idle and wait for others to catch up.

Again, there is a degree of logic behind it. However that logic is rooted in focusing on a sustainable business model than to fully craft a world where players "portray" a "role" (and role not simply being interchangeable word for responsibility) with depth and complexity that challenges you to not only solve its mysteries, but to uncover mysteries long forgotten.

So when the expectation has been set that to be "successful" MMO you need multi millions of active players, then the focus invariably shifted away from creating a world for players to enjoy to ensuring what was going to be the most productive use of time, money and resources and maintain the largest number of players in order to maximize the profits they generate.

And this is why I referred to MMORPGs as in a ruined failed state.

Sorry, ranting again. Im done, honest. Going to bed now anyway.

Edit: Final: Im not a big fan of anything from Bethesda. But I do get that a big drawing part of TES has always been how "real" and how much depth their world was crafted with, as well as players having the chance to portray what they wanted as character in that world. This has always been one of the biggest conflictions of trying to push TES into true MMO in the first place and it is a confliction I have yet to see any sort of suggestion that TESO is capable (if they are even going to try) to overcome. A franchise built around one principle being shunted into a genre that currently exists on a foundation of a contradictory principle.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

its a plot limitation and a gameplay limitation, other it is too complicated otherwise, how do you make PvP compelling to players who don't play with friends too, it may seem alien to you but a lot of people do it, the easiest way to cater to both groups is make the motivation for PvP factional and guilds within those factions can queue together, really it is not difficult to coordinate people being the same faction if you set out to play together, and if someone is dead set on playing a specific race that isn't in your faction, then playing with you clearly wasn't that important to them.

and as for faction imbalance that will always be an issue, even in non player set factions you get some guilds that are clearly more powerful than others, thats just a fact of games, its not a valid argument in either direction, and more and more MMO's are heading towards one super server or cross realm blending and really that solves most issues.

in summing up just cause you don't agree with their faction system doesn't mean they got it wrong, don't be so arrogant as to think you know better before you fully even get their system, the game isn't released yet you can't know

You can have the storyline and PvP that is solo friendly and race locking isn't necessary in order to do that. Look at Skyrim, you are given ample opportunity after you start playing to choose your faction. It isn't race locked into your character, and adding that element is completely unnecessary.

You also are limiting interaction and opportunity to only those of your alliance. Say you cannot find a good guild in your realm because it was populated by people you have no common interests with, but in another realm, you find friends in game, why should you have to start over and not be able to play your favorite character in order to find a guild to play with? There is no reason to add this limitation in the first place, and it only causes problems rather than solves them.

Of course you are going to have powerful guilds offsetting the balance, and the best way to counter that is to allow people to make the necessary adjustments easily. By adding the restrictions, you are adding an additional barrier which makes it more difficult for them to do so. Having that barrier will only result in realms that always lose and a realm that always wins. When that happens the losing realms continually decrease in population, thus becoming the " PvE servers" and you aren't going to have any good battles, just one side wiping the floor with the other and no challenging pvp left in the game. Lack of challenging PvP sucks at that point, so what is the point of even doing it in the first place?

"so arrogant" to say they got it wrong? LOL! I have played enough PvP to see many games thrive and die, maybe they could use some arrogance to make them realize how this works in reality. More people should be " so arrogant" maybe developers might actually solve these issues rather than just make them worse.

 

[zefichan]

I don't see the problem. It's a very heavily used and widely accepted trope in fantasy.

Accepted as garbage, yes.

Sorry, but it's true: Faction-based alliances are nonsense done by creatively bankrupt developers who don't want to give players an iota of freedom and are scared of any sort of emergent gameplay.

Theme Park MMO syndrome. This nonsense is why the genre is stale as old bread.

This was never a problem in WoW

You clearly didn't play WoW, because that game illustrates the issue perfectly. The entire lore is a clusterfuck of nonsense precisely because of the alliance vs horde nonsense, and ingame it creates more issues than it solves. WoW would be so much more alive if there were no alliances forced by the game, and instead player guilds could take cities and form their own alliance.

It's a crying shame that devs are so insistent on having their worlds be incredibly stagnant with no player action having any effect on anything whatsoever.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

LOL! I completely agree. Thank you, I try not to rage about it these days much... Usually just disappointment and sadness now at the state of PvP in mmorpgs these days. Every once in a while I go off again, but honestly I start to say, " what is the point?!" they aren't going to fix it, they just make it worse and worse. When you talk to developers about it, they give you BS reasons, "that isn't possible at this time.." WHY?! because you spent all your money and time on graphics and can no longer afford to make games with the content and freedom the POS budget indy games have? It is just sad really. I feel the same pain.

Well, even with such exp. I do see that there is at least some measure of method to the madness. It is the same reason why many MMOs lack solo content of any real depth. When you have to develop a world that thousands will potentially inhabit, there is a sense of urgency to develop "for the masses"

If you want to see where that other side fails, Take a look at The Old Republic and its "solo/small group" focus. As players enter the world as individuals they all progress forward at their own paces. Some will blast through the content while others will meander. However, when you have an MMORPG demographic that has been conditioned to "always keep moving. Move forward, Move fast. Bigger, better, faster Stronger." and leave them to run through solo content, not only will they blast through it, but once they have they really will struggle to have reasons to continue playing because they are standing as king of the mountain, and otherwise all they can really do is twiddle thumbs and wait as others finally catch up to them in order to form groups strong enough to handle the true end game content.

That is exactly what happened with TOR. That is also why it only took 3-6 months before you started seeing population numbers drop like flies. There was lacking depth to keep those who blasted to the end game engaged. If they dont remain engaged, then by the time the general populous makes it there, They have left and those who just arrived are faced with the same problems as the ones who abandoned ship. To sit idle and wait for others to catch up.

Again, there is a degree of logic behind it. However that logic is rooted in focusing on a sustainable business model than to fully craft a world where players "portray" a "role" (and role not simply being interchangeable word for responsibility) with depth and complexity that challenges you to not only solve its mysteries, but to uncover mysteries long forgotten.

So when the expectation has been set that to be "successful" MMO you need multi millions of active players, then the focus invariably shifted away from creating a world for players to enjoy to ensuring what was going to be the most productive use of time, money and resources and maintain the largest number of players in order to maximize the profits they generate.

And this is why I referred to MMORPGs as in a ruined failed state.

Sorry, ranting again. Im done, honest. Going to bed now anyway.

Edit: Final: Im not a big fan of anything from Bethesda. But I do get that a big drawing part of TES has always been how "real" and how much depth their world was crafted with, as well as players having the chance to portray what they wanted as character in that world. This has always been one of the biggest conflictions of trying to push TES into true MMO in the first place and it is a confliction I have yet to see any sort of suggestion that TESO is capable (if they are even going to try) to overcome. A franchise built around one principle being shunted into a genre that currently exists on a foundation of a contradictory principle.

Oh I know why they do it, they package and sell them like the next furbie toy for Christmas and ruined the games. They have people calling the shots that do not even play games. They use the " well this made money for this game so that is what we are going to do" approach. Yes, it is going to take a serious upheaval in order to correct the cookie cutter games we have been receiving, but I still have hope in time it will happen. We just need to complain more. >:E

Now I do have a special place in my heart for the Elderscrolls series, however, I am disappointed they chose to add the unnecessary restrictions when they are already going to be forced to restrict so many other aspects in order to make it into an mmo, there is no need to add unnecessary ones. The instancing is going to be bad enough as it is.

From what I have seen thus far though it seems pretty inline with Skyrim in regards to character creation/ stats/ class/ race system, which is good, but I am sure it is going to take them a very long time to sort out the balance, if they intend to.

Have a good rest

 

[SonicWaffle]

I don't see the problem. It's a very heavily used and widely accepted trope in fantasy.

Accepted as garbage, yes.

...what?

In fantasy fiction racial tensions tend to be part of the fabric, whether through LoTR-style "these guys are always good/evil" simplicity or Discworld-style "historical grudges still inform modern prejudice despite the disspitation of races as separate entities and absorption of individual members into a wider society" complexity. Characters siding with their race or cultural group, often against logic or reason, is sadly an accurate portrayal of reality in many cases. How exactly is having the same thing happening in fiction "garbage"?

It's a crying shame that devs are so insistent on having their worlds be incredibly stagnant with no player action having any effect on anything whatsoever.

When you're expecting a persistent world to be home to millions of players, giving them all the option to effect the world and the development of the storyline is a logistical nightmare. Much easier to allow players to choose from pre-established storylines rather than throwing together random details and making it impossible to plot for. Otherwise you'll end up with a clusterfuck of players all having wholly different experiences, which works very well in a game like Skyrim but will just clutter an MMO.

 

[Zeckt]

Secret World did it pretty well. 3 Rival factions, but there is absolutely no drawback to grouping with opposite faction members to do a quest or dungeon. Mutual benefit, mutual gain sort of thing. And no wow stupidity of where the factions just can't understand each other, despite that making ZERO sense.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Secret World did it pretty well. 3 Rival factions, but there is absolutely no drawback to grouping with opposite faction members to do a quest or dungeon. Mutual benefit, mutual gain sort of thing. And no wow stupidity of where the factions just can't understand each other, despite that making ZERO sense.

But if you primarily play pvp, and could care less about pve, it does become a problem. Since 99% of my time in mmos is spent in pvp the fact that I can do pve content with friends would not solve the problem or be helpful at all. I still would not be able to enjoy the pvp content with friends, and the entire point of playing a massive multiplayer game is to be able to play with massive amounts of people.

If I want to fight npcs, I play single player rpgs. If I play mmos, I want to fight real players, that to me is the only purpose in playing one. PvP combat is about the challenge, controlling the battle, and test of skill. When you have one side overpowered, you lose that. I honestly could care less about pve content in mmos, but I understand that others like it, so have no problem with them having it available for those players, I just want to make sure they get the pvp right so I can enjoy it as well.

 

[Cette]

Secret World did it pretty well. 3 Rival factions, but there is absolutely no drawback to grouping with opposite faction members to do a quest or dungeon. Mutual benefit, mutual gain sort of thing. And no wow stupidity of where the factions just can't understand each other, despite that making ZERO sense.

But if you primarily play pvp, and could care less about pve, it does become a problem. Since 99% of my time in mmos is spent in pvp the fact that I can do pve content with friends would not solve the problem or be helpful at all. I still would not be able to enjoy the pvp content with friends, and the entire point of playing a massive multiplayer game is to be able to play with massive amounts of people.

If I want to fight npcs, I play single player rpgs. If I play mmos, I want to fight real players, that to me is the only purpose in playing one. PvP combat is about the challenge, controlling the battle, and test of skill. When you have one side overpowered, you lose that. I honestly could care less about pve content in mmos, but I understand that others like it, so have no problem with them having it available for those players, I just want to make sure they get the pvp right so I can enjoy it as well.

So this really just comes down whether it's being sold as a pvp or pve focused game then? Because there's a good chunk of the market that has the exact opposite way of playing an MMO and will never touch pvp. I'd think the majority are somewhere in the middle which is usually what they try to ride design wise as it's impossible to please both of those extremes simultaneously short of cutting the game into two vaguely connected products.

Never mind how ugly it gets when in games skills are balanced the same in pvp and pve usually completely ruining them for one set.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Secret World did it pretty well. 3 Rival factions, but there is absolutely no drawback to grouping with opposite faction members to do a quest or dungeon. Mutual benefit, mutual gain sort of thing. And no wow stupidity of where the factions just can't understand each other, despite that making ZERO sense.

But if you primarily play pvp, and could care less about pve, it does become a problem. Since 99% of my time in mmos is spent in pvp the fact that I can do pve content with friends would not solve the problem or be helpful at all. I still would not be able to enjoy the pvp content with friends, and the entire point of playing a massive multiplayer game is to be able to play with massive amounts of people.

If I want to fight npcs, I play single player rpgs. If I play mmos, I want to fight real players, that to me is the only purpose in playing one. PvP combat is about the challenge, controlling the battle, and test of skill. When you have one side overpowered, you lose that. I honestly could care less about pve content in mmos, but I understand that others like it, so have no problem with them having it available for those players, I just want to make sure they get the pvp right so I can enjoy it as well.

So this really just comes down whether it's being sold as a pvp or pve focused game then? Because there's a good chunk of the market that has the exact opposite way of playing an MMO and will never touch pvp. I'd think the majority are somewhere in the middle which is usually what they try to ride design wise as it's impossible to please both of those extremes simultaneously short of cutting the game into two vaguely connected products.

Never mind how ugly it gets when in games skills are balanced the same in pvp and pve usually completely ruining them for one set.

There doesn't have to be a huge divide between PvE and PvP, they are selling it as both, and it really isn't that difficult to make a game that does both well. It only becomes a problem when a game only focuses on one side or the other and sacrifices one for the other. You can make them work well together, if implemented properly.

You would, however, have to have different balance for PvE than you do for PvP, that is a given. I agree many people love PvE, I just am bored out of my mind with it, and it is fine they love it, as long as they are fine that I love PvP. There is no reason these need be at odds with one another. I am not even asking for " extreme" PvP, just the ability to play with friends without the game making that difficult to do. If they make it so you can play with friends in PvE, why would they not make PvP just as easy to do so as well?

When watching the clips on this, they are advertising epic PvP battles. The battles will lose their epicness fairly quickly when everyone runs to the realm that always wins. It is mechanics like that that kill PvP in games making it short lived.

 

[Voulan]

While I can somewhat understand your worries, this faction war wasn't just shoved in for gameplay - it's actually part of Elder Scrolls lore that these three factions faced off against each other to rule Tamriel. And outside of the war itself and the PvP area, you can completely ignore the whole thing, and quite happily adventure as a group made of all kinds of races. The factions are there for the sake of the actual plot, not just some gimmicky gameplay.

And on a cultural level, races could and would hate outside regions. War propaganda and the like are very common in this sense, so they could view others as actual enemies and raise the size of their armies based on soldiers willing to fight and hate them.

 

[SajuukKhar]

it's actually part of Elder Scrolls lore that these three factions faced off against each other to rule Tamriel.

No it is not, the faction war thing was made up for TESO, and had never appeared in any previous game.

 

[Saviordd1]

Because this isn't EVE?

TESO isn't going for the EVE style of player politics, its going for the Elder Scrolls style of set story, quests, and factions. Also racial profiling makes PVP easier.

I honestly don't see the problem here.

 

[Voulan]

it's actually part of Elder Scrolls lore that these three factions faced off against each other to rule Tamriel.

No it is not, the faction war thing was made up for TESO, and had never appeared in any previous game.

Really? I thought that was where they came up with the names of the three factions previously, and decided to use it for the game. And I thought that the 2nd era was renown as a war time?